Snapped frame - what might have caused this?

thesledge

I took delivery of a new Canyon Utimate CF SLX 8.0 di2 XL on Monday and rode it for the first time today after changing a few things: bike now has a 100mm stem (from 110) and is equipped with Hunt Aero Wide wheels and 25mm Conti GP4000s II tyres.

It looks and rides wonderfully. Or at least it did for the first three miles...

Just a few minutes into its debut ride I hit the first bit of incline and got out of the saddle - cue some annoying creaking noises from the bottom bracket area. Strange, I thought, maybe it's just the BB bedding in.

On retaking my seat the noise disappeared then returned after a short section of particularly grubby wet North Yorkshire road. Must be grit working its way through, I thought.

Five miles later I reached another incline and again got out of the saddle, prompting a loud cracking sound and lots of other nasty noises.

Looking down, I was horrified to see what had happened. The downtube has snapped a couple of inches above the bottom bracket and is connected by just 1.5cms of carbon: had I been descending at speed and the last 1.5cm had broken, I might not be here to write this.

Does anyone know what could have caused this, other than a faulty frame? The bike hadn't been ridden before and has no sign of damage anywhere (other than the crack). I'm a svelte (alright, skinny) 6ft 3in and 165lb and well past the age where I can ride aggressively. The new wheelset can't be a factor as it's well within tolerances.

Bike is being boxed back up this weekend and going back to Canyon on Wednesday - I have faith in their customer service as I struggle to see how I could have contributed to this calamitous situation.

Has this happened to anyone else? Can anyone advise what I ought to be doing - e.g. getting an independent report before the bike is returned to Canyon?

PS Please spare me the sermons about the advantages of buying from my LBS, the murky history of Canyon's ordering system (which worked perfectly for me) and all the 'plastic bike' bullsh*t from the pig iron brigade. Life's just too short

fenix

Woahhhh.

That must be a manufacturing defect ? No impact marks ?

thesledge

No marks at all - I was lucky, I suppose, that it didn't go on me completely. However, I'm crying inside.

Hope it's not going to be ages before I get this resolved but with Easter looming it's clear a few more weeks on the ferrous winter steed beckon.

I'm getting flashbacks from the year I won a football for having a joke published in the Beezer and it burst during our first game on the street

#unhappydays

haydenm

That's impressive! From what you've said I can't see how it could be anything other than a faulty frame, rare but these things happen. I think I'd just send it back, I can't see how or why they would try to avoid replacing it so good luck

I had a friend who's cannondale snapped like that out of a junction but it wasn't brand new, and he wasn't light!

lesfirth

I do not think I will be buying a Canyon. If they can make one frame that does that they can make another.
Just looking at the photos frightens me.

sloppyschleckonds

lesfirth wrote:

I do not think I will be buying a Canyon. If they can make one frame that does that they can make another.
Just looking at the photos frightens me.

:roll:

sloppyschleckonds

TheSledge wrote:

]

This is the picture that could almost be impact damage, be interesting to see what Canyon come up with. Hope you get it sorted. I've returned a damaged frame to Canyon before and their service was exemplary.

grenw

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

I've returned a damaged frame to Canyon before and their service was exemplary.

Have sent some forks back to them - crash damaged. Quick and efficient service - got a new set back within a week - didn't even have to send the old set back although it was under their cut price/crash replacement scheme.

StillGoing

Thank Christ you weren't bunny hopping over a pot hole. :-O

redvision

Clearly you're putting out too much power for the frame to handle

Surely has to be a manufacturing defect, and a pretty bloody big one!
Hope Canyon sort a replacement quickly for you.

DeVlaeminck

lesfirth wrote:

I do not think I will be buying a Canyon. If they can make one frame that does that they can make another.
Just looking at the photos frightens me.

Bit harsh, unless there was a glut of snapped canyons I'd see how they deal with it and if they sort it to the customer's satisfaction for me the whole episode would almost be a positive.

lesfirth

DeVlaeminck wrote:

lesfirth wrote:

I do not think I will be buying a Canyon. If they can make one frame that does that they can make another.
Just looking at the photos frightens me.

Bit harsh, unless there was a glut of snapped canyons I'd see how they deal with it and if they sort it to the customer's satisfaction for me the whole episode would almost be a positive.

Contrary to other contributors,I can not see any evidence of any impact damage in any photo. The fact that the frame has failed as the soon as the OP started to ride it is significant.Anyone involved in manufacturing anything will know that the maximum failure rate of their product will initially be at the start of its life.The failures will then drop dramatically and will only rise when the product starts to reach the end of its designed life.This is a classic case of an early life failure. The evidence is overwhelming that this is a result of a manufacturing defect. The fact that this frame has got past Canyons ( or whoever makes their frames) quality control points to the fact that their quality control, being polite, is inadequate.

