Does anyone use a decent sized van in place of a car? (Bike transport)

daniel_b

Family test drive of a Grand Tourneo Connect at the weekend.

Didn't have great expectations, but I, and critically my gf, were both extremely impressed with it.

It's cavernous inside, and the seats are easy to manipulate.

The interior is what I would describe as nice looking, but also practical and well designed - it's not plush by any means, and there are plastics all over the place, but I don't overly care about the interior, as long as the seat is comfy, and I can see out the window, I am not really looking or assessing the quality of the plastics - always riles me how car reviewers harp on about the quality of the plastic :roll:

Drivers seat is fully (8 ways!) adjustable for height, tilt, and lumbar etc, so you can get the proper van driving position shoul you want it - and the wheel is adjustable for rake and reach.
Manual gearbox was lovely, really smooth, and easy to make the changes, and due to where the gear lever sits, it's better than most manual cars i have driven, with the exception of an Elise, in how it is just in 'the' right place.
I've not driven a manual regularly for 6 years, and normally when I get back in one my reading of the clutch takes a little while to kick in, but on this it was easy.
1.5 Tdci was equally impressive, not rattly at idle at all, to the point my gf had to double check aferwards that it was indeed a diesel!
Picked up nicely if you wanted a bit of acceleration, and just an overall highly highly imprssive package, seem like stunning value for money, if you want a relatively no nonesense vehicle with epic length and height carrying capacity.

Pretty much sold on one I think, have popped a £100 deposit down on one going by description only, hoping to get pics on Tuesday, and then view and test drive on Thursday.
Does anyone on here take out extended warranties?
I never have, and this one will have 9 months left on the standard warranty, but have never spent this much on a relatively modern car.

daniel_b

Daniel B wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Daniel B wrote:

I have not looked in detail, but I think they are not as long as the Doblo, which I think tops it, as well as the likes of the Berlingo and Kangoo etc - also not sure they make a passenger variant, but will check it out.

Passenger variant is the Tourneo Connect, the LWB version is the Grand Tourneo Connect...

Me-109 wrote:

Not sure about petrol options but have you considered a Ford Transit Connect / Tourneo? They seem to have long wheelbase options too but they may be only the latest model.

Gents, assuming you both are, I think between you, you may have hit the jackpot for me here.

Again, thankyou both - went way over my original intended budget, and swapped over from petrol to diesel, and as wanted the euro 6, so £30 road tax version, had to stump up for the more modern 1.5. So after a 2 hour drive to Huntingdon at the weekend, a very close relative of this will be delivered to me on Wednesday:


For a 2 year old vehicle, it does seem stunning vfm, and if it's reliable, I can see us hanging onto it for 10+ years easily.

Few jobs to do already, firstly get all of the spare parts to fit a spare wheel underneath, and buy a spare wheel - wtf do they not supply them anymore :?
Good facebook page on the model, with lots of helpful people on there, so have a full parts list, and wheels are cheap on ebay.
Also going to fit a bumper protector, and need to remove the 2 rear seats, and then, and only then can I begin to fathom out the most secure and easy way to transport bicycles within!

JeemyW

Not read all 7 pages, but thought I'd chime in in case I can offer advice/input.

I build touring/race/campervans for people. Mainly VW T5/T5.1 and Merc Vito. I work a lot with windsurfers, board length is 2-2.4m usually.

Neither of these will hold bikes internally very well, if you have rear seats. With a SWB van you can get things in diagonally with no rear seats, even with a bulkhead. With a LWB van you can squeeze a short bike/board in with 1 row of back seats. If you only use one back seat, options get better. LWB T5 with the 3rd/back row of seats out, will fit 2 adult bikes diagonally plus 1-2 kids bikes (I put a balance bike and a little BMX in on our recent holiday).

I bought an Espace recently (7 seats) and it won't fit an adult bike in the back even if you use only the first back row; if you fold the first back row seats down you can do it, but its messy. I am going to change it for a Grand Espace but I doubt it will change matters.

I love customising vehicles for usage so would be happy to discuss this more, I'll start reading back through the thread....

daniel_b

JeemyW wrote:

Not read all 7 pages, but thought I'd chime in in case I can offer advice/input.

I build touring/race/campervans for people. Mainly VW T5/T5.1 and Merc Vito. I work a lot with windsurfers, board length is 2-2.4m usually.

Neither of these will hold bikes internally very well, if you have rear seats. With a SWB van you can get things in diagonally with no rear seats, even with a bulkhead. With a LWB van you can squeeze a short bike/board in with 1 row of back seats. If you only use one back seat, options get better. LWB T5 with the 3rd/back row of seats out, will fit 2 adult bikes diagonally plus 1-2 kids bikes (I put a balance bike and a little BMX in on our recent holiday).

I bought an Espace recently (7 seats) and it won't fit an adult bike in the back even if you use only the first back row; if you fold the first back row seats down you can do it, but its messy. I am going to change it for a Grand Espace but I doubt it will change matters.

