Campagnolo 12 speed...

cal_stewart

Didn’t we do this in 09 with 11sp?

Love campagnolo but at £300 for a cassette I’ll wait to see if they release Chorus for MY20.

pilot_pete

That plastic rear derailleur certainly isn’t a looker...

And that comes from someone who really is their target market. I lusted after Super Record as a 14yo lad in the early 80s and even draughted the chainset in my technical drawing class.

Having gone Campagnolo when I got back into cycling ten years ago I loved the look of the groups then, especially the chainsets but unreliability, lack of stockists and repairers and constant shifting issues made me go Shimano a few years back. Add on the massive price difference for the top end groups and I am afraid I am not drawn to going back anytime soon. I’ll stick with Dura Ace di2.

PP

neeb

thecycleclinic wrote:

They won't though. I think the rd geometry precludes anything smaller. This groupsets is only available with 53/39 or 52/36. I use the former only do the cassette choice suits me fine. This is a groupsets for racers and is focused on them.

They gave centaur and potenza for everyone else

There's a 50/34 option too. And somehow I don't think that these new groups are mainly aimed at racers, not at those prices.. ;-)

A 12sp cassette going up to 29 would be great for the Alps on a 52/36 or 50/34, and a good all-rounder on a 53/39, but for all except the 50/34 chainset I'd want to start at 12, not 11.

Moving from my current most common setup (52/36, 12-27), which does me for *almost* anywhere, the tightest sprocket option in the new 12 speed (11-29) would actually involve me losing a gear inside my useful range while adding gears at either end I'd hardly ever use. Mad! So in effect I'd be going from 11sp to 10sp while adding weight and fragility..

There are times I might want lower gears of course, but I'd much rather fit a different cassette for those rare trips than cycle around with unnecessary and annoying gaps between my gears 95% of the time. Or even better, swap chainrings on a chainset system that's designed to take any sizes like the current Shimano (maybe that's true for the new Campag. 12sp too?).

But if they come out with a 12-29 then at least I'd be able to keep the same spacing, while adding a low gear that I would use in some situations.. Actually, that could be pretty good. But having to gain a gap in exchange for an 11 sprocket I don't need is a dealbreaker for me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Campagnolo fan and a major update is always pretty exciting. They've done really well to add an extra sprocket while keeping the same spacing (just a pity it's a useless one for me!).

Sprocket options aside, the elephant in the room is the price however. Looking at the weights (which, let's face it, is all you are paying for in the top 2 or 3 tiers of all of the manufacturers' groups), the new 12sp Record is effectively a Chorus replacement and new SR is a Record/SR merger (there's much more of a weight difference between the new SR and Record than between the old SR and Record, more akin to the difference between old Record/SR and Chorus). But 12sp rim brake Record (read Chorus, i.e. Ultegra equivalent) is going to be priced at £1750, which means that 12sp rim brake SR (haven't seen a price quoted yet) must be at least £2300-£2500.. These prices are between two and three times the current going rate for Ultegra and Dura Ace! I guess they will come down bit after release, but probably not to less than twice the cost of their Shimano equivalents.

Bottom line - I might buy it eventually if they release a 12-29 cassette and half the price..

pblakeney

neeb wrote:

...Or even better, swap chainrings on a chainset system that's designed to take any sizes like the current Shimano (maybe that's true for the new Campag. 12sp too?...

Bottom line - I might buy it eventually if they release a 12-29 cassette and half the price..

Potenza does the chain rings, and Miche do the half price. (In 11 speed currently).
But I hate the chunky 4 spoke design. :evil:

cal_stewart

I don’t think there binning Chorus. They did the same with EPS by releasing it a year later.

Moonbiker

I reckon the manufacturing cost of an 8 speed group is identical to a 12 speed one so claris & super record same price to make but different markup.


Each company could just make one universal groupset if they didn't need to create artificial price points for different market segments.

Will 13 ever happen?

pblakeney

Moonbiker wrote:

I reckon the manufacturing cost of an 8 speed group is identical to a 12 speed one so claris & super record same price to make but different markup.