When descending one of our crap roads at 80 kph I want to know that the weak part of the situation is my judgment and not my bike. Should my frame fail in that situation, the fact that, when I get out of A&E, the manufacturer will give me a new frame would be of no comfort.

There is little to choose between bike brands so when I pick my next new bike I will choose a manufacturer that has yet to show that their quality is questionable. I have no axe to grind it just makes sense to me.

thesledge

Thanks for the comments folks - will post updates once the bike has gone back and I get a response from Canyon.

As stated, the bike is brand new. The only impact could have come in transit from Germany or in the factory itself: however, there is absolutely no sign of impact damage. Looking at the crack again today, it seems like the orange sticker saved me - it's the only thing that managed to keep the downtube from snapping clean in two.

Has it put me off carbon bikes? Not at all: a few Boeings and Airbuses have gone down over the years and I remain confident in the ability of airlines to get me to my holiday destination safely.

Has it put me off Canyons? I'm pragmatic and accept that things sometimes go wrong. I'll defer judgement pending Canyon's actions to put things right, but I must say that dealing with them so far, from ordering the bike to reporting the catastrophic failure of the frame, has been very good.

thesledge

Thanks for the comments folks - will post updates once the bike has gone back and I get a response from Canyon.

As stated, the bike is brand new. The only impact could have come in transit from Germany or in the factory itself: however, there is absolutely no sign of impact damage. Looking at the crack again today, it seems like the orange sticker saved me - it's the only thing that managed to keep the downtube from snapping clean in two.

Has it put me off carbon bikes? Not at all: a few Boeings and Airbuses have gone down over the years and I remain confident in the ability of airlines to get me to my holiday destination safely.

Has it put me off Canyons? I'm pragmatic and accept that things sometimes go wrong. I'll defer judgement pending Canyon's actions to put things right, but I must say that dealing with them so far, from ordering the bike to reporting the catastrophic failure of the frame, has been very good.

bonzo_banana

I don't believe Quest make carbon frames as well as Giant or Merida but this is still surprising. Carbon frame manufacture is a manual slow process though. It may be a state of the art frame material but manufacturing it isn't, plenty of ways it can go wrong.

This is a picture of some carbon forks being constructed on the Quest site. I've used it a few times on bike forums and find it quite uninspiring with regard use of hair nets and low end unpadded seats. At the end of the day its a low cost chinese carbon frame but the end bike is marketed as German engineering quality. Carbon frames are coming out of Chinese factories for as little as $80 which admittedly is hugely more expensive than aluminium which are probably averaging about $20 each with $40 at the maximum limit but still there is a huge markup.

I also wonder about existing evolved frame designs that have been sold for many years compared to new designs. When Btwin had to recall 4 years production of e-bikes it was because they had re-designed the frame I believe and gone away from the Chinese manufacturer's existing portfolio of frame models so they had a unique design for their brand and product. The Chinese manufacturer's own frames had gone through many revisions and improvements with feedback from the importers around the world who gave them information on where the frames had failed previously. What is better innovation or evolution? I personally would say evolution most of the time unless the innovation is really worth having.

Could the frame have been overloaded, what is the maximum rider weight and what is the riders weight clothed etc. I'm just curious how close to the limit the rider was?



I have no connection with Giant and don't even have a Giant bike currently however I have to say their frame quality is exceptional, not only are they beautifully constructed, have high weight limits but also a lifetime warranty. I don't consider Trek or Canyon (Quest) to be comparable in quality. I'd be happier with a Canyon aluminium frame which are made by Giant but I think Giant's OEM carbon frames are just too expensive for many importers nowadays.

Mad_Malx

Bonzo Banana wrote:

Could the frame have been overloaded, what is the maximum rider weight and what is the riders weight clothed etc. I'm just curious how close to the limit the rider was?

The op is 75kg - unless he was wearing lead armor he isn't going to be overloading.
Only explanation I can see is that the frame was buggered and painted over.

- or maybe it was raining?

davidof

TheSledge wrote:

Thanks for the comments folks - will post updates once the bike has gone back and I get a response from Canyon.

As stated, the bike is brand new. The only impact could have come in transit from Germany or in the factory itself

I think you mean "chinese sweat shop".

