Snapped frame - what might have caused this?

Matthewfalle

Fenix wrote:

lesfirth wrote:

Contrary to other contributors,I can not see any evidence of any impact damage in any photo. The fact that the frame has failed as the soon as the OP started to ride it is significant.Anyone involved in manufacturing anything will know that the maximum failure rate of their product will initially be at the start of its life.The failures will then drop dramatically and will only rise when the product starts to reach the end of its designed life.This is a classic case of an early life failure. The evidence is overwhelming that this is a result of a manufacturing defect. The fact that this frame has got past Canyons ( or whoever makes their frames) quality control points to the fact that their quality control, being polite, is inadequate.

When descending one of our crap roads at 80 kph I want to know that the weak part of the situation is my judgment and not my bike. Should my frame fail in that situation, the fact that, when I get out of A&E, the manufacturer will give me a new frame would be of no comfort.

There is little to choose between bike brands so when I pick my next new bike I will choose a manufacturer that has yet to show that their quality is questionable. I have no axe to grind it just makes sense to me.

If you're that risk averse you probably shouldn't be cycling. For each fault that you hear about there's probably thousands of people with no issues - but who reports 'bought bike - it didn't break' ?

don't worry - everything worries or vexes les: hes quite an over reactive character.

i'd have a Canyon without a doubt.

kingstongraham

Good luck with finding a manufacturer that when you put "manufacturer x bike frame cracked" in google comes up with no results.

Andymaxy

I was complaining about cable frays on my brand new aeroad when one of the guys pointed me to this post and told me to shut up. I have to say that it sounds like you are having some bigger trouble than i am. I have not yet ridden my aeroad, but will be going out today for a quick spin just to make sure everything is going right.

Anyways, I'm definitely interested in how Canyon responds to this, so I'll be waiting for your update. Thanks for sharing this.

bonzo_banana

KingstonGraham wrote:

Good luck with finding a manufacturer that when you put "manufacturer x bike frame cracked" in google comes up with no results.

Carbon fibre is brittle though and minor accidents happen frequently which can damage such frames. This is a rarer frame quality issue. The majority of forum postings I've seen about carbon frame's snapping is after some incident or other.

glynrs2

This looks like it has cracked along one of the join lines of the carbon tubes, rather than the carbon tube cracking itself. If you look at how there made, you may see what I mean:
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/01/how-car ... -are-made/

ayjaycee

Bonzo Banana wrote:

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer

Did you actually look at that list? I'm no statistician or, indeed, car expert but my immediate reaction is that there is something a bit off about that list. My instinct would be to question anything that had Rover in the top 10 of anything (except maybe the top 10 of sh1t cars). Also, it might be my lack of understanding but if Fiat are the median (or, at 101, very close to it), I really despair for the car industry in general. I couldn't be arsed to investigate how many cars are actually on the road in the UK but would guess that the 50000 mentioned by Warranty Direct is a very (,very) small percentage.

Back to the original post, if it is just a simple failure rather than being caused by 'user error' then Canyon need to be cut a bit of slack as it could happen to any manufacturer. Of course, if we hear about another 10 similar incidents over the next few weeks then it might be time for Cpl Jones to start shouting 'DON'T PANIC' but until then..........

bonzo_banana

ayjaycee wrote:

Bonzo Banana wrote:

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer

Did you actually look at that list? I'm no statistician or, indeed, car expert but my immediate reaction is that there is something a bit off about that list. My instinct would be to question anything that had Rover in the top 10 of anything (except maybe the top 10 of sh1t cars). Also, it might be my lack of understanding but if Fiat are the median (or, at 101, very close to it), I really despair for the car industry in general. I couldn't be arsed to investigate how many cars are actually on the road in the UK but would guess that the 50000 mentioned by Warranty Direct is a very (,very) small percentage.

