Chris Froome salbutamol/Tour merged threads

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  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    TailWindHome wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Froome speaks well but the answer to the question "Are you still using Salbutamol?" needs refined

    "I'm still asthmatic, that hasn't changed" isn't great.

    It's a bloody stupid question.

    How so?
    I don't agree but I'm interested in why you think it is.
    Because the answer is obvious. It suggests that having asthma is some sort of lifestyle choice.

    Or closer, it implies using an inhaler isn't necessary because he doesn't really have asthma but is using it as a PED.

    Wouldn't it be bizarre if a rider wasn't asked about his ongoing usage of a product which he either uses innocently and could have cost him his career or uses as a PED and nearly ended his career?

    You should bear in mind that the only evidence there is that Froome has asthma is him saying so.

    And then there's the evidence of all the times he's been seen using it while racing and the often clearly visible outline of a puffer in one of his jersey pockets.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    TailWindHome wrote:

    You should bear in mind that the only evidence there is that Froome has asthma is him saying so.

    Do you actually think his medical details are somehow information you're entitled to?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    I'm getting a bit cheesed off with people belittling asthma, thinking that you can just say stop taking medication or that you don't really need medication for it. I've had two family members die from asthma attacks. It isn't a trivial condition.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    And if you haven't got asthma an inhaler isn't going to help you. Why would anyone'pretend' to be asthmatic ?
  • bikes`n`guns
    bikes`n`guns Posts: 959
    I was told I had a sport induced wheeze years ago when they thought I was asthmatic.
    They had me on Salbutamol but no matter how much of the damn stuff I puffed it seemed to make no bloody difference so I`ve never used anything since.

    Hardly an unfair advantage tool in my view.
    Trek,,,, too cool for school ,, apparently
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,461
    iainf72 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:

    You should bear in mind that the only evidence there is that Froome has asthma is him saying so.

    Do you actually think his medical details are somehow information you're entitled to?


    Of course not. I'm entitled to nothing, zero, zilch, nada, not a goddamn thing.

    Any reasonable person will recognize a problem with the argument that a journalist, asking about Froome's use of salbutamol is asking a 'stupid question' which implies improper use of salbutamol, when the only evidence that Froome has asthma is because he says so and because he uses salbutamol.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    Above The Cows wrote:
    I'm getting a bit cheesed off with people belittling asthma, thinking that you can just say stop taking medication or that you don't really need medication for it. I've had two family members die from asthma attacks. It isn't a trivial condition.

    This has been my argument throughout the Froome case.

    Ok, I'm biased as i have severe asthma and have also known people who have succumbed to condition. But there really is not enough awareness of how serious a condition it is.

    The Froome thing didn't help as if he needed so many puffs of his inhaler because of his asthma the Dr or team should have stopped him continuing the race.

    I hope his case does raise awareness though and rules are put in place before another rider or athlete takes a similar risk of continuing to compete and end up suffering a serious asthma attack.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    I do not think they should be allowed to take asthma medicines whilst competing.

    It might have medical need but provides a performance enhancing benifit . If not why take it and suggestingbits ok to use because it levels the playing field is ridiculous. There’s no diffenerence in levelling the playing field by manipulating red blood cell levels.
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    No it doesnt. That's the point. It's like the equivalent of using spectacles to correct vision. It just reopens constricted airways as if they weren't constricted. It doesn't make them wider or make lungs puff up more or some other nonsense.

    It's restricted because in extremely high doses (way more than an inhaler could reasonably give) it can enhance performance.

    Your ignorance of this situation is astounding.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    It entirely provides a performance enhancing benifit it opens constricted airways. Without it they couldn’t perform at the level they do.

    Taking hgh because you’ve stopped producing it and returning it to earlier levels is also cheating.

    Glasses don’t affect your ability to perform at the physical level required. They might help Froome from stacking it though.
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    I do not think they should be allowed to take asthma medicines whilst competing.

    It might have medical need but provides a performance enhancing benifit . If not why take it and suggestingbits ok to use because it levels the playing field is ridiculous. There’s no diffenerence in levelling the playing field by manipulating red blood cell levels.
    Why not educate yourself before making yourself look silly.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Lol without the asthma drugs he and many others couldn’t compete at that level.

    If that is the case how can it be that his performance is not improved by the use of the drugs?
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    But it has no benefit to non asthmatics, unlike in your example.

    It's a correction, not an enhancement.

    Like shooting and glasses. Crucial to have 20/20 vision but you aren't allowed to have binoculars attached to your rifle (exceptions for longer range targets noted).
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Lol without the asthma drugs he and many others couldn’t compete at that level.

