Froome Vuelta salbutamol problem

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  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    How much spare fat do you think Grooms has on stage 18?
    a bit less than he will have when its stage 18 this year
    At least he'll still be in yellow...
    Fat-Lady-on-a-Couch-in-a-Bikini-Painting-100208.jpg
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    TimothyW wrote:
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    How much spare fat do you think Grooms has on stage 18?
    Enough... it's pretty well established that on a several hour ride most of the energy will be/has to be derived from fat, as we are not capable of storing/ingesting sufficient glycogen/carbs to fuel it.
    So your argument is that he would just a drug to get rid of some of that fat the he needs for fuel.
    TimothyW wrote:
    Either way, I think you might be missing the point - anything that stops your body from breaking down your muscles for food, that helps you maintain your power output despite doing things that would normally put it in a catabolic state (such as riding a grand tour...) is obviously worth doing.
    So how does taking away the fat help with this?

    You've not thought this through have you?
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    darkhairedlord wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    How much spare fat do you think Grooms has on stage 18?
    a bit less than he will have when its stage 18 this year
    At least he'll still be in yellow...
    Fat-Lady-on-a-Couch-in-a-Bikini-Painting-100208.jpg


    only just in lololol
  • timothyw
    timothyw Posts: 2,482
    RichN95 wrote:
    TimothyW wrote:
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    How much spare fat do you think Grooms has on stage 18?
    Enough... it's pretty well established that on a several hour ride most of the energy will be/has to be derived from fat, as we are not capable of storing/ingesting sufficient glycogen/carbs to fuel it.
    So your argument is that he would just a drug to get rid of some of that fat the he needs for fuel.
    Well, yes, but it seems you're unprepared to countenance the idea so you seem to be rushing to dismiss it.

    What does a rider do after a hard stage?

    Well, they eat a lot of food. They need to restore their glycogen reserves. They need to maintain their fat levels.

    If a person has really hammered themselves in a ride, then the risk is that while they wait for the body to digest the fuel they've ingested, their body starts breaking down their muscles for fuel. This is obviously undesirable.

    For a grand tour rider maximising power to weight is pretty much the goal - it means they can sustain greater pace up the mountains.

    Here's the research:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8002550

    Get a person down to 5% bodyfat and they start to lose muscle.

    Maybe, give them Clen/Salbutamol and they keep the muscle and instead lose a bit more fat.
    TimothyW wrote:
    Either way, I think you might be missing the point - anything that stops your body from breaking down your muscles for food, that helps you maintain your power output despite doing things that would normally put it in a catabolic state (such as riding a grand tour...) is obviously worth doing.
    So how does taking away the fat help with this?

    You've not thought this through have you?

    I'm not a biologist or sport scientist - are you? :lol:

    I'm trying to think it through. It seems to me though, if a person is burning fat, then they perhaps aren't burning muscle.

    I don't know if Salbutamol works that way - maybe it doesn't, maybe it does just leave you jittery and with a higher base rate of calorie consumption - but if it protects your muscles, and hence your power, over the course of a grand tour then that is a performance enhancement isn't it?

    I mean, looking back at the dodgy TUE's Brad had for Kenacourt, Millar describes the effects of it thus:
    “The three times I took Kenacort were also the times I was the lightest I’d been in my career, yet I didn’t lose power — often the penalty when a rider sheds weight. Physically, I looked like a machine, muscle fibres were visible and a road map of veins crisscrossed my entire body.”

    That's exactly the behaviour that historically, clenbuterol was abused for, and perhaps now salbutamol is abused for?

    Again, honestly, couldn't care less if Froome is on the gear or not, just interested to consider it.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,160
    It's your logic we are struggling with.
    Earlier you suggest he takes a bucket of sal the night before, in the belief it will be gone by the end of the next stage, the very point where he will be most prone to muscle breakdown. you are now saying he needs to replenish his fat between stages, but this assumed bucket isn't going to help with that.

