Froome Vuelta salbutamol problem

inseine

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

There is precedent that you get done for this too.

Petacchi tested over the limit for salbutamol, had it absolved by the italian fed, and then that was overruled by CAS.

A better precedent is Ulissi - more recent and under current rules. He got a nine month ban. I’d expect similar here.

I may be wrong but I think Petaccho would have been cleared under current rules.

Did Ulissi have a TUE? I thought that was the issue. Still if it's really 2000 it's a above the maximum allowed even with a TUE

epc06

Richj wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Germcevoy wrote:

Shite From sky as well. Releasing a presser because of likely media interest even though they’ve known for two months yet they only release it twenty minutes before the UCI break the news.

Due process means it should be confidential until B samples tested, investigation is completed, etc. They've only come out with that as it's been leaked and they want to try and control the narrative. Standard behaviour from a media-savvy organisation.

thought both a & b samples were positive, or have I mis read that

Both positive

t5nel

inseine wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

There is precedent that you get done for this too.

Petacchi tested over the limit for salbutamol, had it absolved by the italian fed, and then that was overruled by CAS.

A better precedent is Ulissi - more recent and under current rules. He got a nine month ban. I’d expect similar here.

I may be wrong but I think Petaccho would have been cleared under current rules.

Did Ulissi have a TUE? I thought that was the issue. Still if it's really 2000 it's a above the maximum allowed even with a TUE

Does anyone on here understand what the benefit, if any, of having so much in the blood stream. I would have thought there was no effect pas an optimum dose (i.e. airways open.)

salsiccia1

Rick Chasey wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Germcevoy wrote:

Shite From sky as well. Releasing a presser because of likely media interest even though they’ve known for two months yet they only release it twenty minutes before the UCI break the news.

Due process means it should be confidential until B samples tested, investigation is completed, etc. They've only come out with that as it's been leaked and they want to try and control the narrative. Standard behaviour from a media-savvy organisation.

Hang on.

If they've known for two months, why play all the silly buggers with the Giro?

They're confident he'll get off/€2m makes it worth a punt/if they didn't people would think there's something up*

*delete as appropriate

Dorset_Boy

Oh dear, don't look good......

larkim

I wonder if the issue will now hang around actually consumed dosage rather than urine concentration at time of test.

Global DRO says:+-
" Salbutamol is not prohibited up to a maximum of 1600 micrograms over 24 hours, not to exceed 800 micrograms every 12 hours. This threshold is not valid in the presence of diuretics. If you are using a diuretic you must have a Therapeutic Use Exemption to use both the diuretic and salbutamol."

epc06

t5nel wrote:

inseine wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

There is precedent that you get done for this too.

Petacchi tested over the limit for salbutamol, had it absolved by the italian fed, and then that was overruled by CAS.

A better precedent is Ulissi - more recent and under current rules. He got a nine month ban. I’d expect similar here.

I may be wrong but I think Petaccho would have been cleared under current rules.

Did Ulissi have a TUE? I thought that was the issue. Still if it's really 2000 it's a above the maximum allowed even with a TUE

Does anyone on here understand what the benefit, if any, of having so much in the blood stream. I would have thought there was no effect pas an optimum dose (i.e. airways open.)

Not really the point is it.

dish_dash

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Oh and I do believe I hear robust chuckles emanating from a house in Chorley

Also from a couple of offices in the City...

RichN95.

inseine wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

There is precedent that you get done for this too.

Petacchi tested over the limit for salbutamol, had it absolved by the italian fed, and then that was overruled by CAS.

A better precedent is Ulissi - more recent and under current rules. He got a nine month ban. I’d expect similar here.

I may be wrong but I think Petaccho would have been cleared under current rules.

Did Ulissi have a TUE? I thought that was the issue. Still if it's really 2000 it's a above the maximum allowed even with a TUE

No. People haven't needed TUE's for salbutamol since about 2010. Ulissi was in 2014.

hanshotfirst

Is it likely that Sky are biding time to try and come up with some scientific reasoning for the failed test?

Like that way you can be less drunk if you have a stomach full of starchy food? They'll be like "Oh it depends on the body, because his blood was thin from altitude/riding hard (or some nonsense), it's much higher than it appears so we haven't cheated and it's just been an accident" ??

haydenm

t5nel wrote:

inseine wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

There is precedent that you get done for this too.

Petacchi tested over the limit for salbutamol, had it absolved by the italian fed, and then that was overruled by CAS.

A better precedent is Ulissi - more recent and under current rules. He got a nine month ban. I’d expect similar here.

I may be wrong but I think Petaccho would have been cleared under current rules.

Did Ulissi have a TUE? I thought that was the issue. Still if it's really 2000 it's a above the maximum allowed even with a TUE

Does anyone on here understand what the benefit, if any, of having so much in the blood stream. I would have thought there was no effect pas an optimum dose (i.e. airways open.)