    If that is the case how can it be that his performance is not improved by the use of the drugs?
    So no medication at all then, no antibiotics to help fight infection, no hay fever medication. Do away with glasses and contact lenses because they improve your base performance. Guess what, if your deaf, forget it, no hearing aids in pro racing as it means you can hear what your DS is shouting in your ear, and without them you couldn't so that's improved your performance. Need stitches in that cut, not in this game, that's going to help your wound heal faster and hence improve your performance.

    You are letting your dislike of one man and one team make you look an absolute Rupert. Have some respect for yourself.
  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    It entirely provides a performance enhancing benifit it opens constricted airways. Without it they couldn’t perform at the level they do.

    Taking hgh because you’ve stopped producing it and returning it to earlier levels is also cheating.

    Glasses don’t affect your ability to perform at the physical level required. They might help Froome from stacking it though.

    TBF mate, if this were true, given the dosage i have to take, i should be riding at the very top of the pro tour....rather than struggling to keep up with my local club :oops: .

    The Froome thing was an issue because there were limits to the amount of salbutamol allowed. However, following the decision on Monday to clear him of any wrongdoing, it is very likely the rules will be changed. Given how critical salbutamol is to asthmatics, i can actually imagine the permitted limit (under wada rules) being removed. Although i would personally be against this, not because i think it would be abused by riders to gain performance, but because it would provide the temptation for riders suffering badly with their asthma to take extra medication to try and stay in the race (or whatever they are competing in) when they should be receiving hospital medical care.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    response to atmospheric conditions or exercise is different in different people. in some people it causes asthma by using drugs to overcome those limitations and level the playing field with those who have physical attributes that allow them to perform at a higher level under the same or similar stimulus is not a correction, it is an enhancement.

    Though a correction is a way of justifying without foundation cheating.

    EG steroids to enable more training load or recovery from injury is just a correction.
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    No it's not. Your view on this is childlike in its ignorance.

    What about, say, hayfever medication?
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    redvision wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    It entirely provides a performance enhancing benifit it opens constricted airways. Without it they couldn’t perform at the level they do.

    Taking hgh because you’ve stopped producing it and returning it to earlier levels is also cheating.

    Glasses don’t affect your ability to perform at the physical level required. They might help Froome from stacking it though.

    TBF mate, if this were true, given the dosage i have to take, i should be riding at the very top of the pro tour....rather than struggling to keep up with my local club :oops: .

    The Froome thing was an issue because there were limits to the amount of salbutamol allowed. However, following the decision on Monday to clear him of any wrongdoing, it is very likely the rules will be changed. Given how critical salbutamol is to asthmatics, i can actually imagine the permitted limit (under wada rules) being removed. Although i would personally be against this, not because i think it would be abused by riders to gain performance, but because it would provide the temptation for riders suffering badly with their asthma to take extra medication to try and stay in the race (or whatever they are competing in) when they should be receiving hospital medical care.

    agreed re the need to protect riders from the pressure to abuse pharmaceuticals.

    BTW i have no issues with people using this stuff with legitimate need, only a view that it shouldnt be used by sports people at the top level.
  • mattsaw
    mattsaw Posts: 907
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Lol without the asthma drugs he and many others couldn’t compete at that level.

    If that is the case how can it be that his performance is not improved by the use of the drugs?

    Hang on, just to clarify you're saying asthmatics shouldn't be able to compete in competitive sport?

    Same as diabetics I assume?

    For the record you can also get a TUE for HGH.

    It's like debating with a Brexiteer, full of ill-informed feelings and opinions with no understanding of facts :lol:
    Bianchi C2C - Ritte Bosberg - Cervelo R3
    Strava
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Shirley Basso wrote:
    No it's not. Your view on this is childlike in its ignorance.

    What about, say, hayfever medication?


    Nope to that, hayfever is awful. But if you cant cope with the atmospheric conditions you cant cope. you are at a disadvantage to those that can. They dont warm the cobbles in belgium for the spaniards do they.
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Shirley Basso wrote:
    No it's not. Your view on this is childlike in its ignorance.

    What about, say, hayfever medication?


    Nope to that, hayfever is awful. But if you cant cope with the atmospheric conditions you cant cope. you are at a disadvantage to those that can. They dont warm the cobbles in belgium for the spaniards do they.
    So what about anti seizure medication? Should that be allowed because you know, with it you are reducing your chance of a seizure during a race and hence improving your performance.

    Can you not see how utterly ridiculous this all sounds?
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Mattsaw wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Lol without the asthma drugs he and many others couldn’t compete at that level.