    Fwiw I think he had too many toots and so should get a ban consistent with previous cases. But he's entitled to show that he has unusual clearance (because that's the rules), and some previous scientific reports suggest that this might be an issue.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,398
    TimothyW wrote:
    I don't know if Salbutamol works that way - maybe it doesn't, maybe it does just leave you jittery and with a higher base rate of calorie consumption - but if it protects your muscles, and hence your power, over the course of a grand tour then that is a performance enhancement isn't it?

    FWIW, I don't think it is supposed to have magical muscle protecting properties. The effect is supposed to be increasing metabolic rate https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 8-0012.pdf

    There's no need to increase metabolic rate that late in a GT.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    TimothyW wrote:
    I mean, looking back at the dodgy TUE's Brad had for Kenacourt, Millar describes the effects of it thus:
    “The three times I took Kenacort were also the times I was the lightest I’d been in my career, yet I didn’t lose power — often the penalty when a rider sheds weight. Physically, I looked like a machine, muscle fibres were visible and a road map of veins crisscrossed my entire body.”

    That's exactly the behaviour that historically, clenbuterol was abused for, and perhaps now salbutamol is abused for?
    Millar was using it out of competition to prepare for races and strip away excess fat. Not in the third week of a Grand Tour.

    What performance enhancing properties salbutamol may have are really only of use out of competition and only when taken in quite large amounts over a prolonged period. And even you'd be better off using cortisone which isn't banned out of competition.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,160
    And we are now mixing up the anecdotal benefits of glucocorticoids with the marginal benefits of salbutamol, which works by a very different biochemical action. And neither going to help in competition.
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    RichN95 wrote:
    TimothyW wrote:
    I've not read any of Froome's books, but I've heard second hand there are a few mentions of bilharzia but absolutely no mentions of the Asthma he has apparently suffered from since childhood - anyone else actually read them?
    It's not in the book because it's not particularly interesting.

    The British sportsman with the biggest media profile in history is probably David Beckham. No-one knew he had asthma until he was 34.

    Didn’t Beckham also play for Real Madrid that were the central footballerist Club caught up in Puerto? Wasn’t he there when he was 34 and his asthma was “discovered” although he managed to do years at United where his asthma wasn’t discovered’ although they were quite good at the time?

    Or is it a coincidence?

    Who knows.......
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Matthewfalle wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    TimothyW wrote:
    I've not read any of Froome's books, but I've heard second hand there are a few mentions of bilharzia but absolutely no mentions of the Asthma he has apparently suffered from since childhood - anyone else actually read them?
    It's not in the book because it's not particularly interesting.

    The British sportsman with the biggest media profile in history is probably David Beckham. No-one knew he had asthma until he was 34.

    Didn’t Beckham also play for Real Madrid that were the central footballerist Club caught up in Puerto? Wasn’t he there when he was 34 and his asthma was “discovered” although he managed to do years at United where his asthma wasn’t discovered’ although they were quite good at the time?

    Or is it a coincidence?

    Who knows.......
    No. He was at LA Galaxy
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    Blimey - that’s even more shocking then.

    So, you’re saying that both United and Real (who are also quite a big team as well) didn’t notice this asthma?

    Or the England national set up?
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,160
    Maybe he didn't feel the need to tell you about it.
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    Wasn’t he also at United when Ferdinand failed his drug test - sorry - didn’t turn up for it because he was shopping - and was banned?

    As an aside, Ferdinand also has “asthma”

    What a coincidence.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Matthewfalle wrote:
    Blimey - that’s even more shocking then.

    So, you’re saying that both United and Real (who are also quite a big team as well) didn’t notice this asthma?

    Or the England national set up?
    No, of course they knew about it. Why do you think they didn't?
    Matthewfalle wrote:
    Wasn’t he also at United when Ferdinand failed his drug test - sorry - didn’t turn up for it because he was shopping - and was banned?
    No, he was at Real Madrid by then
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    RichN95 wrote:
    Matthewfalle wrote:
    Blimey - that’s even more shocking then.

    So, you’re saying that both United and Real (who are also quite a big team as well) didn’t notice this asthma?

