Campagnolo 12 speed...

1986sv

When will it end? :shock:

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/reviews/4571/campagnolo-launches-12-speed-groupset

JakeJ

The older Record & Super record looked so much better, the new one looks like a 3d printed version of the old ultegra.

What were they thinking.

lostboysaint

Been on MTBs for a while so it's a surprise that it's taken quite this long for the roadies to catch up.

ugo.santalucia

Old way of thinking... like 11 speed, it is only going to add further complication and stress without actually providing any benefit. Bearing in mind large sprockets could be in principle be obtained even with ancient 8 or 9 or 10 speed, I really don't see how this seemingly infinite range is going to benefit anybody in the real world. In practice it means that the current ... 22-25-28-32 will become .... 22-24-26-29-32... hooray!

The real technological advances that we have seen in other forms of transport still need to find an equivalent in the bicycle world... ABS, pressure sensors for tyres, integrated lights and many more solutions to real worlds problems that nobody seem to be willing to address

drlodge

I expect the Hope freehub will be even further weakened :?

thegreatdivide

ugo.santalucia wrote:

it is only going to add further complication and stress without actually providing any benefit

How?

veronese68

thegreatdivide wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

it is only going to add further complication and stress without actually providing any benefit

How?

More gears in the same size space meaning tighter tolerances and thinner components. The range is the same just an extra gear in the middle which is little benefit considering ratios are already pretty close.

drlodge

Agree...I already have the Potenza 11-32 cassette fitted and the spacing between gears is fine.

Back in the day when I had 13-14-15-17-19-21 some of those 2 teeth gaps were an issue, but not today.

12 speed is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

thegreatdivide

Some quality stock responses so far. Keep it up. We might have a full house by this evening.

cgfw201

Seems to make more sense for 1x12 setups, very marginal benefit in 2x12, isn't there? But 1x12 would make 1x almost undeniably a great option?

cycleclinic

What it allows folk and this is what you are missing is wider range cassettes like 11-36T without big steps and this make 1x more appealing.

11 speed is reliable just like 10 speed was before it and 9 speed before that..... 12 speed can also be reliable. It will just be more expenwive for a while until other work out how to make chains and cassettes with the tight tollerances needed.

I am hoping Miche for example will make a 1x chainring for the chainset and 12 speed cassettes with much larger sprockets than 32T once it has been determined how big the sprockets can be be without causing problems.

I have ordered/resereved a couple of groupsets. I wont be ditiching my 10 and 11 speed campag drivetrains though- no point until they wear out.

veronese68

thegreatdivide wrote:

Some quality stock responses so far. Keep it up. We might have a full house by this evening.

So which of them is inaccurate?

cycleclinic

If Drlodge et.al view point is correct then we might as well stop all technological development as it is all pointless. That is not the point incremental imporovements are made because they are improvements whether people buy them is another matter. This will sell and it will trickle down.

My 1988 BMW 530i still works as a car rather well so does that mean all subsequent cars are pointless. The 5 speed box in mine is fine but there are 8 speed semi autmatic or fully automatic gearboxes now. You could argue what the point is but 8 speed boxes exists anyway.

thegreatdivide

Veronese68 wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

Some quality stock responses so far. Keep it up. We might have a full house by this evening.

So which of them is inaccurate?

Yours for a start. It's basically just hot air.

[Edit because I cut half my post off]

Do you not think they thought of tolerances etc in testing? Or do you think they just bunged another cog in, put the groupset into production and hoped for the best?

veronese68

thegreatdivide wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

Some quality stock responses so far. Keep it up. We might have a full house by this evening.

So which of them is inaccurate?

Yours for a start. It's basically just hot air.
[Edit because I cut half my post off]
Do you not think they thought of tolerances etc in testing? Or do you think they just bunged another cog in, put the groupset into production and hoped for the best?

Did you read the article? It says the components are thinner to get more gears into the same space so how is me repeating that inaccurate.

article says wrote:

Despite the inclusion of another sprocket, the new 12-speed cassettes take up the same room as their 11-speed predecessors...Campagnolo has achieved this by making the individual sprockets thinner and reducing the space between them...With thinner sprockets and smaller spaces, it follows that the chain has been made thinner as well. This proved to be one of the toughest challenges for Campagnolo’s engineers, as the chain had to be made thinner without affecting its durability or reliability.

