Campagnolo 12 speed...

cycleclinic

The straight through cassette though would entail a different rear mech geometry. What campagnolo have chosen is ideal for the cassettes they have made. Close ratio 11 speed cassette sales are more than slow so there is no point in making one. So campagnolo have rightly designed there new rd around the cassettes that will actually sell.

Even pros don't use a 12-25t any more.

neeb

thecycleclinic wrote:

The straight through cassette though would entail a different rear mech geometry. What campagnolo have chosen is ideal for the cassettes they have made. Close ratio 11 speed cassette sales are more than slow so there is no point in making one. So campagnolo have rightly designed there new rd around the cassettes that will actually sell.

Even pros don't use a 12-25t any more.

The pros are still using 53-39 chainsets though..

These days I use an 11-25 with a 50-34 chainset, and a 12-27 with a 52-36. I'm only putting out 2/3 of the w/kg that the pros are but that does me for everything other than proper alps (it's still perfectly comfortable for all of Mallorca, say), and I'm not grinding up the climbs.

I trust that Campagnolo will at least release a 12-27 in time, otherwise it will just be silly.

cycleclinic

They won't though. I think the rd geometry precludes anything smaller. This groupsets is only available with 53/39 or 52/36. I use the former only do the cassette choice suits me fine. This is a groupsets for racers and is focused on them.

They gave centaur and potenza for everyone else

shirley_basso

But that is contrary to what you said previously. I bet there are more wealthy weekend warriors worldwide than racers who would slap compacts on happily, so it's arguably a poor business decision.

dstev55

Yeah I disagree with it only being for racers. You just know that as soon as the order books open there are going to be lots of people with more money than sense and fitness that are going to splash the cash.

green_mark

ugo.santalucia wrote:

1x has no future on road bikes... the day you'll have enough sprockets to ride at 30 mph on the flat and at the same time be able to climb the Mortirolo, all without massive gaps in the sprockets, the chain will be so thin that it will break all the time for being out of alignment.
If you want a 1x for race bikes, then you need to look at an alternative to sprockets or hub gears, cause neither works.

You can be happy with 1x, provided your riding is limited in terrain or in speed or both.

For what that matters I know folks who ride 400 km with 5,000 metres of climbing on afixed gear... it's just a matter of how fast you want to go

https://www.strava.com/activities/1495625433

1x is extremely versatile.
It only takes 5 minutes to change a cassette. 30 minutes to change a chainring. With clutch gears you don’t often need to adjust chain length.
So within 45 minutes you can change a bike with gears for criterium racing on a flat circuit to one for fully loaded bike-packing in the Alps.
Very few poeple will ride 30mph rides on the same day as a climb up the Mortirolo - maybe only those riding Grand Tours do that.

Furthermore there are loads of duplicate gears in most 2x set-ups, and in most cases there are gears you’ll never use because they are too high for mortals. A 2x set up with 50/34 x 11-32T and only 3 or 4 more usable non-duplicate gears than a 1x set up 46x11-42T– but to get those extra gears you need to keep shifting both front and back.

As for the 12-speed cassette… Campy said it was because when they originally did 11-speed most people were riding at most 11-28. Now people are doing 11-32 so they think they need more gears in between.
For the vast majority of people using a 2x, that problem of gear spacing would be solved by having an eleven-speed 12-32T cassette instead of a twelve-speed 11-32 cassette. Few people will ever need the 11-sprocket, even with a 50T compact chainring.

ugo.santalucia

green_mark wrote:

Very few poeple will ride 30mph rides on the same day as a climb up the Mortirolo - maybe only those riding Grand Tours do that.

Without going too far, here is a small bucket list of very popular rides that will require you to go at 30 mph as well as climb long double digit gradient roads

Fred Whitton Challenge
Etape du Dales
Marmotte
Etape du Tour
Maratona dle Dolomites
Granfondo Campagnolo
Quebrantahuesos

twist83

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It might well be that you can now buy cars with 8 gears, but who chooses a car based on the number of gears? Is that all engineering has to offer?

But they do. The 8 speed Trannys are the new breed of Dual Clutch boxes. The offerings from Porsche, BMW, Audi etc when mated with a decent engine provides an amazing driving expereince.

So yes they do and if you have ever seen inside or driven a Dual clutch box, you would understand.

Just because YOU personally do not see the point, does not mean that it shouldn't be made. I do agree certain things would be great if they worked on them. However last time I checked Campag have nothing to do with a lot of the problems you want fixed.

Plus is there a profitable market for half these things? If Campag have indeed made thinner items and retained almost all of the durability and wear rate of prior generations then yes I would say that is a decent advance.