I love customising vehicles for usage so would be happy to discuss this more, I'll start reading back through the thread....

Fantastic, is that your business then?

The GTC I am having delivered tomorrow is probably a bit more passenger orientated than what you are used to working with, but has a 2200mm load length with the rear seats down, and one of the second row folded flat - height is also in excess of 1m.

My plan though, to summarise for you, is to remove the rear 2 seats and store them in the garage (Keep them for resale at some point) and run it with a huge boot and 5 seats.
Then when we want to travel with bikes, either drop the 60 or 40 part of the second row, depending on how many bikes we are cayying, and go from there.

My next challenge (Which I started another thread on and which has had some fantastic suggestions) is for how to put fully assembled bikes in the vehicle but also critially keep them secure.
I have thought that if I can keep one end of the bikes anchored, then the other end I should be able to take care of with tie downs\bungee cords.
To that end I have invested in a couple of triple bike stands from Aldi, so will figure out this weekend if they are viable, and if not return them.
My other hope is that when I remove the 2 rear seats, I might some how be able to utilise the mounting points to secure a rack to the floor either permanently or semi permanently, as this would then give me the solid anchor point.
Ideally I would prefer this more towards the front seats, but that would mean mounting it on the back of the second row of seats, and I'm not sure how good a fixing one would be able to get, where as into the floor is bound to be solid.

Another option mentioned was from the likes of Fiamma who make campervan 'garage' storage systems for bikes, the idea there is you bolt it to the floor of your garage, and it has arms that come out to clamp the respective top tubes, much like a tow bar rack would do.
They are quite pricey though, and as I will be working with a lower floor at the rear, may well not really be that practical.
I also have the option of using a saris system I already have, but have nevr used, which gives me two mounts for the front forks - I would just need to remove the front wheels, but if I can find a viable way to load bikes fully assembled, that is my strong preference.

I did idily wonder if there was some way I could thread a bar through somehow up high, and put this through the bars (if we were transporting drop bar bikes) but I need to see the interior first to see if that is even an option, and I suspect not tbh.

Be very interested to hear what you make of it all though, as it sounds like you have a wealth of experience in that area.

Have you seen the very latest Berlingo XL?
I suspect you may well be getting a bit of business with regards to them soon!

pinno

Oh no, this has descended into long essays...
I'm bored.

JeemyW

@pinno - hurray! Long essays are my speciality. Plus when you are changing seats and interior orientation, you might find you have a child secure by your "guesstimate". Best to be sure and check everything when lives are involved.

@DanielB - I've got a lot of thoughts prepared for you. In particular we manufacture roll-cages, wishbone arms and soft-top conversion kits for vehicles like Lotus Elan/Esprit, Mitsi GTO, Nissan Skyline etc. We do these in short run. We do windsurfing conversion. So I've got a million thoughts, and a huge interest, in adapting the work we do to provide solutions for sportsmen.

Longevity be damned; I am happy to keep discussing.

I'm working through this thread from the start and pulling in my thoughts to a post which I'll make in the next week or so, so as not to duplicate or bore those with short attention spans.

In the interim if you have concerns as to safety/viability of installs to any vehicle, please do PM me.

pinno

No impact is lost in simplicity. Just look at me,

DB has made his choice now, so he'll have to just get on with it.
My only surprise was the fact that he didn't pick a yellow coloured vehicle... or green.

I'm interested in the parts that you 'manufacture' but I think that's for another thread. Have you got a link to your website?

me-109

Daniel B wrote:

Gents, assuming you both are, I think between you, you may have hit the jackpot for me here.

Daniel B wrote:

Again, thankyou both - went way over my original intended budget, and swapped over from petrol to diesel, and as wanted the euro 6, so £30 road tax version, had to stump up for the more modern 1.5. So after a 2 hour drive to Huntingdon at the weekend, a very close relative of this will be delivered to me on Wednesday

Happy to help but apologies for busting the budget and still ending up with diesel.

Not sure about the bike stand solution but you never know. I'd probably just look at tie-downs and using seat mounting points or load hooks, depending on what's available.

durhamwasp

I'm currently looking for similar, and my research has narrowed down to either a Citroen Dispatch or Peugeot Expert. Peugeot Traveller might also join the list when 2nd hand prices come down!

animal72

Daniel B wrote:

My next challenge (Which I started another thread on and which has had some fantastic suggestions) is for how to put fully assembled bikes in the vehicle but also critially keep them secure.

I use two Thule racks (that clamp the front forks) bolted to two shortened roof bars. These are strapped to the floor - you can use the seat clamps once folded - then the bikes lock straight in.

sniper68

I recently hired a (very blingy) VW T6 SWB 5-seater for a family holiday to see if I could live with one daily.
I borrowed my mates home-made "securing system" he uses in his Vito.Basically it's a couple of these(or similar).....