    If that is the case how can it be that his performance is not improved by the use of the drugs?

    Hang on, just to clarify you're saying asthmatics shouldn't be able to compete in competitive sport?

    Same as diabetics I assume?

    For the record you can also get a TUE for HGH.

    It's like debating with a Brexiteer, full of ill-informed feelings and opinions with no understanding of facts :lol:

    No, Im saying astmatics shouldnt be able to have pharmaceutical assistance to compete in top level sport.

    if someone is too ill to compete, or is physically unable to compete, then theyre unable to compete. so dont get histrionic with me and put words in my mouth like abed wetting remainer full of fear and inability to consider a different perspective or even think for yourself boy.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Shirley Basso wrote:
    No it's not. Your view on this is childlike in its ignorance.

    What about, say, hayfever medication?


    Nope to that, hayfever is awful. But if you cant cope with the atmospheric conditions you cant cope. you are at a disadvantage to those that can. They dont warm the cobbles in belgium for the spaniards do they.
    So what about anti seizure medication? Should that be allowed because you know, with it you are reducing your chance of a seizure during a race and hence improving your performance.

    Can you not see how utterly ridiculous this all sounds?

    its not rdiculous at all, imagine a physical contest where the strongest actually wins. No drugs.
  • mattsaw
    mattsaw Posts: 907
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    so dont get histrionic with me and put words in my mouth like abed wetting remainer full of fear and inability to consider a different perspective or even think for yourself boy.

    Ah, you are. Than I'm out.

    I don't debate with idiots. The drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
    Bianchi C2C - Ritte Bosberg - Cervelo R3
    Strava
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,444
    This is getting silly.

    I've got a couple of salbutamol inhalers at home, it makes no effing difference.

    I suffered in my youth, but these days my only need is after doing very hard efforts in very cold air. But when I need it, I really, really need it. It's not performance enhancing - it stops me from collapsing!
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Shirley Basso wrote:
    No it's not. Your view on this is childlike in its ignorance.

    What about, say, hayfever medication?


    Nope to that, hayfever is awful. But if you cant cope with the atmospheric conditions you cant cope. you are at a disadvantage to those that can. They dont warm the cobbles in belgium for the spaniards do they.
    So what about anti seizure medication? Should that be allowed because you know, with it you are reducing your chance of a seizure during a race and hence improving your performance.

    Can you not see how utterly ridiculous this all sounds?

    its not rdiculous at all, imagine a physical contest where the strongest actually wins. No drugs.
    Imagine a society where the vast majority are precluded from taking part because of some ridiculous notion. We all need help from time to time with medication to make us well again.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    This is getting silly.

    I've got a couple of salbutamol inhalers at home, it makes no effing difference.

    I suffered in my youth, but these days my only need is after doing very hard efforts in very cold air. But when I need it, I really, really need it. It's not performance enhancing - it stops me from collapsing!

    and you should use it!
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Mattsaw wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    so dont get histrionic with me and put words in my mouth like abed wetting remainer full of fear and inability to consider a different perspective or even think for yourself boy.

    Ah, you are. Than I'm out.

    I don't debate with idiots. The drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

    proving my point above.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,444
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    This is getting silly.

    I've got a couple of salbutamol inhalers at home, it makes no effing difference.

    I suffered in my youth, but these days my only need is after doing very hard efforts in very cold air. But when I need it, I really, really need it. It's not performance enhancing - it stops me from collapsing!

    and you should use it!
    Should I stop entering hill climbs and TTs though?
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Shirley Basso wrote:
    No it's not. Your view on this is childlike in its ignorance.

    What about, say, hayfever medication?


    Nope to that, hayfever is awful. But if you cant cope with the atmospheric conditions you cant cope. you are at a disadvantage to those that can. They dont warm the cobbles in belgium for the spaniards do they.
    So what about anti seizure medication? Should that be allowed because you know, with it you are reducing your chance of a seizure during a race and hence improving your performance.

    Can you not see how utterly ridiculous this all sounds?

    its not rdiculous at all, imagine a physical contest where the strongest actually wins. No drugs.
    Imagine a society where the vast majority are precluded from taking part because of some ridiculous notion. We all need help from time to time with medication to make us well again.

    But the vast majority dont take part in Elite sport, thats the point, it should be elite. It makes not a jot of difference if someone needs help to go on a club run or do a sportive, Elite sports people need access to medicine too from time to time and they absolutley should have it where neccescary just not during. (nb if someone has an attack and needs an inhaler then they need it, but I just dont think they should be using it to get through.)

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