    Or the England national set up?
    No, of course they knew about it. Why do you think they didn't?
    Matthewfalle wrote:
    Wasn’t he also at United when Ferdinand failed his drug test - sorry - didn’t turn up for it because he was shopping - and was banned?
    No, he was at Real Madrid by then

    With both having had a history of asthma at the same club that was embroiled I drug scandals?
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Matthewfalle wrote:

    With both having had a history of asthma at the same club that was embroiled I drug scandals?
    When was there a doping scandal at Manchester United?

    Lots of people have asthma. It's not a big deal.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    RichN95 wrote:
    Matthewfalle wrote:

    With both having had a history of asthma at the same club that was embroiled I drug scandals?
    When was there a doping scandal at Manchester United?

    Lots of people have asthma. It's not a big deal.

    Not having had a bona fide doping scandal is not surprising given footballs approach to the problem and the general apathy surrounding the issue.

    That doesn't mean of course that there is not potentially scandalous doping
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,160
    This thread has now gone completely batsh!t. Someone suggesting industrial quantities being taken the night before to shed fat then in the next breath stating the importance of maintaining body fat as a source of fuel and now Beckham being one of the millions of asthmatics being linked to Real Madrid's part in Puerto (albeit by the threads regular WUMs).
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,704
    From inhalers to blood bags. You name it, Fuentes stocked it.
    The bust ought to have been named Operación Botas.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    RichN95 wrote:
    Matthewfalle wrote:

    With both having had a history of asthma at the same club that was embroiled I drug scandals?
    When was there a doping scandal at Manchester United?

    Lots of people have asthma. It's not a big deal.

    Ferdinand for one. Phil Jones, Daly Blind.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • kleinstroker
    kleinstroker Posts: 2,133
    Was watching one of the diet programmes yesterday, and apparently the magic number for caffeine enhanced performance boost is 3mg/kg, so presumably the boost from a single filter coffee will enhance performance more than that from salbutamol and yet it is obviously not controlled in any way.

    Anybody tried it and can confirm it works?
  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    Lemond has had his say
    http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racin ... hed-364542

    Looks like this may run and run as apparently WADA may get involved
    http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racin ... ent-364533
  • timothyw
    timothyw Posts: 2,482
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    And we are now mixing up the anecdotal benefits of glucocorticoids with the marginal benefits of salbutamol, which works by a very different biochemical action. And neither going to help in competition.
    If they aren't going to help in competition, then why is there a limit? Why has Froome been popped?

    As I said before, I'm not by any stretch a biologist so can't claim to understand the mechanisms at work, but it seems fair to point out he had quite a good day on the same day that he was popped, right?

    Or that when Ulissi was popped, he'd been having rather a good Giro, having won two stages?

    Could abuse of Salbutamol (rather than having a fat burning boost) be a simple anabolic recovery drug? Seems not to be completely out of the question - http://www.clinsci.org/content/83/5/615
  • wildpig
    wildpig Posts: 39
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    FWIW, I don't think it is supposed to have magical muscle protecting properties. The effect is supposed to be increasing metabolic rate https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 8-0012.pdf

    There's no need to increase metabolic rate that late in a GT.

    Without looking at that study in a huge amount of detail - and it is 25 years old:
    The study used subjects who have fasted, and abstained from caffeine for 6 hours.
    The subjects were tested while lying down and listening to quiet music.

    Standing up would be enough to increase BMR, as would eating a biscuit.

    However, if we go down this route, how about a couple of studies that do show benefits?
    From 2000 - effective ergogenic aid in non-asthmatic men (increased peak torque, increased time for endurance)
    From 2005 - peak and mean power significantly increased with salbutamol vs placebo, blood glucose and insulin significantly increased by salbutamol at rest and during recovery - bearing in mind that insulin manipulation has been used for donkey's years to prevent muscle breakdown.
    2005 - longer term ingestion shows peak power significantly increased and time to peak power significantly decreased
    2006 - longer term ingestion showed increase in peak power and decreased time to maximal power
    2012 - significant ergogenic aid for non-asthmatic athletes

    Now why would he want to take something like this?