I said:

Veronese68 wrote:

More gears in the same size space meaning tighter tolerances and thinner components. The range is the same just an extra gear in the middle which is little benefit considering ratios are already pretty close.

Yes, of course they thought about it, but it is more complicated that's fact. Making 12 fit in is harder than making 11 fit and work. I'm not saying it's not progress. The benefit to me is negligible, I'm still on 10 speed I don't need more gears. When I next upgrade I will almost certainly end up on 11, not because I need them but because that's all there is at the sort of level I'd be looking at. It says the hardest part was making the thinner chain as reliable, if it wasn't more complicated and with tighter tolerances it wouldn't have been difficult.

ugo.santalucia

Progress or not, I just wish they focussed on something else than just "more sprockets".
It might well be that you can now buy cars with 8 gears, but who chooses a car based on the number of gears? Is that all engineering has to offer?

It seems to me they are still trying to convince people that having more gears is better... a bit like when we were kids... surely there are more relevant issues that could be addressed by clever engineering.

Lack of vision, zero creativity...

the_cyclist_of_catan

Given how 10-speed chains last for fewer miles than 9-speed ones, and how 11-speed chains last noticeably less time than 10-speed ones, I wonder how long 12-speed chains will last?

Eventually we'll get to 15- or 16-speed setups, where the chain needs replacing on a weekly basis.

veronese68

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Progress or not, I just wish they focussed on something else than just "more sprockets".

How many blades on your razor type thing.

londoncommuter

I just don't get the cassette options.

It all seems to be around people switching to 52/36 chainsets but don't you have to be 20 stone of muscle to be powerful enough to really use 52/11 and at the same time heavy enough to need 36/32.

I was only pondering this morning that, with a compact, I never use my 11T or 26T cassette cogs as it is.

amrushton

Surely its about generating more sales? They were beaten to electric shifting even tho' they pioneered it then beaten to wireless and 1x. They have no mtb market so the idea of 12 speed puts them ahead. If I'd just bought a new bike with 11sp SR or record tho' I'd be annoyed.

lostboysaint

amrushton wrote:

Surely its about generating more sales? They were beaten to electric shifting even tho' they pioneered it then beaten to wireless and 1x. They have no mtb market so the idea of 12 speed puts them ahead. If I'd just bought a new bike with 11sp SR or record tho' I'd be annoyed.

It would be interesting to know why SRAM haven't just moved their 12 speed tech over to the road already.

cycleclinic

londoncommutor I am 85kg and happily turn 52/11T on my race bike. I am not 20 stone of muscle. just because you dont use it does not mean other dont.

The cyclist of catalan - really I have never found this. 10 speed chain or 11 speed seem to last as long as each other. I still have 8 and 9 speed bikes and they get to the wear limit in about the same time. chain wear is not determined by chain width. The roller and pin width matter little to how quickly they wear. You can possibly ride an 8 speed chain past it best for longer than an 11 speed chain but you should not be doing that in the first place.

ugo.santalucia

1x has no future on road bikes... the day you'll have enough sprockets to ride at 30 mph on the flat and at the same time be able to climb the Mortirolo, all without massive gaps in the sprockets, the chain will be so thin that it will break all the time for being out of alignment.
If you want a 1x for race bikes, then you need to look at an alternative to sprockets or hub gears, cause neither works.

You can be happy with 1x, provided your riding is limited in terrain or in speed or both.

For what that matters I know folks who ride 400 km with 5,000 metres of climbing on afixed gear... it's just a matter of how fast you want to go

https://www.strava.com/activities/1495625433

londoncommuter

thecycleclinic wrote:

londoncommutor I am 85kg and happily turn 52/11T on my race bike. I am not 20 stone of muscle. just because you dont use it does not mean other dont.