But I agree I can't see any impact damage.

bonzo_banana

Mad_Malx wrote:

Bonzo Banana wrote:

Could the frame have been overloaded, what is the maximum rider weight and what is the riders weight clothed etc. I'm just curious how close to the limit the rider was?

The op is 75kg - unless he was wearing lead armor he isn't going to be overloading.
Only explanation I can see is that the frame was buggered and painted over.

- or maybe it was raining?

You say 75kg as low but btwin's weight limits are 100kg for the total load including weight of the bike. So if the bike weighs 12kg, it has 2kg of accessories fitted and the rider's clothes are 2kg plus lets say a small bag with 3kg of stuff that gives you a maximum rider weight of 81kg only 6kg away from its total capacity if you are 75kg. Average weight of man in UK is 82kg. I don't know what Canyon's weight limits are though, maybe varies by bike. Giant by comparison allows 136kg for rider weight for cyclocross bikes and 125kg for their performance bikes with luggage etc as additional weight capacity. I could ride a Giant bike but not a btwin. Unlikely the btwin bike would fail immediately though more likely I'd get a year or so out of it before the frame would start to crack and break, that's only a guess though.

http://www.btwin.com/notices/wp-content ... N_PE12.pdf

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/_upload_ ... -%20EN.pdf

drexel1975

Canyon's website shows the max overall weight on the Ultimate CF SLX frame as 120kg so the OP was never going to be anywhere near this. The bike weighs only 7.1kg in M so I don't know where you got the 12kg for the bike weight from. 75kg for the rider and say 8kg for the bike considering it's an XL still leaves 37kg for anything else before the bike is overloaded. That's not even including the safety factor which means that the 120kg will be a lot less than the actual max weight which can be used on the bike.

bonzo_banana

drexel1975 wrote:

Canyon's website shows the max overall weight on the Ultimate CF SLX frame as 120kg so the OP was never going to be anywhere near this. The bike weighs only 7.1kg in M so I don't know where you got the 12kg for the bike weight from. 75kg for the rider and say 8kg for the bike considering it's an XL still leaves 37kg for anything else before the bike is overloaded. That's not even including the safety factor which means that the 120kg will be a lot less than the actual max weight which can be used on the bike.

As stated I didn't know the weight capacity of the Canyon and was just giving an example of btwin which i did know which has quite low weight limits.

I don't know how carbon frame weight testing goes but as far as I know the carbon frames don't suffer from fatigue like aluminium and a lesser extent steel so the safety margin could be lower because an aluminium frame always gets weaker with every use because it has no endurance limit which would require a much higher strength at the beginning to allow for the weakening of the frame over time. I'm sure it will have a safety weight margin but could be reduced. I've dealt with certification in the past but not bikes and the company itself gets to declare what it decides is the weight limit based on the certification and test results on many occasions where there wasn't a forced safety margin. As a compliance officer I had to push to get the margin to a reasonable level but commercial interests often pushed it lower again. We often see bike frames that are sourced from the same far east factory under different brand names with slightly different weight limits. We also see importers that source from many different factories but have a standard weight limit across all models that are supplied with the same generic manual. I've even seen aluminium frames that are sourced from the same factory but have paid for additional reinforcing of the frame with seat tube to top tube additional plate or head tube to down tube gusset and still have a lower weight limit on the frame than an importer that supplies just the basic frame without additional reinforcing. Such reinforcing is often used to upgrade a Chinese retail spec frame to a stronger US/Euro spec frame.

Whatever this particular Canyon frame clearly wasn't capable of 75kg let alone 120kg.

cougie

Blimey. There's a lot of big boned chaps not allowed on BTwins. They should fit narrow doors on the shop. If you can't fit in you can't ride our bikes.

bonzo_banana

cougie wrote:

Blimey. There's a lot of big boned chaps not allowed on BTwins. They should fit narrow doors on the shop. If you can't fit in you can't ride our bikes.

Their weight limits also exclude many tall people who are still a normal weight for their size so perhaps those same doors should have a lower height too.

Probably more logical to have a bicycle return customer desk behind a door like this.

g00se

Bonzo Banana wrote:

Quite some 'luft' on the headwear in the foreground...

Chapeau!

bonzo_banana

g00se wrote:

Bonzo Banana wrote:

Quite some 'luft' on the headwear in the foreground...

Chapeau!

I'm unsure of the use of the world 'luft' in that context. Still unsure after reading this page.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Luft

The woman in the foreground definitely is not using that hat in the spirit of why it was designed. Maybe the Canyon frame of this thread snapped due to a unlucky poorly positioned lice or mite in the carbon fibre weaves at an important structural point.

g00se

Bonzo Banana wrote:

g00se wrote:

Bonzo Banana wrote:

Quite some 'luft' on the headwear in the foreground...