That site has no bias at all its pure numbers based on warranty claims. It doesn't add any preconceptions of which brands are most reliable or allow for any bias of surveys etc purely numbers. Weren't Rover's pretty much Japanese designs up until BMW bought them and then later disposed of. Rover is an old brand and old data surely because you aren't going to get many new warranties taken out for them. Also just about every motorhome has a Fiat engine they do some stuff well but again we can all add our own opinions but this is purely statistical data without such bias which is why I used it as a source. The only thing I would say is you need to compare like for like. If you are comparing luxury cars you'd compare a Mercedes with a Lexus not a Mercedes with a Dacia. Huge number of things can go wrong in a luxury car compared to a simple basic car. Some Dacia's have wind up windows and don't even feature a radio. Even if you compare like for like brands the German cars nowadays on average are the least reliable and have the highest cost of ownership. I was just making the point about people's perception of German quality but of course Canyon bikes are pretty much manufactured completely in the far east anyway with only final assembly in Germany and wheel building in Romania I think.

thegreatdivide

Bonzo Banana wrote:

All this spirit of Italy for Italian brands and solid engineering for German brands is all marketing both are going to end up being a frame from some sweatshop Chinese factory but with a huge markup on top.

You're living up to you username. Keep going with the guff. It's highly entertaining.

alex222

thegreatdivide wrote:

Bonzo Banana wrote:

All this spirit of Italy for Italian brands and solid engineering for German brands is all marketing both are going to end up being a frame from some sweatshop Chinese factory but with a huge markup on top.

You're living up to you username. Keep going with the guff. It's highly entertaining.

Indeed. I specialised in University on German economic history from 1870 to 1914, and a constant theme was the superiority of German manufacturing in that time, despite what Bonzo said about made in Germany being a sign of poor quality.
The spate of 'new universities' in the big cities (Manchester, Liverpool etc..) was partly in an attempt to catch up with German engineering.

noodleman

GlynRS2 wrote:

This looks like it has cracked along one of the join lines of the carbon tubes, rather than the carbon tube cracking itself. If you look at how there made, you may see what I mean:
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/01/how-car ... -are-made/

But this part of the frame is unlikely to have a join isn't it? Many carbon frames are monocoque designs, although as your link points out the stays may be joined but I can't imagine a joint in that area would be common.

bonzo_banana

Alex222 wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

Bonzo Banana wrote:

All this spirit of Italy for Italian brands and solid engineering for German brands is all marketing both are going to end up being a frame from some sweatshop Chinese factory but with a huge markup on top.

You're living up to you username. Keep going with the guff. It's highly entertaining.

Indeed. I specialised in University on German economic history from 1870 to 1914, and a constant theme was the superiority of German manufacturing in that time, despite what Bonzo said about made in Germany being a sign of poor quality.
The spate of 'new universities' in the big cities (Manchester, Liverpool etc..) was partly in an attempt to catch up with German engineering.

Again its not hard to just put in 'made in germany' and find out the history for christ's sake. In fact its 1887 exactly the time you are meant to be knowledgeable about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Germany

The facts are the parts of this bike are almost exclusively manufactured in Asia , German cars have dropped considerably in reliability in the last decade or so. So you can lie to yourself as much as you want I just deal with facts easily verifiable and not debatable unless you are some childish internet warrior.

ayjaycee

Bonzo, Regarding your Warranty Direct stats, frankly if you take anything that the insurance industry say at face value, you deserve to drive a Rover for the rest of your life.

thegreatdivide

Bonzo Banana wrote:

Alex222 wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

Bonzo Banana wrote:

All this spirit of Italy for Italian brands and solid engineering for German brands is all marketing both are going to end up being a frame from some sweatshop Chinese factory but with a huge markup on top.

You're living up to you username. Keep going with the guff. It's highly entertaining.

Indeed. I specialised in University on German economic history from 1870 to 1914, and a constant theme was the superiority of German manufacturing in that time, despite what Bonzo said about made in Germany being a sign of poor quality.
The spate of 'new universities' in the big cities (Manchester, Liverpool etc..) was partly in an attempt to catch up with German engineering.

Again its not hard to just put in 'made in germany' and find out the history for christ's sake. In fact its 1887 exactly the time you are meant to be knowledgeable about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Germany

The facts are the parts of this bike are almost exclusively manufactured in Asia , German cars have dropped considerably in reliability in the last decade or so. So you can lie to yourself as much as you want I just deal with facts easily verifiable and not debatable unless you are some childish internet warrior.

