Women's Tour

bobmcstuff

orraloon wrote:

Wasn't it more that the TV coverage last year was pants, which it was, than the racing itself?

Both, IMO. The coverage was poor it's true, but the racing was also a very uninspiring.

Not that boring racing is something unique to women's racing I should add. Just that with the much more limited opportunities to show it off, you would have thought a more exciting route choice might have been a better exhibition.

Alejandrosdog

orraloon wrote:

Wasn't it more that the TV coverage last year was pants, which it was, than the racing itself?

Well the tv coverage was pants for sure which doesn't help but the routes weren't that good either. if irc there was one stage possibly the final one that finished on a promenade it had the look and feel of a local 4th cat race.

Alejandrosdog

and its not just a UK thing. Some of the belgian races get more applause and interest when the kids on trikes do a mini circuit as part of the general day.

Now we can all find examples where the women produce a better race than the men on any given day but one swallow doesnt make a summer.

dish_dash

orraloon wrote:

dish_dash wrote:

orraloon wrote:

Read that the 2019 tour stage 3 on 12th June is to finish at Blenheim Palace, which would make a good day for us to pedal over there, get the ambience and finish then pedal home.

Given is a private estate tourist attraction, any idea if race spectators will need to buy admission tickets to the grounds? Wouldn't be the end of the world if did but could see that putting people off.

You never used the secret gate to get into the grounds without admission tickets?

That one at the top end of Woodstock? Might be little too obvious to have several of us wheeling our bikes in by the footpath gate.

Yeah that one! Always worth a shot eh?

Though I'd have thought they will open up the grounds to the public for the finish... would be very odd not to!

greasedscotsman

dish_dash wrote:

orraloon wrote:

dish_dash wrote:

orraloon wrote:

Read that the 2019 tour stage 3 on 12th June is to finish at Blenheim Palace, which would make a good day for us to pedal over there, get the ambience and finish then pedal home.

Given is a private estate tourist attraction, any idea if race spectators will need to buy admission tickets to the grounds? Wouldn't be the end of the world if did but could see that putting people off.

You never used the secret gate to get into the grounds without admission tickets?

That one at the top end of Woodstock? Might be little too obvious to have several of us wheeling our bikes in by the footpath gate.

Yeah that one! Always worth a shot eh?

Though I'd have thought they will open up the grounds to the public for the finish... would be very odd not to!

Bugger! I've recently switched jobs from a company who had offices within the grounds.

awavey

bobmcstuff wrote:

orraloon wrote:

Wasn't it more that the TV coverage last year was pants, which it was, than the racing itself?

Both, IMO. The coverage was poor it's true, but the racing was also a very uninspiring.

Not that boring racing is something unique to women's racing I should add. Just that with the much more limited opportunities to show it off, you would have thought a more exciting route choice might have been a better exhibition.

actually the coverage was dire on reflection whilst they did splice the highlights together in admittedly not a lot of time,so as to transmit it same day, I remember watching one stage that I knew the roads on quite well and realising at one point they were actually going backwards on the stage if you followed the sequence they were showing, and it wasnt because it was more interesting to show it that way to add more drama to the tv pictures, they had clearly just rushed it and got lost in the footage they had to go through to get their broadcast hour, which might explain why some of the on screen graphics are less than helpful which I think has been mentioned before.

I dont think the Womens tour is any worse or any better than the mens equivalent tbf, as Ive said before whilst you are tied in to this model of councils bidding to host the start and end points who naturally want the hooplah of an exciting sprint finish, it ends up with routes stuck routed in between them that dont necessarily mean you get the best set of routes to stage a cycle race on, and then it becomes difficult for teams to change things up if someone gains a bit of an advantage because everyone is checking everyone else

orraloon

dish_dash wrote:

orraloon wrote:

dish_dash wrote:

orraloon wrote:

Read that the 2019 tour stage 3 on 12th June is to finish at Blenheim Palace, which would make a good day for us to pedal over there, get the ambience and finish then pedal home.

Given is a private estate tourist attraction, any idea if race spectators will need to buy admission tickets to the grounds? Wouldn't be the end of the world if did but could see that putting people off.

You never used the secret gate to get into the grounds without admission tickets?

That one at the top end of Woodstock? Might be little too obvious to have several of us wheeling our bikes in by the footpath gate.

Yeah that one! Always worth a shot eh?

Though I'd have thought they will open up the grounds to the public for the finish... would be very odd not to!