.....bolted to a piece of 4x4 timber cut to the width of the van.Front wheel off and attached by a QR.Solid as a rock.
Well impressed with the T6 btw.Two bikes,luggage and all camping gear and wasn't even 1/3 full 8)
Could I live with one daily.....yep.....ordering one after Christmas for the 19-plate registration.

ovi

this works for me

pinno

VW Transporter chucked in the hat...

daniel_b

durhamwasp wrote:

I'm currently looking for similar, and my research has narrowed down to either a Citroen Dispatch or Peugeot Expert. Peugeot Traveller might also join the list when 2nd hand prices come down!

I have the car versions of these, mostly the Citroen as I prefer the styling, on my future vehicles list.
Although from reading reviews, IF it matters to you, it would seem like the Tourneo gives the most car like driving experience, and also has the best ncap rating by a comparative country mile.

I am interested to see what he Berlingo XL turns out like, and how it compares with the Ford.

In reality if it's reliable, I'm likely to hang onto it for 10-15 years, so will hopefully not be in the market for anything else anytime soon!

I've bought a few bits for it so far, boot liner for when I have taken the rear two seats out, black bumper protector, as it scratches up easily and has just been repainted.
Also about to order some interior mats as frustratingly it comes with none, and also, and really more critically, it does not have a spare wheel OR tyre foam, so need to get a spare wheel and tyre sorted out asap.
Why they let people cancel these off now to save literally pennies, annoys the hell out of me.
If I want to buy a spare wheel, and all the parts to fit it under the vehicle, that's in the region of £400 alone.

Have booked it in for a full interior and exterior valet with a local company, including shampooing the interior - after that bells and whistles clean I'll look after the cleaning myself, it was more my gf who wanted it done.

Over the winter at some point, I will look to remove the rear seats, and see what options I have to secure the bikes within.

Animal72 wrote:

I use two Thule racks (that clamp the front forks) bolted to two shortened roof bars. These are strapped to the floor - you can use the seat clamps once folded - then the bikes lock straight in.

I have some roof rails from thee Volvo which I suspect will be too small for the Ford, so may be able to somehow strap these down in the rear of the van - if so, I also have two thule roof thingies, similar to these, that came with the Volvo:


So I could potentially utilise them as well if need be.

Really hoping the bolting area where the rear seats are will give me some scope for a really solid fixing, which will shape how I transport the bikes. I will report back to bore you with updates and pictures along the way.

JeemyW

pinno wrote:

I'm interested in the parts that you 'manufacture' but I think that's for another thread. Have you got a link to your website?

I don't know why you put 'manufacture' in quotes. Its no bother to me. I am http://specialistvehiclesolutions.com. No offence, and its easy to take it on the internet....if you are being difficult about the word 'manufacture' I can talk to you until the cows come home about the best way to get the things that *we* want made, made. If your interest is genuine, and you have something you want to make, I have been doing so for almost 30 years. Anything from full-size karate dummies that flash and let your kids practice their fights, to fully-automated home light/alarm/why smart systems. My main skill these days is simply providing whatever clients want.

When I say I manufacture things: I CAD design them, then I send them out to the right people for the job. I don't sit at home and whittle aluminium race hubs....

This would be foolish. I do make small parts (brake adaptor brackets, suspension cup reducers) on my own lathe but I have a 120mm limit so its mainly custom items for vintage vehicles.

So in finality @pinno, if you have any doubt about the stuff I make, I've been doing it for almost 30 years. If you wanted (I know little about bikes) to fit an 11-speed hub to a fixed-wheel rim, I could manufacture your "thing". If you had 50 mates who wanted it done in titanium, I could do that. I am not pretending, I am genuinely interested in solving problems on cars, bikes, watersports equipment, generators, etc. My main experience is on the digital side; generators, CAD design.

I find it hard to understand if you are being disparaging or encouraging. Perhaps that proves I am a genuine engineer! Anyway:

Some examples of things I make, control and have sold 50-100 of:

Lotus Elan Stainless Steel Wishbones

Lotus Elan Custom Rear Hub

My line of brake calipers for big/vintage/performance vehicles

Also, as I build vans, I have to be able to find suitable donor vehicles. I work with a company who sells me their ex-lease vehicles. If you need Vitos, Transporters or other vans, do give me a ping. Just don't order black!

@DanielB - sorry, none of us are perfect. I literally spent 4-5 hours going through this entire thread, noting down everything, because even if it would not help you, its all good for me. Then my iMac blew up - I just put an SSD in it and have the thermal issue which seems common, but I'd appreciate help if anybody knows more about it.

We are starting to hire out Fiat Doblos alongside our VW Campervans, and I suspect lower-valued, well-specced vehicles will continue to bear fruit.

I love talking about this stuff, and I apologise if I am too long-winded.

tangled_metal

Sounds like you have a varied business there. Van conversions too.