Hi milemuncher1

StillGoing

Bonzo Banana wrote:

The facts are the parts of this bike are almost exclusively manufactured in Asia , German cars have dropped considerably in reliability in the last decade or so.

Almost hysterical.

warrior4life

philthy3 wrote:

Bonzo Banana wrote:

The facts are the parts of this bike are almost exclusively manufactured in Asia , German cars have dropped considerably in reliability in the last decade or so.

Almost hysterical.

Wow, its not there a videos all over youtube of factories building carbon frames and components in the far east.
The SRAM one on GCN is fantastic, it gives a real eye in to the time and precision taken to make each component.

Back to the OP's frame, it looks like there could have been an issue bonding the frame on the down tube. It could have taken a knock at any point in its journey from Canyon to the OP.
I've seen carbon frames crack in the past but I've never seen one crack in half, they splinter like bamboo but continue to hold together in most cases, I wouldn't have a problem buying a Canyon or any other reputable bike manufacturer for that matter.

Hopefully the OP gets a swift resolution.

Bonzo needs to go on youtube and type in Bicycle factory tour.

StillGoing

warrior4life wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

Bonzo Banana wrote:

The facts are the parts of this bike are almost exclusively manufactured in Asia , German cars have dropped considerably in reliability in the last decade or so.

Almost hysterical.

Wow, its not there a videos all over youtube of factories building carbon frames and components in the far east.
The SRAM one on GCN is fantastic, it gives a real eye in to the time and precision taken to make each component.

Back to the OP's frame, it looks like there could have been an issue bonding the frame on the down tube. It could have taken a knock at any point in its journey from Canyon to the OP.
I've seen carbon frames crack in the past but I've never seen one crack in half, they splinter like bamboo but continue to hold together in most cases, I wouldn't have a problem buying a Canyon or any other reputable bike manufacturer for that matter.

Hopefully the OP gets a swift resolution.

Bonzo needs to go on youtube and type in Bicycle factory tour.

I'm not disputing that a large majority of frames will be being made in Taiwan. I'm laughing at the suggestion German manufactured cars have become more unreliable in the last decade.

froze

Unless Canyon can prove you had an some sort of impact, or you weigh more than the frame was built to handle, I don't think Canyon will give you any hassles. Canyon is trying to make inroads into the marketplace, if they give you, and I would assume it probably has happened to others if it happens to you, a bunch of grief, word will get around, thanks to the internet, and Canyon will eventually be out of business, so I seriously doubt you'll run into any problems getting the frame warranteed.

By the way was this bike a former racing bike that a pro team turned in at the end of the season and then was resold to you as used? If so, I'm not sure if Canyon warranties those, but maybe because Canyon was suppose to put it through an Xray test to see if there was any damage prior to selling it, so if somehow they didn't check it well enough they would probably cover the frame anyways.

noodleman

froze wrote:

Unless Canyon can prove you had an some sort of impact, or you weigh more than the frame was built to handle, I don't think Canyon will give you any hassles. Canyon is trying to make inroads into the marketplace, if they give you, and I would assume it probably has happened to others if it happens to you, a bunch of grief, word will get around, thanks to the internet, and Canyon will eventually be out of business, so I seriously doubt you'll run into any problems getting the frame warranteed.
By the way was this bike a former racing bike that a pro team turned in at the end of the season and then was resold to you as used? If so, I'm not sure if Canyon warranties those, but maybe because Canyon was suppose to put it through an Xray test to see if there was any damage prior to selling it, so if somehow they didn't check it well enough they would probably cover the frame anyways.

I believe the OP says he took delivery of a 'new' bike. Do canyon sell ex race bikes then?

thesledge

Quick update - bike was collected by Canyon (by UPS) from my home on Weds March 28, arrival and inspection confirmed by Canyon UK on Wednesday April 4. Inspection report is currently with Canyon in Germany awaiting outcome - I’ve been informed that I’ll hear from them within 2 weeks to “discuss options.”

So the winter steed remains in use for a few more weeks - getting the old girl up Nick o’ Pendle last Sunday was a barrel of laughs...

sloppyschleckonds

TheSledge wrote:

Quick update - bike was collected by Canyon (by UPS) from my home on Weds March 28, arrival and inspection confirmed by Canyon UK on Wednesday April 4. Inspection report is currently with Canyon in Germany awaiting outcome - I’ve been informed that I’ll hear from them within 2 weeks to “discuss options.”