Free entrance to Blenheim Palace grounds after 1200. Day out jaunt sorted.

mididoctors

The racing is what it is. TV Coverage is poor as is profile.

mididoctors

mididoctors wrote:

The racing is what it is. TV Coverage is poor as is profile.

tdy same day as men last year was great

awavey

mididoctors wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

The racing is what it is. TV Coverage is poor as is profile.

tdy same day as men last year was great

different tv production company though I believe...

awavey

Entertaining stage 1 of the 2019 edition in Suffolk from Beccles to Stowmarket, rubbish weather contained most of the attacks or breakaways from succeeding, though it was fast paced, till the final 25km when Abby-Mae Parkinson managed to make a 90sec gap on the peloton, but the sprinters teams reeled her back in over the final 7km (though she ended up with the combativity prize) and Jolien D'Hoore took the win of the first stage for the second consecutive year, bonus seconds awarded means the GC ended up looking like this.

1 Jolien D'Hoore (Bel) Boels Dolmans Cyclingteam 4:09:02
2 Amy Pieters (Ned) Boels Dolmans Cyclingteam 0:00:04
3 Lisa Brennauer (Ger) WNT-Rotor Pro Cycling 0:00:06

Stage 2 is a 62.5km (25lap) run around the Kent Cyclopark track, which should be different

orraloon

What was that moto doing trying to force its way past on that climb, narrow road, full peloton, no space? Did that contribute to the chute?

photonic69

orraloon wrote:

What was that moto doing trying to force its way past on that climb, narrow road, full peloton, no space? Did that contribute to the chute?

Yeah I saw that and wondered the same. Absolute f'ing ejit!! The standard of Moto drivers seems to be getting worse and worse.

Alejandrosdog

awavey wrote:

Stage 2 is a 62.5km (25lap) run around the Kent Cyclopark track, which should be different

I hope theyve finished playing and tidyed up so the tuesday night 4th cats race can start on time.

Seriously an hour and 20 mins of a closed road crit. And the same prize money as the men???? Is this really the best they can do.

Next we could have a double stager, hillingdon in the morning and and individual time trial round 2 laps of thruxton. road bikes only.

EDIT I MIGHT BE WRONG with the 1hour and 20mins, according to the schedule they're "expected" to travel at about 24mph average. I suspect theyll be a bit quicker........... or maybe not.

This race is a massive joke and a good example of how mens and womens racing shouldnt be given equal billing.

blazing_saddles

Cor, stage 2 is a bit hopeless.
Just watched stage 1: another of those stages unique to women's racing where nobody tries for the breakaway and everybody just rode in a bunch to inside 25kms to go. Even then it was just a lone, youthful attempt.
On the subject of equal pay, Jo Rowsell was quite vocal about it during commentary.
Assuming it all boils down to funding through the usual channels, (i.e. sponsorship) I wonder if the lack of, is why we see stages like this: very little pressure upon riders to get up the road and show off the brand?

larkim

Broadly across all sport I think prize money etc should be equal ONLY if the women's version can be seen to be generating a similar economic impact. i.e. riders are worth the same in sponsoship terms, TV viewing figures, audience figures, spectator figures etc are in the same ballpark.

I'm well aware though that that is a chicken and egg thing, so for some sports the women's events need to be given an up front stimulus to raise the status etc, and I think cycling is in that phase. What the winners gain in terms of prize money, the rest of the peloton are probably not yet gaining in terms of team salaries, sponsorship, appearance fees etc.

There should be no good reason why watching women race each other on bikes is any less exciting to watch than watching men on bikes. Clearly though at the moment the depth in the peloton isn't quite the same as the men's, hence the occasionally lacklustre races or stages. (Though obviously the men have their fair share of poor races too)

mididoctors

Weather is s factor I feel . Bit wet.

mididoctors

I think a min decent wage would go s long way. There is a big market for women's cycling. I see no reason why money shouldn't be thrown at women's racing. A lot of women's racing is plenty entertaining. Percentage wise on par with men's in terms with duff to good races to watch.

It's the race parcours and coverage that is lacking to pull in the money. Intervention from the UCI others is required. The French government subsidies the tour. they should insist on a decent women's tandem event? As a sponsor I would but money into the TDY women's race given its coverage. wtf happened to the TOC? That looked to be moving in the right direction too till this year.

larkim

I think some sports lend themselves to equality of interest (cycling is one) because in the main you can't really see the 10-12% performance differential between men and women in terms of the actual sporting contest itself.

Whereas in others, I think it is more evident - e.g. (IMHO) women's tennis is less interesting to watch because they use the same dimensions of the court, but are neither as fast nor as powerful as men. Ditto for women's football - if the pitch was perhaps 10% shorter all round to account for the performance disadvantage then it might look faster as a game overall.

I hope that's not just my inherent prejudices talking (it may be!)...

Alejandrosdog

i think i might ride out and see tomorrows stage. If i can be bothered

awavey

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Cor, stage 2 is a bit hopeless.
Just watched stage 1: another of those stages unique to women's racing where nobody tries for the breakaway and everybody just rode in a bunch to inside 25kms to go. Even then it was just a lone, youthful attempt.
On the subject of equal pay, Jo Rowsell was quite vocal about it during commentary.
Assuming it all boils down to funding through the usual channels, (i.e. sponsorship) I wonder if the lack of, is why we see stages like this: very little pressure upon riders to get up the road and show off the brand?