I'm considering replacing the family car with a van. One vehicle to do it all. Is that as much of a compromise as one bike to do it all? Mind you in my going off road unlike my road bike which I use as a mtb at times.

We're looking for something that doesn't quite exist in our opinion. A van that's small enough to use as a car but could be filled with bikes, camping kit and a cooking unit. Not too bothered about beds. Just a shelter we can sit in out of the weather after a ride, walk, etc. Perhaps cook tea before heading home after a full, fun packed day out. Big enough for a tall guy with a small family of one kid and partner. Not too big to be used instead of a car or to stop parking in height restricted carparks. Cheap enough to buy but good to drive. Driveable and usable from day one so ideally two rows of seats (ideally foldable not removable for extra storage space). Something we could drive then convert as and when we have money spare. A reliable, long term project.

As you can see I've yet to see anything suitable, it's all compromise. Partner likes bongo but age of then worries me. Japanese imports I like the look of but I don't trust mileage and whilst servicing / parts not an issue it's a worry not being EU spec.

So if you or anyone has an idea of van to suit I'd appreciate it. If not it's an estate /suv this time and postpone the van 3-5 years.

pinno

JeemyW wrote:

pinno wrote:

I'm interested in the parts that you 'manufacture' but I think that's for another thread. Have you got a link to your website?

I don't know why you put 'manufacture' in quotes. Its no bother to me. I am http://specialistvehiclesolutions.com. No offence, and its easy to take it on the internet....if you are being difficult about the word 'manufacture' I can talk to you until the cows come home about the best way to get the things that *we* want made, made. If your interest is genuine, and you have something you want to make, I have been doing so for almost 30 years. Anything from full-size karate dummies that flash and let your kids practice their fights, to fully-automated home light/alarm/why smart systems. My main skill these days is simply providing whatever clients want.

When I say I manufacture things: I CAD design them, then I send them out to the right people for the job. I don't sit at home and whittle aluminium race hubs....

This would be foolish. I do make small parts (brake adaptor brackets, suspension cup reducers) on my own lathe but I have a 120mm limit so its mainly custom items for vintage vehicles.

So in finality @pinno, if you have any doubt about the stuff I make, I've been doing it for almost 30 years. If you wanted (I know little about bikes) to fit an 11-speed hub to a fixed-wheel rim, I could manufacture your "thing". If you had 50 mates who wanted it done in titanium, I could do that. I am not pretending, I am genuinely interested in solving problems on cars, bikes, watersports equipment, generators, etc. My main experience is on the digital side; generators, CAD design.

I find it hard to understand if you are being disparaging or encouraging. Perhaps that proves I am a genuine engineer! Anyway:

Some examples of things I make, control and have sold 50-100 of:

Lotus Elan Stainless Steel Wishbones

Lotus Elan Custom Rear Hub

My line of brake calipers for big/vintage/performance vehicles

Also, as I build vans, I have to be able to find suitable donor vehicles. I work with a company who sells me their ex-lease vehicles. If you need Vitos, Transporters or other vans, do give me a ping. Just don't order black!

@DanielB - sorry, none of us are perfect. I literally spent 4-5 hours going through this entire thread, noting down everything, because even if it would not help you, its all good for me. Then my iMac blew up - I just put an SSD in it and have the thermal issue which seems common, but I'd appreciate help if anybody knows more about it.

We are starting to hire out Fiat Doblos alongside our VW Campervans, and I suspect lower-valued, well-specced vehicles will continue to bear fruit.

I love talking about this stuff, and I apologise if I am too long-winded.

Woah - easy. I was/am genuinely intrigued. No need to be defensive.

I converted a Mercedes bus into a mobile home for a guy last year. It was great fun.







That was on a shoestring budget. Front two sofas convert into a double bed.

Anyway, if you refurbish Porsche brake callipers, PM me with prices. I need the front one's done.

daniel_b

@Pinno - that van conversion above looks cool!

JeemyW wrote:

@DanielB - sorry, none of us are perfect. I literally spent 4-5 hours going through this entire thread, noting down everything, because even if it would not help you, its all good for me. Then my iMac blew up - I just put an SSD in it and have the thermal issue which seems common, but I'd appreciate help if anybody knows more about it.

We are starting to hire out Fiat Doblos alongside our VW Campervans, and I suspect lower-valued, well-specced vehicles will continue to bear fruit.

I love talking about this stuff, and I apologise if I am too long-winded.

Sorry to hear that Jeemy, I hate it when that happens :evil:
I'm allergic to apple products (aside from Granny Smiths) myself, so am unable to offer any advice.

I love loads of detail me, so please continue.

Interesting on the Doblo, I did consider one, even a new one, never managed to test drive one though.
A mate hired a WAV petrol version (with 7 miles on the clock) from Gowrings, to take his Gran out for the day, and said it was really underpowered, and thirsty on long journeys - plus he said it was very basic, and van like - am sure there are other engine types and trim levels out there though.