Do I need or want 12 speed? No. But it isn't exactly pointless as you put it.

ugo.santalucia

twist83 wrote:

However last time I checked Campag have nothing to do with a lot of the problems you want fixed.

Plus is there a profitable market for half these things?

They do make brakes (ABS) and they do make wheels (pressure sensors in the rims)...

I would say there is a profitable market for anything that is perceived as genuine improvement, just look at how disc brakes are received by the public... would you buy a car without ABS? Why a bike, that locks wheels more often?

twist83

Agree ABS would be a good thing. However I am not sure how you would make a system small enough and where would you put a pump etc to make it work. I would bet someone has put money into it? At least taken a look?

Again you cannot be sure what they are spending R&D money on. However there are few companies that likely have the budget to do this sort of work and focus on areas they make money. They are a business.

As for TPS. I am not sure I really see the point? Check the pressure before you leave for a ride, if it gets a puncture it is going to be flat. I think 95% of the cycling population won't care too much about a variance of a few PSI between rides or indeed during rides?

ugo.santalucia

twist83 wrote:

As for TPS. I am not sure I really see the point? Check the pressure before you leave for a ride, if it gets a puncture it is going to be flat. I think 95% of the cycling population won't care too much about a variance of a few PSI between rides or indeed during rides?

The ability to spot a loss of pressure before it becomes dangerous can be life saving. With tubeless you get the spray, which is good, but tubeless is not universal and it might not be for quite some time, if ever

drlodge

I would like to see groupsets available with 11-32 (Potenza) or better, 11-34 options. Having 12 sprockets might then be some benefit so closer gaps at the small end. This is probably not needed for the majority of UK riders, but for the events Ugo listed or any kind of Alpine/mountainous holiday riding, it would be very welcomed in the MAMIL brigade.

So I just wrote this out:

11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-25-28-31-34

Its 14. Reducing to 12 gets you something like:

11-12-13-14-16-18-20-22-24-27-30-34

or

11-12-13-14-16-17-18-20-23-26-30-34

cycleclinic

Well there is alt of moaning here. Instead I think well done for trying. It maybe a flop. Time will tell but to all the moaners if you don't find what campagnolo are doing is right for you don't buy it. There are riders who they s will be right for them. Also everything I have said is consistent.

The problem with the old line up is why buy super record or record over chorus. Chorus is probably being ditched. Now record and super record are different and centaur and potenza is for everyone else. If you are racing and using a compact fine but you would do as well on entUr or potenza. That's campagnolo's logic and they have a point. If there is demand a compact may follow but maybe campagnolo know how many compacts they sell of there higher tier groups and maybe it is not enough to justify making the rings.

Assumptions assumptions.... Thats is what this thread is full of.

Also they have new more flexible cables and casings for these groupsets and a bunch of other changes so it's not About just a move to 12speed.

Think of it another way. With Shimano r8000 and r9000 why buy campagnolo chorus. Now campagnolo have acdistinctive to offering for a while at least.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well there is alt of moaning here. Instead I think well done for trying. It maybe a flop. Time will tell but to all the moaners if you don't find what campagnolo are doing is right for you don't buy it. There are riders who they s will be right for them. Also everything I have said is consistent.

The problem with the old line up is why buy super record or record over chorus. Chorus is probably being ditched. Now record and super record are different and centaur and potenza is for everyone else. If you are racing and using a compact fine but you would do as well on entUr or potenza. That's campagnolo's logic and they have a point. If there is demand a compact may follow but maybe campagnolo know how many compacts they sell of there higher tier groups and maybe it is not enough to justify making the rings.
.

I am a bit surprised that someone like yourself, known for his down to earth and practical advice, falls for something as trivial as adding a cog to an already over-sprocketed cassette.

Of course, I have to then remind myself that first and foremost you sell bicycles and components, so anything new that might bring revenue has to be seen as a good thing, but 12 speed... c'mon, really? Has the exctiement of one more cog not run out when we got to 10? :roll:

shirley_basso

Have you not seen Spinal Tap, ugo?

StillGoing

But isn't the evolution of the road bike gearing (see what I did there) towards 1x with a single chainring at the front and a big spread of gears on the cassette? Less risk of mechanical issues with FDs.

dstev55

philthy3 wrote:

But isn't the evolution of the road bike gearing (see what I did there) towards 1x with a single chainring at the front and a big spread of gears on the cassette? Less risk of mechanical issues with FDs.