I think todays stage, ignoring the usual stuff about the race goes where councils pay for it to go, was as much about trying something different (and it would have been perfectly suited IMO to test the waters with live coverage given its contained location so you dont need to pay for planes/helicopters just a big truck with a satellite dish) as it was essentially about being a gap filler stage to allow them to extend the distance of the other stages distance, you can only average 140km per day and max at 160km those are UCI regs, well yesterdays was 157km, Thursdays is 158km,and their 6 stage average works out at ~130km, so they needed to have this essentially short stage crit like this to balance out the rest of the race, thats not the fault of womens cycling, those are just the UCI regs.

yesterdays stage, the weather was horrible it was the wettest day in East Anglia for over 2 years, roads were very slippy & greasy, lots of overhanging trees, so no-one was going to take stupid risks on day 1 of a 6 day race, and it was a very fast mostly flat course, though those constant rolling ups/downs can be really leg strength sapping even in perfect conditions which these were not. But it wasnt going to be anything but a bunch sprint at the end (its designed that way imo) ,so the sprinters teams were always going to park the bus on any attacks that tried to develop and we've said countless times the way the bonus seconds on intermediate sprints work and at the finish on such a short stage race,GC contenders teams were equally going to block things and only let a lone rider sneak up the road if they didnt think they are going to be in contention for a win as once youve got that time advantage its very difficult then for the other teams to counter, previous two editions have been won in that way by getting an early lead and protecting it through time bonus. so I dont think the coverage reflected all the moves/counter moves & race strategies that were going on.

Stage 3 is Henley on Thames to Blenheim Palace 145.1km, and theres a cat 1 climb just under 10km from the start. followed very shortly by a cat2, and theres plenty more climbing to come, so I do think the racing will get more animated as the week progresses and big splits will appear.

but just for the record as Im guessing no-one is much fussed with spoilers Vos took the win ahead of Lizzie Deignan and Sarah Roy, and takes the overall GC lead with Lizzie and Amy Pieters both at +9 secs back, and some strong teams/riders positioned not so far back

1 Marianne Vos (Ned) Ccc - Liv 05:43:14
2 Lizzie Deignan (Gbr) Trek - Segafredo 0:00:09
3 Amy Pieters (Ned) Boels Dolmans 0:00:09

figbat

Britwell Hill is a Cat 2?! :shock: I've just realised I climbed that last year - I thought it felt hard (I'm no climber nor, indeed, anything more than an occasional leisure cyclist). Oh well, there goes my 3,400-ish place on Strava.

On related matters, do they sweep the roads ahead of the ride? I drove a section on the way to work this morning and on the descent into Goring-on-Thames there are some patches of sizeable gravel in the road, washed in by the recent rain. The sort of gravel, in the sort of location, that got me a front wheel puncture at speed last year.

bobmcstuff

figbat wrote:

Britwell Hill is a Cat 2?! :shock: I've just realised I climbed that last year - I thought it felt hard (I'm no climber nor, indeed, anything more than an occasional leisure cyclist). Oh well, there goes my 3,400-ish place on Strava.

On related matters, do they sweep the roads ahead of the ride? I drove a section on the way to work this morning and on the descent into Goring-on-Thames there are some patches of sizeable gravel in the road, washed in by the recent rain. The sort of gravel, in the sort of location, that got me a front wheel puncture at speed last year.

The categories are somewhat arbitrary as they are determined by the race organisers. In many cases there are uncategorised climbs which are as hard as some of the categorised climbs. They also try to use the KOM competition to encourage breakaways or otherwise attacking, they might have decided they wanted a cat 2 there to encourage some activity from the KOM contenders.

If I found the strava segment OK, it's a cat 4 on Strava (which uses the same/similar basic formula as the TdF but obviously without the discretionary variations).

https://veloviewer.com/segment/2528761#_=_

DeVlaeminck

larkim wrote:

I think some sports lend themselves to equality of interest (cycling is one) because in the main you can't really see the 10-12% performance differential between men and women in terms of the actual sporting contest itself.

Whereas in others, I think it is more evident - e.g. (IMHO) women's tennis is less interesting to watch because they use the same dimensions of the court, but are neither as fast nor as powerful as men. Ditto for women's football - if the pitch was perhaps 10% shorter all round to account for the performance disadvantage then it might look faster as a game overall.

I hope that's not just my inherent prejudices talking (it may be!)...

I see your point but a counter argument is that some sports - and I would say football in one - the men's game has become too much about pace and power and it actually makes the skill level appear less than it is. Maybe not at world class level but watch a Championship game and modern footballs, modern pitches and modern athletes combine to give so little time on the ball that I think the women's game now can be pretty much as good to watch.