Have you tried a Grand Tourneo Connect at all?
Think some people carry out camper conversions, or even pop up rooves on them too.

Tangled Metal wrote:

Sounds like you have a varied business there. Van conversions too.

I'm considering replacing the family car with a van. One vehicle to do it all. Is that as much of a compromise as one bike to do it all? Mind you in my going off road unlike my road bike which I use as a mtb at times.

We're looking for something that doesn't quite exist in our opinion. A van that's small enough to use as a car but could be filled with bikes, camping kit and a cooking unit. Not too bothered about beds. Just a shelter we can sit in out of the weather after a ride, walk, etc. Perhaps cook tea before heading home after a full, fun packed day out. Big enough for a tall guy with a small family of one kid and partner. Not too big to be used instead of a car or to stop parking in height restricted carparks. Cheap enough to buy but good to drive. Driveable and usable from day one so ideally two rows of seats (ideally foldable not removable for extra storage space). Something we could drive then convert as and when we have money spare. A reliable, long term project.

As you can see I've yet to see anything suitable, it's all compromise. Partner likes bongo but age of then worries me. Japanese imports I like the look of but I don't trust mileage and whilst servicing / parts not an issue it's a worry not being EU spec.

So if you or anyone has an idea of van to suit I'd appreciate it. If not it's an estate /suv this time and postpone the van 3-5 years.

TM, what is your budget?

I am loving the Grand Tourneo Connect, it's a great vehicle, easy to drive, comfortable, frugal, and a lovely manual gearbox.
It's less than half the power of the Volvo T5 (But doesn't feel it with the torquey diesel), and much as it amazes and troubles me to admit it, is probably more enjoyable to drive. Turning circle is excellent too, and an improvement.
The cheapest I have seen them for is around 10K, that would be for a reasonably high mileage 1.6 diesel, however if you went for your plan of delaying by 3-5 years, potentially by then the 1.5 diesel (Started production in 2015) with £30 a year tax, will likely drop down to 8k or so, and the 1.6 even less so.

If you get the chance, have a test drive of one, they are very enjoyable to drive, eminently practical, and smaller than the likes of a XC90, Q7 etc etc

My original budget was going to be 5-8K at a maximum, but seeing the practicality of the GTC, and actually driving it made me virtually double that upper limit, it's that good a vehicle.

tangled_metal

Read a good review of them in autocar I think. Verdict was that the real issue with them is to keep having to tell people you meet that it's a very good drive. That you're not just just driving a van and having to put up with sluggish van performance. They said it's more car like than van like on the road but the interiors are not good. They used the phrase about focus level of handling and feel but with fiesta levels of trim (ie not good). It's based on the C type global platform I believe, which actually makes it the same platform as a Ford focus, kuga, c-max, etc. Ford rationalised from 16 platforms to just 5 global platforms about 2014.

We're looking at Ford Tourneo transit or custom. A smaller Transit van size but huge than the GTC, rigg) which is a bit too small for us. Plus they're around for less i think.

Budget up to £8-9k.

daniel_b

Tangled Metal wrote:

Read a good review of them in autocar I think. Verdict was that the real issue with them is to keep having to tell people you meet that it's a very good drive. That you're not just just driving a van and having to put up with sluggish van performance. They said it's more car like than van like on the road but the interiors are not good. They used the phrase about focus level of handling and feel but with fiesta levels of trim (ie not good). It's based on the C type global platform I believe, which actually makes it the same platform as a Ford focus, kuga, c-max, etc. Ford rationalised from 16 platforms to just 5 global platforms about 2014.

We're looking at Ford Tourneo transit or custom. A smaller Transit van size but huge than the GTC, rigg) which is a bit too small for us. Plus they're around for less i think.

Budget up to £8-9k.

I think I saw areview along the same lines, but I've always taken most of the reviews with a pinch of salt, as a lot of the time they seem to need to fill column inches.
I can see how the quality of the dash or interior is valid in an Aston Martin, but in a practical vehicle to move people and stuff, who genuinely cares?
It amazes me how many reviews go on about tapping the dashboard and saying how cheap and plasticky it may feel.
I'll be honest, when I get in the car\van, I put my seatbelt on, turn the key and drive off - I'm not one for pawing and stroking the dashboard, so what does it matter :?

it is definitely much more car like, and also enjoyable to drive, and the interior to my mind is perfectly good.
Leather steering wheel, gear knob, comfy and practically well trimmed seats - drivers seat is 8 way adjustable, reach and rake adjustment on the steering wheel itself, electric mirrors, and auto wipers and lights, that I was sure I would hate but have actually grown to appreciate :shock:

The Tourneo Transit will surely have an identical quality interior to the Grand Tourneo Connect?

It's only a smidge longer and wider, and 14cm or so on height I think - another I favoured the GTC, there's still enough height for a bike, but in surrounding towns we have the occasional multi storey car park that is a smidge under 2m, and that's where the Transit, and the Trafic\Vivaro I was looking at before, become a bit of a struggle.