You reckon wrong.

green_mark

Moonbiker

You reckon wrong.

Plz explain

Are they not all mass producted by robots/humans on semi automatic production lines with mostly low paid labour?

plus R & D cost

Or is Super Record is hand crafted by skilled italian artisans.

some infos on SRAM red

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGTUCeHLxfI

Does say Electronic is lot harder to make than mechanical & I suppose carbon parts cost more.

I Remeber PX were selling some italian carbon cranks for £49 yrs ago though. Regret noy buying them.

pblakeney

Moonbiker wrote:

You reckon wrong.

Plz explain....

A multitude of reasons starting with materials and functionality but in the simplest of explanations tooling and costs for machining 12 sprockets instead of 8. And that R&D does not come cheaply.

keezx

Moonbiker wrote:

I Remeber PX were selling some italian carbon cranks for £49 yrs ago though. Regret noy buying them.

I bought the very last one, because i couldn't find a Campagnolo one in 175 mm for a decent price.
They were made by Gigantex in Taiwan though....still happy with this crankset on my China-made titanium bike.

PS , this bike is equipped with 2x or 3x 9 speed in the high mountains, maybe it will ever be 2x or 3x 10 speed, maybe not.
Nobody tells me how many cogs I need.

Tiesetrotter

I'll have to have a go. But it is a whacking premium to put on your groupset.

The selling point for me is the manual Ultra Shift and always has been. I hit the button it is one, two or three gears instantly. Same with the lever only it's 5 gears. Add in the fact you can drop the front mech at the same time and that means virtually any gear ratio change is available at less than half a second if your hand can move fast enough to do it. It's class leading and always has been in terms of flexibility and speed of change. But it comes at a premium price point.

No other groupset comes close. Go to electric though, zero difference. Check out the SR Disc EPS price. I think I'll take the family on a 5* holiday instead.

pilot_pete

Tiesetrotter wrote:

No other groupset comes close. Go to electric though, zero difference. Check out the SR Disc EPS price. I think I'll take the family on a 5* holiday instead.

well, you could go Di2 and get instant shifting up and down as many gears as you want to go. You can set the shifting speed that you prefer. You can get the whole Ultegra 6870 Group for £899.99 from Merlin and go on a 4* holiday instead...

PP

me-109

Merlin?! Didn't I read a thread recently about their customer service? What was it now....

pilot_pete

Me-109 wrote:

Merlin?! Didn't I read a thread recently about their customer service? What was it now....

You’d have to take a gamble, obviously!

“D’ya feel lucky, punk?”

PP

drlodge

Tiesetrotter wrote:

The selling point for me is the manual Ultra Shift and always has been.

Same here, and the feel of the hoods. I've got EPS on the Massive Attack but you don't get the same functionality which is a bit of a pain. Mechanical Chorus is, at the moment, my go to group set.

May be the Rourke SR group set will wear out at some point, by then the 12 speed should be available in Chorus or whatever at an affordable price and I can move to that.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

[

May be the Rourke SR group set will wear out at some point, .

Not at this rate...

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

drlodge wrote:

[

May be the Rourke SR group set will wear out at some point, .

Not at this rate...

:shock: Yeh the Campag dust seals are quite effective!!!

timothyw

The funny thing about trying out 1x10 gearing, which I've done on my commuter, is it has made me aware how rarely I actually single-shift on most of my bikes.

When you're running an 11-36 cassette, you feel the difference with every shift - I keep on instinctively changing two gears up or down and overdoing it.

Still, I'm sure I'll miss the fine tuning if I ever take it on a club run/chaingang.

shipley

JakeJ wrote:

The older Record & Super record looked so much better, the new one looks like a 3d printed version of the old ultegra.

What were they thinking.