Chapeau!

I'm unsure of the use of the world 'luft' in that contex

All the luft: https://www.bicycling.com/culture/fashi ... ou/slide/3

supermurph09

lesfirth wrote:

I do not think I will be buying a Canyon. If they can make one frame that does that they can make another.
Just looking at the photos frightens me.

Just to help you, I'd imagine every manufacturer has had at least 1 frame break at some point.

dee4life2005

Only thing I can think of that might cause damage like that, other than a frame failure, would be an overly tight roof-rack mount on a car - particularly as the tube profile is more square than round. I'm assuming you haven't transported the bike on your car anywhere prior to your first ride?

thesledge

The bike was transported inside my Mondeo - I’d prefer to strap the kids to the roof rack than my best bike!!

bonzo_banana

TheSledge wrote:

The bike was transported inside my Mondeo - I’d prefer to strap the kids to the roof rack than my best bike!!

It's just a low cost Chinese carbon frame that will get bad examples. All this spirit of Italy for Italian brands and solid engineering for German brands is all marketing both are going to end up being a frame from some sweatshop Chinese factory but with a huge markup on top.

The reason people are trying to find a way to blame you is possibly their own perception of the brand's quality but that is achieved through marketing.

When the original 'Made in Germany' label came out it was by the British to warn of poor quality goods which was typical of German goods at the time and a similar story for Japan and then both had a transformation in quality. Nowadays German cars for example are the least reliable overall with the highest cost of ownership but it takes a long time for people's perceptions to change. Japanese cars in contrast have maintained their very high levels of reliability and low cost of ownership over many decades. The true engineering and quality geniuses in my opinion. You should always judge quality on a product by product basis though as even with Japanese cars there are some poor models.

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer

haydenm

lesfirth wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

lesfirth wrote:

I do not think I will be buying a Canyon. If they can make one frame that does that they can make another.
Just looking at the photos frightens me.

Bit harsh, unless there was a glut of snapped canyons I'd see how they deal with it and if they sort it to the customer's satisfaction for me the whole episode would almost be a positive.

Contrary to other contributors,I can not see any evidence of any impact damage in any photo. The fact that the frame has failed as the soon as the OP started to ride it is significant.Anyone involved in manufacturing anything will know that the maximum failure rate of their product will initially be at the start of its life.The failures will then drop dramatically and will only rise when the product starts to reach the end of its designed life.This is a classic case of an early life failure. The evidence is overwhelming that this is a result of a manufacturing defect. The fact that this frame has got past Canyons ( or whoever makes their frames) quality control points to the fact that their quality control, being polite, is inadequate.

When descending one of our crap roads at 80 kph I want to know that the weak part of the situation is my judgment and not my bike. Should my frame fail in that situation, the fact that, when I get out of A&E, the manufacturer will give me a new frame would be of no comfort.

There is little to choose between bike brands so when I pick my next new bike I will choose a manufacturer that has yet to show that their quality is questionable. I have no axe to grind it just makes sense to me.

I still think it's an overreaction not to buy one of their bikes on the back of this. It's unfortunate but not uncommon, you can find pictures of any bike snapped on the internet and you'd never ride a bike again. They sell thousands of bikes a year, this is one that got through quality control, a tiny tiny proportion

fenix

lesfirth wrote:

Contrary to other contributors,I can not see any evidence of any impact damage in any photo. The fact that the frame has failed as the soon as the OP started to ride it is significant.Anyone involved in manufacturing anything will know that the maximum failure rate of their product will initially be at the start of its life.The failures will then drop dramatically and will only rise when the product starts to reach the end of its designed life.This is a classic case of an early life failure. The evidence is overwhelming that this is a result of a manufacturing defect. The fact that this frame has got past Canyons ( or whoever makes their frames) quality control points to the fact that their quality control, being polite, is inadequate.

When descending one of our crap roads at 80 kph I want to know that the weak part of the situation is my judgment and not my bike. Should my frame fail in that situation, the fact that, when I get out of A&E, the manufacturer will give me a new frame would be of no comfort.

There is little to choose between bike brands so when I pick my next new bike I will choose a manufacturer that has yet to show that their quality is questionable. I have no axe to grind it just makes sense to me.

If you're that risk averse you probably shouldn't be cycling. For each fault that you hear about there's probably thousands of people with no issues - but who reports 'bought bike - it didn't break' ?