The GTC measures 1966W X 4818L X 1840H
Tourneo Custom is 2272W X 4973L X 1979H

Just had a quick look at Tourneo Customs on AT, and the cheapest I can see with a whisker under 100k on the clock is £11700.
I guess the stock van will go for less.

Admittedly this one caught my eye, and comparatively seems good vfm, only 15k on the clock, and on for 16500.


Even that though seems to have only slidey rear windows instead of proper ones like the GTC does.
Also the manual 1.5 diesel GTC has road tax of £30 a year, where as the cheapest Transit Tourneo or Custom tax I can see is £140, and the one I posted above is £230 - not the be all and end all, but if like me you are planning to hang onto a vehicle for 10 years or so, that's another £2000 of costs, not insubstantial.

JeemyW

Daniel, I think that is hugely too much to pay for a van, whether at 15k or 100k. My feeling is that the engines on these are (and should be) built to do 250k-plus. If they are going to exhibit problems, 15k vs 50k vs 100k is immaterial.

I've bought a few vehicles and paid for low mileage, then discovered there were low-mileage issues that the buyer passed on. If they don't maintain them, 15k is pretty immaterial even if it was done in only a couple of years.

A very wise man once told me that whatever you buy you should budget the same again to get it to the condition *you* want it to be in.

Now of course if you are lucky and buy well, you will need to spend very little.

But equally you can buy well, from an honest person, and then immediately find several thousand pounds' worth of problems.

For example here is a 91k van at £11,900 + VAT - I don't know if you can reclaim VAT. That's ~20k per year, and if its driving those miles, any problems will have had to be dealt with.

So I don't think 15k over 3-4 years is any better than 60k over the same period, or more....

I also don't think you should factor running costs into your decision, because they will be much the same whatever you end up with.

I think the best value around is Merc Vito. Also, I bought a T5 Caravelle, fully kitted up 9-seater for £12,500 last year, it was immaculate and only 90k. I'd keep looking m7.

@pinno, apologies if I was defensive. Life is hard sometimes. Venting on the internet is easy. Apologies and hugs.

daniel_b

Hi Jeemy, my last post was just an example.

I sold my Volvo yesterday for the asking price, and we had our Grand Tourneo Connect delivered two weeks ago.
Been busy buying the little extras I wanted for it, having it valeted and a rear bumper protector fitted on Saturday, and then I can look to remove the rear two seats, and after that can begin to spend serious time figuring out the best way for me to transport bicycles, which sadly is the kind of thing I enjoy :oops:



T'will be similar to the above, except the rear two seats (flattened in line with the middle row)
won't be there.
I will also have either 1 or 2 seats up in the middle row.

I would have originally agreed with you on the 15k van comment, and time will tell with ours of course, but 600 miles in, all is currently going well.
Ours was owned by motability, but was not an adapted vehicle, but seems to have led a pretty sheltered life on the IOW. From looking at many Wav Trafic vans, it would seem they are pretty consistent at shifting vehicles on once they get to a certain age, via bca auction, and I expect ours went this way too.

We only spent the extra due to the most modern efficient, and lowest tax diesel, having only been around since 2015, coupled with the older 1.6 being barely any cheaper, if at all, to buy, coupled with this one coming up at a very good price, and then being further discounted. End of Sep, and they had sales targets to hit.

tangled_metal

Interiors don't matter as much as the other aspects related to drive and economy but they do result in annoyance when they go wrong. Our seat doesn't really have a his interior trim. Parts snapped off in ways a much cheaper Astra before it never did. Seat mechanisms became dodgy (seat height adjustment goes up but only drops straight to the lowest setting. Annoying but there's a finger trap right by the lever that you push down to drop it (you push down on it and your fingers naturally reach the trap just before it drops.

So IMHO interior durability is not inconsequential. Some cheap interiors can fail in ways that are purely annoying but others can be a hazard. It's like everything else you have to look at the whole package and hope you have made the right decision. You tend to make do of it's not what you thought it was. If you don't the alternative is to cut your losses and replace earlier than planned.

I've heard you can buy vw transporter panel vans at reasonable prices compared to other makes but I've never seen one myself. Not as good in the van searching stakes or more likely northerners don't have the spare cash to give them away cheaply (we cut off at a certain travelling distance from our home in North Lancashire). I've yet to see a transporter going cheap up this way.

daniel_b

Tangled Metal wrote:

Interiors don't matter as much as the other aspects related to drive and economy but they do result in annoyance when they go wrong. Our seat doesn't really have a his interior trim. Parts snapped off in ways a much cheaper Astra before it never did. Seat mechanisms became dodgy (seat height adjustment goes up but only drops straight to the lowest setting. Annoying but there's a finger trap right by the lever that you push down to drop it (you push down on it and your fingers naturally reach the trap just before it drops.