I honestly have no desire to ride a 1x setup unless there were probably 16+ sprockets on the back. On Sunday I genuinely needed and used my 36-29 and my 52-11 so I can't see how a 1x setup could ever fit in with my type of riding.

raisinberry777

dstev55 wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

But isn't the evolution of the road bike gearing (see what I did there) towards 1x with a single chainring at the front and a big spread of gears on the cassette? Less risk of mechanical issues with FDs.

I honestly have no desire to ride a 1x setup unless there were probably 16+ sprockets on the back. On Sunday I genuinely needed and used my 36-29 and my 52-11 so I can't see how a 1x setup could ever fit in with my type of riding.

With a 52 on the front, an 11-42 would get you the same range on the back - it would be a matter of how you felt about the gaps.

dstev55

raisinberry777 wrote:

dstev55 wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

But isn't the evolution of the road bike gearing (see what I did there) towards 1x with a single chainring at the front and a big spread of gears on the cassette? Less risk of mechanical issues with FDs.

I honestly have no desire to ride a 1x setup unless there were probably 16+ sprockets on the back. On Sunday I genuinely needed and used my 36-29 and my 52-11 so I can't see how a 1x setup could ever fit in with my type of riding.

With a 52 on the front, an 11-42 would get you the same range on the back - it would be a matter of how you felt about the gaps.

I couldn't cope, it's as simple as that. It would drive me insane. It would be like driving a car with only 1st, 3rd and 5th gear.

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I am a bit surprised that someone like yourself, known for his down to earth and practical advice, falls for something as trivial as adding a cog to an already over-sprocketed cassette.

Of course, I have to then remind myself that first and foremost you sell bicycles and components, so anything new that might bring revenue has to be seen as a good thing, but 12 speed... c'mon, really? Has the exctiement of one more cog not run out when we got to 10? :roll:

On further reflection, I concluded that individual incremental improvements are almost a waste of time and bring little if any benefit. However, its when they're aggregated and combined over time that real benefits are felt.

6 gears not much better than 5, 7 not much better than 6...but 11 is a lot better than 5.

timothyw

dstev55 wrote:

londoncommuter wrote:

I just don't get the cassette options.

It all seems to be around people switching to 52/36 chainsets but don't you have to be 20 stone of muscle to be powerful enough to really use 52/11 and at the same time heavy enough to need 36/32.

I was only pondering this morning that, with a compact, I never use my 11T or 26T cassette cogs as it is.

:roll:

I'm 67kg, I run a 52/36 and use the 52/11 gear more than enough to justify having it. I spend a lot of time in the hills of Derbyshire and any 4-5% decline in gradient means I'll be turning that gear. I'm not going quick enough or have enough momentum to tuck so will be pedalling in my hardest gear. I guess if you live in a flat area or you're a casual type of cyclist then you wouldn't need it.

I love how both people who have commented on this have completely missed the point.

You're 67kg - are you seriously telling me that you need to spin up hills in a 36/32 gear?

I'm closer to 120kg and it's pretty rare I use the 36/32 - most of my bikes don't even have that low a gear.

ugo.santalucia

TimothyW wrote:

I'm closer to 120kg and it's pretty rare I use the 36/32 - most of my bikes don't even have that low a gear.

remind me again where is that you live... it's not Derbyshire is it? :roll:

Did we not meet in north London once?

timothyw

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

I'm closer to 120kg and it's pretty rare I use the 36/32 - most of my bikes don't even have that low a gear.

remind me again where is that you live... it's not Derbyshire is it? :roll:

Did we not meet in north London once?

Oh, it would have been this sort of time a few years ago on the Rapha hell of the north - my stomping ground isn't flat, plenty of sharp ones in the 'petit alps' - what we locally call the area around Newgate Street/Essendon

I do undeniably favour a fairly low cadence (bit wasteful of energy spinning such chunky legs as mine...) but I think the point still stands.

Riders I know in the 60kg bracket would be running 11-25 cassettes and absolutely leaving me for dust when the road turns upwards.

Edit to add - 52x11 is a very big gear, but not actually much bigger than, say 46x11 (which is itself a bigger gear than 50x12, and considerably bigger than anything Merckx would have sprinted with)

dstev55

TimothyW wrote:

dstev55 wrote:

londoncommuter wrote:

I just don't get the cassette options.

It all seems to be around people switching to 52/36 chainsets but don't you have to be 20 stone of muscle to be powerful enough to really use 52/11 and at the same time heavy enough to need 36/32.

I was only pondering this morning that, with a compact, I never use my 11T or 26T cassette cogs as it is.