Fair enough. I have no power or weight! Still, it would be nice to have the option of a 12 speed cassette without, what are for me, pointless cogs.

ayjaycee

1986sv wrote:

When will it end? :shock:

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/reviews/4571/campagnolo-launches-12-speed-groupset

When suckers stop buying it. Then again, similar things were said in the past and look where we are now.

cycleclinic

focus on what then. Campagnolo are a compnay and they are sales driven so if there is a demand for more sprockets then thats what they have to do. The shifting is already as good as it can be. Campagnolo have not made this groupset lighter than previous because they have proabbaly realaised having the lightest does not increase sales. So what else is there well one more cog so that allows 1x12 if that takes off. It is about creating an adapatable platform with the curent 11 speed is not. It makes sense form a business perspective. also Shimano have better pricing for there 11 speed kit so given campagnolo find it hard to compete on price they need something to differieniate there kit from the competition.

Also the rear mech has moved to the direct mount type. Also the top jockey wheel is now further forward so there is more chain wrap around the cogs. The move to thru axles means the direct mount RD's are a better design as instead of a hanger set into a thinner dropout out area a frame maker can use a beam/link instead so the whole interface is stiffer and the dropout is stronger. There is a good reason why it is used on MTB's and since road bikes are taking on MTB standards this will be next.

While rim brake bikes are not on through axles yet. The whole move to 12 speed is going to encourage 135mm Q/R or 142x12mm thrus axle rim brake bikes and with the later direct mount is useful. Also existing disc brake bikes need direct mount which is why shimano have been doing it. direct mount RD's allow the accurate shifting with wide ratio cassetes like 11-40T so the whole groupset make sense when you start to think of what is on the horizon rather than whats about now.

Think like a business (they have to sell stuff) and it starts to make sense.

People have said there is no future for disc brake for road bikes and that has been proved wrong. Same with 1x12. It is niche now but it may not remain that way. nice to know that my riding is limited in speed - lets not go there. The 52T/11-32T I use on the race bike I would ride in most places. I will see how I get on next weekend riding back from hebden bridge. I intend to head south first to make sure the ride to suffolk is hilly. What I trying to get at here what rigth for me is not for the rest of you and what not right for you is not right for me so the drivetrain has to cater for all of us. If that means an unused cog so be it or the capability for 1x12 (which more me will become desirable if I can have 11-36T cassettes that I can swap in for a trip to italy for example) even if you dont use it. That's what a flexible platform means. Why this is so hard to get I dont know.

dstev55

londoncommuter wrote:

I just don't get the cassette options.

It all seems to be around people switching to 52/36 chainsets but don't you have to be 20 stone of muscle to be powerful enough to really use 52/11 and at the same time heavy enough to need 36/32.

I was only pondering this morning that, with a compact, I never use my 11T or 26T cassette cogs as it is.

:roll:

I'm 67kg, I run a 52/36 and use the 52/11 gear more than enough to justify having it. I spend a lot of time in the hills of Derbyshire and any 4-5% decline in gradient means I'll be turning that gear. I'm not going quick enough or have enough momentum to tuck so will be pedalling in my hardest gear. I guess if you live in a flat area or you're a casual type of cyclist then you wouldn't need it.

markwb79

The Cyclist of Catan wrote:

Given how 10-speed chains last for fewer miles than 9-speed ones, and how 11-speed chains last noticeably less time than 10-speed ones, I wonder how long 12-speed chains will last?

Eventually we'll get to 15- or 16-speed setups, where the chain needs replacing on a weekly basis.

I am not convinced thats the reason chain's don't last as long.

We are constantly asking for prices to come down on everything, thats just the world.....internet shopping etc.
Raw materials go up, manufacturing costs go up.
So companies will reduce the quality of the products.

I wonder how much a 9 speed Dura ace chain would be nowadays?

pamplemoose

Excellent timing on Campagnolo's part. With Dura-Ace, Ultra and now 105 having just been refreshed, there's no way Shimano will change for a year or two.

neeb

In theory I should like this because I'm really fussy about gear spacing and cadence - I hate being in-between gears and anything that reduces gaps while keeping a decent range is good in my books. But the tighest available cassette is an 11-29 FFS!!!

What was for years a holy grail for me, a straight-through 12-23 cassette with single tooth gaps, is now actually possible... But will doubtless never be made (admittedly I'd probably go for a 12-25 these days and put up with a 2-tooth gap to the last sprocket).

Andymaxy

Maybe eventually we will all end riding on gearboxes.....