So the winter steed remains in use for a few more weeks - getting the old girl up Nick o’ Pendle last Sunday was a barrel of laughs...

I'd hassle them, 2 weeks is taking the pi$$

Andymaxy

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

TheSledge wrote:

Quick update - bike was collected by Canyon (by UPS) from my home on Weds March 28, arrival and inspection confirmed by Canyon UK on Wednesday April 4. Inspection report is currently with Canyon in Germany awaiting outcome - I’ve been informed that I’ll hear from them within 2 weeks to “discuss options.”

So the winter steed remains in use for a few more weeks - getting the old girl up Nick o’ Pendle last Sunday was a barrel of laughs...

I'd hassle them, 2 weeks is taking the pi$$

Ya make sure to give them a push

cougie

Update due soon then ?

Andymaxy

cougie wrote:

Update due soon then ?

^

thesledge

Latest update - Monday April 16.

Well, it seems all the horror stories about Canyon's attitude to customer service are true. Here's the saga as it has unfolded over the last two weeks...make your own minds up.

APRIL 4
Email from Canyon (a week after collecting the boxed up bike from my home)

"I would like to let you know that I have completed a full inspection of your Ultimate. I have taken care of all the relevant inspection reports and paperwork and sent these to Canyon's material specialists for final inspection. Once this final inspection is completed we will contact you to discuss the options. In general we expect to have this information within 2 weeks and I would like to assure you that we will do everything we can to get this as quickly as possible."

APRIL 10
Canyon (18 days after my bike broke on the first ride)

"We have received the outcome from the inspection which we performed. I am happy to inform you that a new Frame will be provided free of charge under the warranty period from Canyon. The order for this has already been created and you should receive an order confirmation for this soon. We expect to receive this order within the next 1-2 weeks and will update you as soon as this is with us."

APRIL 10
Me:

"Will I be given an explanation as to why the frame broke on its first ride, or see a copy of the inspection report? Is this a common/uncommon phenomenon? I received an email saying someone would be in touch to discuss options. Do any other options exist?
Is there any way of speeding up the process? I have now been without my new Canyon bike since it broke through no fault of my own (leaving me with a near two-hour walk back to my car) on March 23 and if it takes a couple of weeks for the frame to reach you, it’s going to be the end of the month before I get the bike."

APRIL 11
Canyon

"I am afraid we are not able to send our internal reports. However I can confirm this is not common and we are going to replace your frame as quickly as possible. We do sometimes give people options and each case is treated on a cases by case bases. We have replaced your frame with the same colour and model. Due to you having the bike for such a short amount of time we didn't think you would want something different?"

APRIL 11
Me

"I find it incredibly frustrating that Canyon have not done what they can to remedy this issue more speedily; have failed to offer any explanation for what caused the frame to snap; and are unable to apologise for supplying me with a sub-standard bike in the first place. This approach to customer service suggests indifference bordering on arrogance.
I was fortunate in that the frame broke while I was riding a short uphill section: had I been descending at speed the implications could have been catastrophic.
Any inspection of the frame would have quickly concluded that the damage was caused by a faulty frame, rather than any physical damage caused by external factors. Given that the same size and model is still available in stock in the Factory Outlet, Canyon could have simply removed the wheels and shipped a new bike from Germany a week ago, and sent my own wheelset and the 100mm Canyon stem fitted to my bike from the UK separately.
Had Canyon wanted to make amends for a major error in their Quality Control process, and avoid some damaging PR, a 2018 bike could have been supplied from stock.
Instead, it is clear that Canyon has decided to take a course of action which involves the company incurring as little expense as possible with no acknowledgement of liability or contrition.
This is very disappointing and reflects very poorly on a company whose reputation is still tainted by recent historical issues around delivery and customer service.
I look forward to receiving my bike."