:roll:

I'm 67kg, I run a 52/36 and use the 52/11 gear more than enough to justify having it. I spend a lot of time in the hills of Derbyshire and any 4-5% decline in gradient means I'll be turning that gear. I'm not going quick enough or have enough momentum to tuck so will be pedalling in my hardest gear. I guess if you live in a flat area or you're a casual type of cyclist then you wouldn't need it.

I love how both people who have commented on this have completely missed the point.

You're 67kg - are you seriously telling me that you need to spin up hills in a 36/32 gear?

I'm closer to 120kg and it's pretty rare I use the 36/32 - most of my bikes don't even have that low a gear.

No I don't as if you had read some of the other posts you would know that 36-29 is my smallest gear.

And by the sounds of it, unlike you, I do live in Derbyshire where a 32 would be beneficial for almost any rider on some of the hills around here.

Oh and on Sunday this was one if my hills:

https://veloviewer.com/segment/6681397

Come and have a go one day. Without one of your bikes that doesn't have a 32 on the back obviously...

timothyw

dstev55 wrote:

Oh and on Sunday this was one if my hills:

https://veloviewer.com/segment/6681397

Come and have a go one day. Without one of your bikes that doesn't have a 32 on the back obviously...

If I lived round there I'd be on 50-34 with an 11-32 cassette, and probably be eagerly looking forward to 11-34 with the new 105

It's a bit of an extreme example though isn't it? Most people in the UK don't climb anything like that on a regular basis (and most alpine passes are considerably less steep eg https://veloviewer.com/segment/4286076/ ... +de+France).

dstev55

TimothyW wrote:

dstev55 wrote:

Oh and on Sunday this was one if my hills:

https://veloviewer.com/segment/6681397

Come and have a go one day. Without one of your bikes that doesn't have a 32 on the back obviously...

If I lived round there I'd be on 50-34 with an 11-32 cassette, and probably be eagerly looking forward to 11-34 with the new 105

It's a bit of an extreme example though isn't it? Most people in the UK don't climb anything like that on a regular basis (and most alpine passes are considerably less steep eg https://veloviewer.com/segment/4286076/ ... +de+France).

I agree, but neither of us were talking about "most people" - we were talking about me!

Moonbiker

Won't the increase in cross chaining wear cogs & chains our faster?

I think triples will come back in vogue soon, or a 2x5 "utility" groupset.

mamil314

Bla blaa.. I started a new piggy bank as soon as i saw those levers.

ugo.santalucia

TimothyW wrote:

It's a bit of an extreme example though isn't it? Most people in the UK don't climb anything like that on a regular basis .

I don't think it is... Derbyshire doesn't even have the steepest climbs in the land... lots of club riders weekly go up Honister and Newlands pass or Garsdale Head or Buttertubs and Fleet Moss, as well as Bwlch Y Groes and the Devil's staircase, Winnats Pass, The Burway, Porlock Hill and Dunkery Beacon... I can go on... if you have them at your door step, and many do, why not taking advantage?

In fact, I can't recall ever climbing any of the above and not spotting at least another rider going up or coming down.

I think you have a London centric perspective of cycling in this country.

cycleclinic

Well ugo if you dont like the extra cog are we all going to go back to 8 speed then. I do have 6, speed, 7 speed, 8, speed, 9 speed, 10 and 11 speed bikes. one day I might have a 12 speed bike but I have spent the winter riding 2x10 speed bikes. All i really need is a single speed if fact it took a long time for gears to catch on and in some circles they still have not.

however my repsonses are actually trying to explain what is new about it and maybe some of the logic as i see it. We dont need 8 speed gear boxes in car but they exist and it is hard to deny that a 8 speed box does allow the driver now to control the engine speed so it is more fuel efficent. Cassette ratio options are not fixed but a smaller last cog than 29T is not very likely. While there is only an 11-29T and a 11-32T option now, other may appear in time like a 12-32T or a 12-29T depending on demand. Then again maybe not.

ABS I think exists on some electric bicyles along with automatic shifting. tyre pressure montitoring will probably exist too for commutor bikes at first. Whether a road sport cyclist will go for it is another matter.

an 11-34T cassette is more likely to appear on Potenza or Centaur than it is on record or super record (I think), thats if they do it at all. I think someone at the begining said were does it end. Well if this thread is anything to go by there is no end.

Maybe SRAM will repsond with an Eagle groupsset for road... and so on.

Another thing I have notcied but I dont know how well it work the super record (and record I think) rear mech have different spring to previous RD's (no idea what that means) to reduce chain slap. Whether it works as well as shimano clutch mechanism I dont know. This of course, like R8000 and soon R7000, means 1x is more viable due to chain derailment being almost impossible.