So IMHO interior durability is not inconsequential. Some cheap interiors can fail in ways that are purely annoying but others can be a hazard. It's like everything else you have to look at the whole package and hope you have made the right decision. You tend to make do of it's not what you thought it was. If you don't the alternative is to cut your losses and replace earlier than planned.

I've heard you can buy vw transporter panel vans at reasonable prices compared to other makes but I've never seen one myself. Not as good in the van searching stakes or more likely northerners don't have the spare cash to give them away cheaply (we cut off at a certain travelling distance from our home in North Lancashire). I've yet to see a transporter going cheap up this way.

Yep I agree with that, but from what I understood from the reviews I have seen, they seemed to suggest that the GTC interiors were below car quality, due to the fact they were 'van' quality - whatever that is!
So I took it from that, they were alluding the the fact that the GTC interior is of a same level build and quality wise as that you would find in a transit. Time will tell with our vehicle of course.

At this moment in time I think the GTC has a unique place in the market, but the Berlingo XL that came out last month offers a similar sized package and flexibility, but probably not with the residuals or potentially interior quality of the Ford.
I discounted VW transporters pretty quickly, firstly they are not actually that large (In comparison to a Trafic or a Transit), and secondly they seem to be hideously over priced - one example was a 2014 panel van, with over 100,000 miles on the clock, up for 20K :shock:
And I dare say someone will buy it, but too little vfm for me.

tangled_metal

The review I read described it against the various Ford car models. That is more fiesta quality interiors than focus quality. I guess they were making the point that since it is a van based vehicle it has a more basic level of interior which is closer to the low cost car end of their range.

sniper68

Daniel B wrote:

I can see how the quality of the dash or interior is valid in an Aston Martin, but in a practical vehicle to move people and stuff, who genuinely cares?
It amazes me how many reviews go on about tapping the dashboard and saying how cheap and plasticky it may feel.
I'll be honest, when I get in the car\van, I put my seatbelt on, turn the key and drive off - I'm not one for pawing and stroking the dashboard, so what does it matter :?

I genuinely care what the interior looks and feels like.I usually keep a vehicle 4-5 years so the interior must look nice.Cheaper looking "plasticy" dashes/interiors usually result in rattles and vibrations after a few months.(My wife once had a 12 month old Citroen C3 and everything inside rattled.i couldn't sit in it as a passenger let alone drive it!)I have to drive it,sit in it and look at it for 60,000+ miles so it has to tick those boxes!
I had narrowed my search to three.VW Transporter,Merc Vito and Ford Transit Custom/M-Sport.My mate has a Vito and there's just something about the styling I don't like.As I said earlier we hired a T6 and loved it.Then a couple of weeks ago my Brother bought a Tranny M-Sport.So I went to have a look and I preferred everything about it to the T6.IMO it drives a bit better and the interior feels and looks better...and it's cheaper...a lot cheaper.It also has a bulkhead behind the rear seats.Then something hit me that had been bothering me about it.
The Windscreen wipers.
The both go opposite ways and it's just wrong!That is a deal breaker for me.It might sound ridiculous but i just could not own a vehicle with wipers that are wrong It would annoy the cr@p out of me and i would pretty much hate the vehicle after a few weeks!I'm also not sure if they do an Auto version but I won't be bothering to find out now anyway.
So little things are important...to me at least

tangled_metal

I've read elsewhere that the merc Vito has a bad rep for rusting. Bodywork is not good for rust prevention neither. Not one for keeping a long time perhaps.

sniper68

Tangled Metal wrote:

I've read elsewhere that the merc Vito has a bad rep for rusting. Bodywork is not good for rust prevention neither. Not one for keeping a long time perhaps.

So has the Tranny.My Brother had a 61-plate Transit(Sport) and that was showing sign of rust despite him taking steps to protect it.He's taken the entire interior carpeting/soundproofing etc out of the M-Sport and sprayed it with a Waxoyl type stuff then replaced it all as he reckons they rust from the inside out.It's similar to what they do with Campervans as they and soundproof/carpeted Panel van are susceptible to a build up of moisture between the panels and finishing.

JeemyW

Tangled Metal wrote:

I've read elsewhere that the merc Vito has a bad rep for rusting. Bodywork is not good for rust prevention neither. Not one for keeping a long time perhaps.

To my knowledge pre-2002 they did not galvanise the bodies. My parts chaser is a 1999 and it had terrible rust in all the usual places. Its bright orange....

Especially as I used it as a windsurfing van and live right next to the sea, there is a lot of salt in the air.

I ended up taking all the plastic trim off it, sanding it down and used POR15 which is marine grade rustproofing paint. Some guys hate it, I think its brilliant. Horses for courses. So I drove it for a bit all patchy, which reminded me of when we were kids and had a matt orange Datsun Sunny or some such, my mum sanded it and painted white rust-proofing all over it so we drove about with an old orange junker covered in white spots; hugely embarrassing as an equally spotty teenager.