As far as the brief internet research I have done it seems that salbutamol is a performance normaliser rather than a performance enhancer. I was, however, under the impression that it was pretty difficult to get anywhere near the limit so I have no idea what he was up to. I'd be more worried if it was a high concentration of the drugs in Fostair (which I'm on now) as it can mask other drugs, being a corticosteroid

"The results of this study suggest that the current WADA guidelines, which
allows athletes to inhale up to 1600 µg of Salbutamol is sufficient to avoid
pharmaceutical induced performance enhancement. However, such high doses not
only suggest poor management of asthma but also mean that an athlete may be at
risk of contravening the current urinary threshold, particularly in hot environments."

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/ ... hyte_0.pdf

ocdupalais

Froome’s so competitive- Contador had a ban so he has to get one, too.

inseine

RichN95 wrote:

inseine wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

There is precedent that you get done for this too.

Petacchi tested over the limit for salbutamol, had it absolved by the italian fed, and then that was overruled by CAS.

A better precedent is Ulissi - more recent and under current rules. He got a nine month ban. I’d expect similar here.

I may be wrong but I think Petaccho would have been cleared under current rules.

Did Ulissi have a TUE? I thought that was the issue. Still if it's really 2000 it's a above the maximum allowed even with a TUE

No. People haven't needed TUE's for salbutamol since about 2010. Ulissi was in 2014.

''For inhaled salbutamol, you must obtain a TUE if you need to take more than 1600 micrograms over 24 hours in divided doses not to exceed 800 micrograms over 12 hours starting from any dose.''

RichN95.

inseine wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

inseine wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

There is precedent that you get done for this too.

Petacchi tested over the limit for salbutamol, had it absolved by the italian fed, and then that was overruled by CAS.

A better precedent is Ulissi - more recent and under current rules. He got a nine month ban. I’d expect similar here.

I may be wrong but I think Petaccho would have been cleared under current rules.

Did Ulissi have a TUE? I thought that was the issue. Still if it's really 2000 it's a above the maximum allowed even with a TUE

No. People haven't needed TUE's for salbutamol since about 2010. Ulissi was in 2014.

''For inhaled salbutamol, you must obtain a TUE if you need to take more than 1600 micrograms over 24 hours in divided doses not to exceed 800 micrograms over 12 hours starting from any dose.''

Exactly. For standard use you don't need a TUE. You're not going to get a TUE for excessive use due to asthma.

bobmcstuff

inseine wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

inseine wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

There is precedent that you get done for this too.

Petacchi tested over the limit for salbutamol, had it absolved by the italian fed, and then that was overruled by CAS.

A better precedent is Ulissi - more recent and under current rules. He got a nine month ban. I’d expect similar here.

I may be wrong but I think Petaccho would have been cleared under current rules.

Did Ulissi have a TUE? I thought that was the issue. Still if it's really 2000 it's a above the maximum allowed even with a TUE

No. People haven't needed TUE's for salbutamol since about 2010. Ulissi was in 2014.

''For inhaled salbutamol, you must obtain a TUE if you need to take more than 1600 micrograms over 24 hours in divided doses not to exceed 800 micrograms over 12 hours starting from any dose.''

There isn't necessarily a direct relationship between the amount inhaled and the amount in urine though. Which I presume is going to be the basis of any defence from what Brailsford said.

mfin

Anyone who feels this is awful news needs their head seeing to. He's a cyclist, and this particular revelation has no shock value at all really. At the moment it looks like he's had too many puffs on an inhaler, using the inhaler is something he does all the time.

I can't see the big deal even if he did get a ban. It is what it is.

The only thing I was left thinking is how many puffs of salbutamol over what timeframe are likely to have resulted in that test result? As one of many people reading the news who also take salbutamol, it would be interesting to hear a rough ballpark here. Anyone know?

haydenm

If I was taking my blue inhaler that much in 24 hours I would need a nebuliser, (or this amazing new one I've got, if anyone is having trouble with asthma I highly recommend Fostair)

salsiccia1

I reckon he'll be cleared on the technicalities. Not saying that's right or wrong.

markhewitt1978

larkim wrote:

I wonder if the issue will now hang around actually consumed dosage rather than urine concentration at time of test.

Global DRO says:+-
" Salbutamol is not prohibited up to a maximum of 1600 micrograms over 24 hours, not to exceed 800 micrograms every 12 hours. This threshold is not valid in the presence of diuretics. If you are using a diuretic you must have a Therapeutic Use Exemption to use both the diuretic and salbutamol."