Perfectly summed up

neeb

I’m really sensitive to gearing when doing hard threshold efforts in particular such as 2x20. Even with one tooth gaps I sometimes find I can’t find exactly the right gear.. It can make a difference to the maximum power I can sustain over 10 or 20 mins,

amrushton

How did the cyclists of yore manage on 8/9/10 speed? Anyway its a gear change system - incredibly expensive imo for 1 extra cog. Does the £100+ chain tool work with 12 speed or is that an extra? I note Shimano has never introduced carbon chainsets altho' they had prototypes out for about a year. I'm sure someone out there will be itching to get rid of their 11 speed SR or Record to get the 'extra benefit' but we've yet to see what FSA are going to come out with.

pblakeney

amrushton wrote:

How did the cyclists of yore manage on 8/9/10 speed?

Well, I remember when a 10 speed was 2x5.
Today? Luxury!

noodleman

amrushton wrote:

but we've yet to see what FSA are going to come out with.

Let's hope for something better than the half baked WE groupset FSA released because it's neither wireless or wired and looks like a dog's dinner.

Matthewfalle

neeb wrote:

I’m really sensitive to gearing when doing hard threshold efforts in particular such as 2x20. Even with one tooth gaps I sometimes find I can’t find exactly the right gear.. It can make a difference to the maximum power I can sustain over 10 or 20 mins,

this. i find exactly the same issue.

mercia_man

I think the new Campag 12-speed sounds appealing. I'd spec it if I was buying a new bike. It's not just the extra cog. There are several other improvements to the whole groupset.

As someone who started off with five-speed freewheels, moving to six, seven, nine and 11, I've really appreciated the benefit of close ratios over the years.

As well as being nice on a fast road bike, close ratios are brilliant for cycle touring. When I've been cycling for several hours up a high mountain pass in the Alps or Pyrenees, with camping gear in front and rear panniers, it's really beneficial to make small incremental changes in your ratios. On my touring bike, I have three close ratio climbing gears in the 20 inches range and three in the 30s. I achieve this with a triple chainset and a 13-28 nine-speed cassette. The beauty of a 12-speed 11-32 cassette for tourists is you could achieve the same sort of range and close ratios as my tourer with a double super compact chainset such as 44/28.

rajMAN

Would love to go straight to SR 12spd but with a 11-25 block. However most of my ahem "training" could easily be done with 8spd and downtube shifters, I wish Campag would offer that as a new group!

keef66

PBlakeney wrote:

amrushton wrote:

How did the cyclists of yore manage on 8/9/10 speed?

Well, I remember when a 10 speed was 2x5.
Today? Luxury!

Me too. I went from a sit up and beg 3 speed Sturmey Archer to 5 and thought it was amazing. Then to a proper racing bike with derailleur and a 5 speed block, and when I moved on to one with a double chainring it was the absolute b0llocks.

The prospect of 24 gears / STIs / electronic shifting / disc brakes / GPS computers & navigation, HRMs, power meters / goretex / lycra / LED lighting etc was the stuff of science fiction...

davebradswmb

10 speed wasn't even really 10 gears. I ran a 48/32 chainset with 14-24 cassette which gave me 9 distinct ratios and a lot of cross-chaining, but as far as I remember the standard set-up was 52/39 with the same cassette which only gave 7 distinct ratios. As I lived in Manchester and we spent quite a lot of our time in the Peak District most of my friends swapped their cassette for 14-28 which gave them 8 distinct ratios.

All the same looking back I can't see how I put up with those gaps in ratios. I'm running 9-speed Campag which gives me 14 distinct ratios and I'm very conscious if I accidentally skip two sprockets.

I get Ugo's point about fragility, I don't have a bottomless pocket and the potential reduction in lifespan of components if I upgrade to 10 speed, never mind 11 or 12 speed is one reason for staying with 9 speed. I suppose if you can afford the price of the new groupset you aren't going to quibble about replacing chains and cassettes regularly, but I like to see a minimum of couple of years before considering replacement, and that is riding over 8000 kms a year split fairly evenly across two bikes.

ugo.santalucia

I went up a 7-10% climb in the cotswolds on a single speed 42 x 16 today... it wasn't too bad
Just saying...