I ended up getting the Vito resprayed and the paintwork lasted maybe 2 years but I didn't clean it very well. I might have got further had I taken more care. Its not terrible now but would need another full spray to get it looking pristine.

I see a lot of Transits about as work vans and they all seem to be incredibly rusty. AFAIK post-2002 Vito W638 and all W639 are fine for rust issues now.

My Vito was the older style W638 (I think the newer W639 is technically a Viano?) and with the bodykit I put on it, almost identical to the T4 VW; I really liked the styling. Designed by Westfalia who did both VW and Merc at the time, so very similar.

The only other relevant issue on the Vitos is leaking injectors. I had one go on the way back from Tiree and lucked out finding a garage way up north that replaced it for £90. A couple years later another one started and this time I got told it would be cheaper to buy a new engine, which I did; sold the old engine for £500 with leaking injector declared, got a 50k engine for £900 and install was about £400. But that's definitely a known and common problem.

While I don't love the W639, when I was trying to buy a van for a client who insisted on a T5.1, I found so many good Vitos with electric doors, all mod cons, AMG bits etc for £11k or less, and the VWs were all closer to £20k. He wanted black and of course all black ones were taxis so had huge mileage and he insisted on sub-100k.

It ended up being cheaper buying a silver T5.0 with 80k on it, bodykitting it to T5.1 plus a few extra bits, and respraying inside and out, than it would have been buying an 80k black T5.1.

The Transporters are hugely overpriced and a couple of years ago I might have said that the DSG system and build was way ahead of anything else, but in fact given their terrible crimes against pollution, and the fact that most of my clients are in London and driving a diesel vehicle there is going to become very costly, the fact that you'll get 2-300k easily out of the engine is less material now.

If you want a cool-looking boy racer van (which we do a lot of) the Transporter has so many aftermarket options compared to any other van, that people just pay the extra. We do a fully-kitted 9-seater with custom interior, inbuilt Tv/gaming/headphones/big wheels/bodykit etc for about £38-40k; yet I've seen nearly-new, very average-kitted VWs at £40k!! Its crazy.

But cheap ones are out there.

Really there are tons of good options from Renault, Fiat, Opel, Vauxhall, Nissan, Citroen, Ford, all with much lower costs for replacement parts; but I wish they would get better styling.

And I don't feel that these brands are *so much cheaper* than VW/Merc to be a no-brainer.

I've got an Espace just now which I picked up to get us away on holiday when the Land Rover packed in a week before we left. Its a 2003 model and was not motability, but was a guy's wheelchair vehicle, he'd owned it from new. It only had 45k miles on it.

While it looked pristine, he hadn't from what I can surmise (his son sold it for him) serviced it AT ALL, and it was due the cambelt change in 2010; he just felt that "low mileage" meant that wouldn't matter.

I think its a great car but I paid £950 for it - had no choice, in a rush - then £600 to get it ready for holiday and safe for kids, and as he hasn't done the belt change I'll be another £400 in parts plus either £500 in labour or do it myself over several weeks to do the belt, dephaser and properly service it, sort out all the sensors etc. Which means getting another car on the road so I can take the Espace off. At present we are just trying to avoid 3rd and 4th gear which have a nasty rattle.

Its great for getting the kids in, seats 7 although I only have 5 seats in it just now. Its got tons of space for the kids, tables for them to eat on while you travel, its lovely. But even though the boot is gigantic you can't get an adult bike in the back.

I'm going to finish up the mechanical work, tart it up with some TVs and entertainment stuff, then sell it and maybe go for a Grand Espace; apparently they have the extra few inches so you can seat 5 and get bikes in the back. But then I've heard about reliability issues on the engines in the Grand.

I like the idea of the panoramic roofs, but apparently they cause more bother than they are worth.

tangled_metal

Googling GTC and read boot space 300 odd up to 2000 odd litres with the seats down. Didn't realise the lower figure was with 7 seats not 5. I was thinking my car had 500+ with seats up so it's a tiny boot space.

Load length is 1.2m with rear seats down but 2m+ with the middle seats down too. With 3 of us that's one middle row down and even my recumbent fits in. However the seats folded aren't very good for actual loading I think from photographs I've seen. Not having a garage at the moment means nowhere to store the rear row of seats for a future onwards sale. We'd have to leave them in, not as good then IMHO.

Is there a 5 seat GTC version that's the same size but without the rear seats that we don't need? Or is that the normal Tourneo Connect?

On the ford website there's two models of TC with starting prices £19k or £21k. From what I saw the newer version doesn't have a brand version to select. It's the newer TC but I can't see if it's GTC sized or just TC sized.

They look nice cars. Seen a 9k one for sale with 51k on clock and 2015 in Bradford (private sale would always rule it out for me}. Although shipping around there is a £10k one at 31k miles and 2014 year I've seen.