I've heard the same said of tennis but don't watch a lot to judge myself.

philbar72

bobmcstuff wrote:

figbat wrote:

Britwell Hill is a Cat 2?! :shock: I've just realised I climbed that last year - I thought it felt hard (I'm no climber nor, indeed, anything more than an occasional leisure cyclist). Oh well, there goes my 3,400-ish place on Strava.

On related matters, do they sweep the roads ahead of the ride? I drove a section on the way to work this morning and on the descent into Goring-on-Thames there are some patches of sizeable gravel in the road, washed in by the recent rain. The sort of gravel, in the sort of location, that got me a front wheel puncture at speed last year.

The categories are somewhat arbitrary as they are determined by the race organisers. In many cases there are uncategorised climbs which are as hard as some of the categorised climbs. They also try to use the KOM competition to encourage breakaways or otherwise attacking, they might have decided they wanted a cat 2 there to encourage some activity from the KOM contenders.

If I found the strava segment OK, it's a cat 4 on Strava (which uses the same/similar basic formula as the TdF but obviously without the discretionary variations).

https://veloviewer.com/segment/2528761#_=_

britwell is a great little climb but has definite pinch points. its no more than a cat 4 climb in anyones book. could be tactical. it also has a load of gravelly rubbish at its base. possible punctures for a peloton...

Alejandrosdog

philbar72 wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

figbat wrote:

Britwell Hill is a Cat 2?! :shock: I've just realised I climbed that last year - I thought it felt hard (I'm no climber nor, indeed, anything more than an occasional leisure cyclist). Oh well, there goes my 3,400-ish place on Strava.

On related matters, do they sweep the roads ahead of the ride? I drove a section on the way to work this morning and on the descent into Goring-on-Thames there are some patches of sizeable gravel in the road, washed in by the recent rain. The sort of gravel, in the sort of location, that got me a front wheel puncture at speed last year.

The categories are somewhat arbitrary as they are determined by the race organisers. In many cases there are uncategorised climbs which are as hard as some of the categorised climbs. They also try to use the KOM competition to encourage breakaways or otherwise attacking, they might have decided they wanted a cat 2 there to encourage some activity from the KOM contenders.

If I found the strava segment OK, it's a cat 4 on Strava (which uses the same/similar basic formula as the TdF but obviously without the discretionary variations).

https://veloviewer.com/segment/2528761#_=_

britwell is a great little climb but has definite pinch points. its no more than a cat 4 climb in anyones book. could be tactical. it also has a load of gravelly rubbish at its base. possible punctures for a peloton...

theyd have to racing hard to have problems on any of the hills today though it looks good for a little break since the after the chilterns its a VERY easy route until the finale.

larkim

DeVlaeminck wrote:

larkim wrote:

I think some sports lend themselves to equality of interest (cycling is one) because in the main you can't really see the 10-12% performance differential between men and women in terms of the actual sporting contest itself.

Whereas in others, I think it is more evident - e.g. (IMHO) women's tennis is less interesting to watch because they use the same dimensions of the court, but are neither as fast nor as powerful as men. Ditto for women's football - if the pitch was perhaps 10% shorter all round to account for the performance disadvantage then it might look faster as a game overall.

I hope that's not just my inherent prejudices talking (it may be!)...

I see your point but a counter argument is that some sports - and I would say football in one - the men's game has become too much about pace and power and it actually makes the skill level appear less than it is. Maybe not at world class level but watch a Championship game and modern footballs, modern pitches and modern athletes combine to give so little time on the ball that I think the women's game now can be pretty much as good to watch.

I've heard the same said of tennis but don't watch a lot to judge myself.

Yep, that can definitely be true also. There was an argument that a few years ago the men's tennis game had become boring because their strength and the equipment over-ran reaction times and the dimensions of the court.

There's definitely a case for appropriate adjustments to sporting arena size or implements to account for the known performance differential. Best example is 100m hurdles for women vs 110m for men - whilst the hurdle height is arguably too easy for women (the difference between the men's height and the women's height is disproportionate to the average difference in height between men and women), the overall distance simply reflects leg length in terms of getting 3 strides in per hurdle.

I'd accept that different sized pitches / courts etc do present practical issues of course.

Football is actually a very positive example currently of where there has been an investment made by predominantly male hierarchies to get female football on the radar of the average sports fan, where it wasn't a few years ago, which is great to see. It will still take quite a while though before we see 45,000 crowds full of hooligans cheering on Liverpool Women vs Man Utd Women.

Anyway, back to the cycling...

bobmcstuff

In tennis cant they just change the balls or racquet specs to slow the ball down?

RichN95.

A day for star name crashes - Vos has abandoned

awavey

Trixi Worrack taken to hospital too, fingers crossed it's just precautionary and no serious injuries to any of the riders