    Additionally, the type of drug that salbutamol is will stimulate fat loss. It's mentioned earlier in the thread - but for exercise fuel the body will preferentially burn gut contents/carbs, then fat, then muscle. The muscle breakdown also occurs post race to release amino acids etc, hence needing to take on protein to minimise this, or even manipulating insulin to avoid it and increase glycogen storage, helping performance and recovery . If he can achieve maximal fat loss via medicinal stimulation, he also maintains muscle for longer, and with 2-3 days left of a GT it's not too far fetched to imagine the scenario where he's had a terrible day, and decided with his team that he needs an edge to avoid muscle degradation.

    So let's look...

    Stage 16 - Froome wins, extends lead
    Stage 17 - Froome struggles, lead is cut by 42 seconds - post race interview he states he "feels good"
    Stage 18 - Froome attacks late, extends lead again by 21 seconds (and delivers an adverse test). Post race interview he says "I felt quite within myself today", and "I felt fine today" (in response to the question 'are you 100% fit and healthy?') - which does not seem to tally at all with requiring a huge dose of inhaled salbutamol (over and above anything that he has returned before, despite apparently meticulous work with his team Dr) that he can optimally inhale, hold his breath and achieve greater than normal lung delivery of the substance, whilst riding at supramaximal effort?

    Forgive me if I'm sceptical.
  • carbonclem
    carbonclem Posts: 1,771
    redvision wrote:
    Lemond has had his say
    http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racin ... hed-364542

    When people feel they have to say something, they don't really have anything useful or insightful to say, but it doesn't stop them.

    I like ol' Greg, but he does try my patience .... :lol:
    2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner
  • wildpig
    wildpig Posts: 39
    Matthewfalle wrote:
    Wasn’t he also at United when Ferdinand failed his drug test - sorry - didn’t turn up for it because he was shopping - and was banned?

    As an aside, Ferdinand also has “asthma”

    What a coincidence.

    It's just amazing, isn't it! :lol:
  • wildpig
    wildpig Posts: 39
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Not having had a bona fide doping scandal is not surprising given footballs approach to the problem and the general apathy surrounding the issue.

    That doesn't mean of course that there is not potentially scandalous doping

    Just leave Pep Guardiola and Man City in here as well:

    Pep's history (all verifiable)
    https://twitter.com/AdamJosephSport/sta ... 8745243648

    Man City (DM link first one I found, because I need to go back to work)
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sports ... onths.html

    Ben Mendy flying to Barcelona for more tests on his knee injury
    Vincent Kompany flying to Barcelona for treatment
    Gabriel Jesus flown to Barcelona for knee injury rehabilitation

    Nothing to see here :wink:
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    TimothyW wrote:
    As I said before, I'm not by any stretch a biologist so can't claim to understand the mechanisms at work
    Then I would recommend listening to what the actual experts say rather than trying to generate your own 'facts'.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    Matthewfalle wrote:
    Wasn’t he also at United when Ferdinand failed his drug test - sorry - didn’t turn up for it because he was shopping - and was banned?

    As an aside, Ferdinand also has “asthma”

    What a coincidence.

    I think it's been stated further up thread that it's sports induced asthma due to the training etc they have to put their bodies through. Hence why loads of cyclists have it too.

    Hasn't Froome has asthma since he was a child ?
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,398
    wildpig wrote:
    Stage 17 - Froome struggles, lead is cut by 42 seconds - post race interview he states he "feels good"
    Stage 18 - Froome attacks late, extends lead again by 21 seconds (and delivers an adverse test). Post race interview he says "I felt quite within myself today", and "I felt fine today" (in response to the question 'are you 100% fit and healthy?') - which does not seem to tally at all with requiring a huge dose of inhaled salbutamol (over and above anything that he has returned before, despite apparently meticulous work with his team Dr) that he can optimally inhale, hold his breath and achieve greater than normal lung delivery of the substance, whilst riding at supramaximal effort?

    Forgive me if I'm sceptical.

    No problem with the rest of what you've said but why would he advertise he wasn't feeling great in post-stage interviews... Seems like a really stupid thing to do.

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