A Canyon UK representative then rang to explain that the process they were going through was the quickest possible way of rectifying the issue. This seemed to be based on the fact that they still have some 2016-17 MY frames in stock in Germany. He assured me that the frame would be with them well within the two weeks stated. I was informed the frame was in fact due to arrive by close of business last Friday (April 13) and had been booked into the workshop to be built on Wednesday 18th. I was also told that if the bike arrived in good time on Friday, the build could be brought forward to Monday 16th.

APRIL 13
I received confirmation from UPS that the frame had been delivered to Canyon UK at 9.28am

APRIL 16
Me (1.17pm)

"I am pleased to see that the replacement frame for my Canyon Ultimate was delivered to you early on Friday morning - can you please let me know if the bike has yet been rebuilt and when I can expect it to be returned?"

Canyon (6.22pm)
"

Thank you for your email. Your frame swap is due to commence on Monday 23rd. Once this has been completed the mechanic will contact you to arrange delivery."

Me (7.01pm)

"Can someone please explain why the build of my bike has been put back a week? When I spoke to (your colleague) last week he informed me that the bike was scheduled to go into workshop this Wednesday (April 18th) but could be moved forward to Monday (April 16th) if it arrived from Germany in good time last Friday.
The bike was delivered to you at 9.30am on Friday - so what’s happened? It is ridiculous that no work can be done on it for 9/10 days. A five-week turnaround to rectify a problem caused by poor Quality Control by Canyon is unacceptable."

So, that's where things stand. Four weeks after taking delivery of a £2,900 bike, and 24 days after it broke on its first ride, the manufacturer is still unable to put me back in the position I should be in from the date of delivery. And are not intending to begin assembly of my bike (with the replacement frame they received last Friday morning) for another 7 days.

What's more, Canyon have also declined to offer any explanation as to why the frame broke on the first ride and have shown absolutely zero contrition.

Annoyed doesn't begin to describe how I feel right now...

apreading

I am not sure that I would have been snapping at their heels quite as avidly as you, not to say you are wrong to do so. But having done so and had a less than happy interaction, it seems unlikely that you will ever be happy riding this bike now. In your current situation and with the bad feelings that you must have towards the company, which will probably live on as a bad taste every time you ride, I think I would be pushing for a refund and buy a bike elsewhere. Tell them the bike was obviously not fit for purpose and you reject it and want a refund.

They might deliver a very good and fully rectified bike in the end but they will never restore the joy that you were hoping to have in owning and riding what is a pretty expensive bike - that seems irrepairable now.

thesledge

I’ve had an Ultimate before and loved it - my experience will certainly make me think twice before ordering another Canyon but I’m pragmatic about this bike. I’m still really looking forward to receiving and riding it, and dont envisage having ‘leaving bad taste issues’.

I disagree with the view that I’ve been snapping at their heels. It’s not unreasonable to ask for an explanation as to why a frame should breakin its first ride, nor to question why the replacement process is taking so long.

I’ve not been harranguing them for updates or used any unduly aggressive language in my communications: clearly I am frustrated but surely that’s understandable?

lostboysaint

It is. And on that basis I'm struggling to understand why it won't leave "bad taste issues". If it was a bike from an LBS and I got that level of service I'd be letting them have it and, once resolved, never return. If they want to continue to take that market by selling direct then there level of service needs to be infinitely superior - and it isn't.

thesledge

I get all that chaps but the issues are (a) a faulty frame which will eventually be replaced; and (b) Canyon’s cavalier attitude to customer service, which I hopefully won’t have to deal with again once they return my bike.

If I’d bought a puppy from a backstreet seller that turned out to have fleas and worms but had a great temperament, my long-term enjoyment of the dog wouldn’t be diminished because it needed medication when it first arrived. I just need Canyon to give the dog they sold me the treatment it needs so I can enjoy it and never see them again.

cougie

Maybe I'm more patient but it wouldn't put me off.
Replacements do take time. I remember ordering custom steel frames back in the day and they were always late.

As to why it broke - well they clearly cocked up.

I'm sure it'll be worth it when you get it back on the road.
Thanks for keeping us updated.

redvision

Canyon have pissed me off with an order before however I don't really get what you're issue is.

They have acknowledged the frame was faulty and have agreed to replace it.
They have confirmed it was a rare failure.

Is your complaint that they are taking a bit of time to get the replacement to you? Or are you after some sort of compo?