Standard inhaler dose is 100mg - however it's not uncommon to need to take two. So that's 4 goes in a 12 hour period - that's not a lot tbh and if you're racing flat out I could easily see how more was needed.

larkim

From Hayden's link above, the following will undoubtedly be where Sky / Froome will seek to confirm that despite the AAR they will have (unverifiable) evidence that he was within the limits and that the AAR is as a result of dehydration / body mass loss causing the outcome reported. Which, on the face of it, would be at the very least entirely plausible if backed up with already freely available science:-

The results of this study demonstrate
that following the inhalation of 1600 µg it is possible to present with urine
Salbutamol concentrations above the current WADA limit (1000 ng.ml-1) and
decision limit (1200 ng.ml-1) for salbutamol resulting in an adverse analytical
finding (AAF; WADA, 2010) and warrant further investigation. There were no
differences according to sex or ethnic origin however; a large inter-individual
variation existed. In conclusion, a BM loss greater than 2% concomitant to the
acute inhalation of 1600 µg of Salbutamol may result in a urine concentration
above the current WADA upper limit and decision limit leading to a positive test
finding. This finding is independent of gender or ethnic origin. Hydration status per
se is a critical factor in relation to doping control. The results of this study suggest
that WADA consider the role of normalising drug concentrations to urine specific 
gravity in an attempt to negate the impact of hydration status on doping control
tests. Data from this study will assist WADA in the implementation of regulations on
the use of inhaled short acting β2-agonist and assist in the resolution of contested
doping violations.

hanshotfirst

mfin wrote:

I can't see the big deal even if he did get a ban. It is what it is.

Come ON now! I mean he'll only be stripped of his first and now possibly only Vuelta title, the honour of being the only Brit to ever win it and the first man to do the double in all these years. Not a big deal like.

inseine

mfin wrote:

Anyone who feels this is awful news needs their head seeing to. He's a cyclist, and this particular revelation has no shock value at all really. At the moment it looks like he's had too many puffs on an inhaler, using the inhaler is something he does all the time.

I can't see the big deal even if he did get a ban. It is what it is.

Compared to the wider world of course sport is not really important, but if you accept that it is of some value then this is quite a big deal. The wider public (and even hard core fans) get turned off if they think all cyclists are dopers. This used to be the case and what has happened to Wiggins and now Froome isn't good for the health of the sport if it wants to gain a wider appeal.

DeVlaeminck

Rick Chasey wrote:

Hang on.

If they've known for two months, why play all the silly buggers with the Giro?

Does make you wonder. I suppose it may just be a case of carry on as normal in the hope that they can come up with sufficient excuse that they can dodge a bullet on this, or perhaps a short backdated ban so he just loses the Vuelta and is back in time for the Giro.

Nibali's palmares starts to look pretty close to Froome's if they can't get off this though.

joe2008

oxoman wrote:

As my Mrs,s suffers from asthma and when she pushes excercise hard and it kicks in she doesn't care if it's the right dose or not. She will use it till it takes effect. Her GP will routinely double the dose if suffering in cold weather etc. Either way he was directed by his team doctor so not really done anything wrong

I guess she's not having to pass WADA's doping control process then?

sherer

didn't see this one coming. I'm sure twitter and the clinic have gone into meltdown over this.

Does anyone know IF he had intentionally taken double the allowed dosage what performance benefits that would bring ?
Seems it's more about flushing it out of the body taking longer than the dosage on the day

Matthewfalle

oxoman wrote:

As my Mrs,s suffers from asthma and when she pushes excercise hard and it kicks in she doesn't care if it's the right dose or not. She will use it till it takes effect. Her GP will routinely double the dose if suffering in cold weather etc. Either way he was directed by his team doctor so not really done anything wrong

Yes he has because he is a professional athlete and is bound by the rules that govern him - otherwise he could use the excuse that his doctor told him to get smacked up and stick a Gixer thou motor on his bike.

Failed A and B samples, guilty as.

cgfw201

Another bit of piss poor PR from Sky. He’s well over the limit, and based on the Ulissi case will get a totally deserved ban. Will be entertaining watching Brailsford try and spin another web of lies for the next few weeks until this unravels.

If Froome gets banned, surely Sky will pull the plug on the team if they stick to their word. That opens up a whole new can of worms.

I’m bored to death of Sky pretending they are whiter than white, when they are so clearly not so more than happy to see them crash and burn.

awavey

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Standard inhaler dose is 100mg - however it's not uncommon to need to take two. So that's 4 goes in a 12 hour period - that's not a lot tbh and if you're racing flat out I could easily see how more was needed.

Yes two puffs is fairly common,but four in 24hrs let alone 12 would have your doctor putting you on much stronger medication,those that require tues obv, and you wouldn't feel much like riding a bike that quickly.

But I thought it had been worked out to be equiv of half the entire load of an inhaler was the limit,which would be akin to a severe asthma attack.

Regardless the outcome, I think his reputation is probably knackered

RichN95.

A major problem that no-one has mentioned yet is Sky's policy of not employing people who have had a doping infringement. They'll have to do a lot of spinning and/or reassessment to keep him on the team.

cruff

I've got Wiggins' Instagram feed on a 5 second refresh at the moment...