Does anyone use a decent sized van in place of a car? (Bike transport)

daniel_b

Tangled Metal wrote:

I looked at a Mitsubishi van and since I live walking distance from a really good Mitsubishi dealership I asked them about Japanese imports. They have no issues with dealing with Mitsubishi van imports. No issues with parts or anything. Their van isn't sold over here but the 4x4 it's based on is which means the mechanicals are all UK distributed parts. It's the odd part that different (more bodywork related I think) but importing from Japan isn't that bad these days. If parts are needed from Japan they get here, in the van and you're driving out within a week.

It's not the same for all vans and all ages of Japanese van imports though.

If you've got the money Hyundai I 800 is a nice van. Toyota proace verso is a very nice van in the current model well kitted out for use as an executive bus. If their panel van version of this is at nice then if I had the money I'd look at it.

That's good to know, and well worth consideration - guess a 280BHP twin turbo is a bit more niche :-)

defever wrote:

Interesting thread, lots of factors to take in Daniel!

Our experience with a van: We bought a VW T4 to convert into a camper last year. VW definitely has "scene tax", T4s with 200,000miles still got for £3,000 plus. That's ridiculous money for mileage and age.

But there are benefits of going with VW. VW is generally reliable (German or Japanese cars are stereotypically renounced for their reliable and robust construction, but equally open to debate!). Customisability (lots of after-market parts / conversions pre-set up for Transporters), VAG (VW Audi Group) parts readily available, many specialist garages throughtout the country, ABUNDANCE of information on repairs, modification, troubleshooting on the internet (you could literally be an expert of these vans with just reading on online forums). Being a mechanic enthusiast, the ability to source parts easily and the abundance of free information was one of the selling point for us to go with a VW.

We still think VW Transporters are expensive though, but it sort of balances with their versatility. If we ever need a van after our T4, then we'd easily consider much cheaper alternative vans but will look at either German (Mercedes Vito) or Japanese (Toyota Hi-ace, though it's less common in the UK), then Vivaro/Traffic/Primastar.

Also, I don't know if you have thought about tax and insurance for "panel vans". Vans are different world compared to cars (I found this out after we bought T4) and you are paying "commercial" rate if your van is "panel" van i.e. bog standard builders van without any seats at the back. The insurance scheme becomes different as insurers assume it's used "commercially" and its associated risks (potential theft of the content, damage, etc.). Also motorway tolls / ferry prices are commercial rate, just because it may look like "white van man" vehicle.

Having said that, unless you "convert" a panel van into say a "camper", or if you are looking for "people carrier" version of a van, then I think they are mostly classified as "car" rather than commercial vehicle. So the above is exempt. Tax, insurance, toll fees are similar if not same as any car.

Just another consideration for you!

I'm all for reliability, current Volvo and previous Nissan have been pretty good, the Nissan incredibly so.

Good call on insurance etc, had not even crossed my mind overly, but the minibus option should hopefully circumvent most of those as you alluded to.

Tangled Metal wrote:

How about this?
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201708017910535?colour=Yellow&advertising-location=at_vans&postcode=la59dt&body-type=Minibus&page=1

It's yellow!
But seems somewhat overpriced for a high miles 13 year old van - imho!

bendertherobot wrote:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201705125365953?sort=price-desc&make=MERCEDES-BENZ&postcode=la59dt&radius=1500&advertising-location=at_cars&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=New&model=V CLASS&page=1

haha! I rather liked the look of that ex Wiggins one that was up for sale a while back, and there was an Ex Team Sky one as well

tangled_metal

Autotrader only had two yellow minibuses listed. This was possibly the better of the two. I had heard of your colour preference. Your other preference for buying then returning probably won't work with vans though.

I wonder why yellow vans and minibuses aren't more common?

PhilipPirrip

I don't know if it's been mentioned but if you're thinking of buying a vehicle with 8+ seats get some insurance quotes first as the insurance can shoot up. If you're not intending to fill them then you could be paying a premium for carrying around empty seats

When I had my Ford Freda imported from Japan 7 years ago as an 8 seater I was looking at at around £700 when my previous car had been around £200. Once I'd converted the Freda to a camper and had it reclassified as a motorcaravan the insurance dropped to less than £200. The same drop in insurance should apply to the conversion and reclassification of a panel van.

tangled_metal

You can possibly take out one row of seats and it might reduce the insurance.

For the insurance reduction you need to convert it and get it reclassified as a campervan / motorhome. There are minimum requirements that increasingly get checked up on. IIRC you have to supply photographs showing the minimum requirements to get reclassified.

Once reclassified you get cheaper insurance but it's still best to go through the specialist insurers.

If you're committed to converting to a campervan and are competent you can go straight into a conversion insurance I believe. This is one which is cheaper but you have a finite time to complete the conversion and reclassification process. If you're not ready by then things cost more. It's a purely conversion license but I believe you can still drive it around whilst under this insurance.

Not of interest to op because he's looking at minibus for a van type of use. I'm not sure but I think this would still be more expensive on the insurance, plus VED I think too but don't quote me on that.

A long Wheelbase van allows for a garage and practical campervan conversion. Just thought I'd mention. Motorheads do that if into bike / car racing, especially bike racing (motor variety).

daniel_b

Cheers chaps - just ran a qoute through confused.com, for that 8 seater minibus, and clocked in at £441 - my current insurance for the two of us is around £240 I think.
If I reran it and chopped it down to 5 seats, the cheapest came out at £313, massive difference.

I suspect 5 is how I would want to run it for 99% of the time, and if I needed more, I would either have to add them and pay the difference, or more likely not do it!
It would be nice to have the option, but not at £11 per month, and it might be needed once a year - cheaper to hire a complete minibus!
Those are qoutes are with no NCB, as it's not Van NCB :?
I have maximum on a car.

May also need to use it for work, and by that I just mean visits to other offices, just like I would use car - doesn't seem to be so easy to add that on.

Anyone on here who owns a Van care to share what specialist providers they have used successfully?

bendertherobot

Well, mine is 8 seats. I don't specifically say that it is, I give them the reg number, that model has 8 seats.

It's as cheap as my old 7 seat Sharan (car), i.e about £450. But that's mostly cos it's a 40k (ish) 'car'

daniel_b

Imposter wrote:

Another option - SsangYong Tourismo. I don't have one, but it's absolutely cavernous with the rear bench taken out, and pretty well spec'd too. Prices are pretty good too. Some people might need to get over the latent brand image, but if you can, they are worth a look.

Just looked up, and f&*k me they are ugly, BUT - if you look at the Rodius (It's predecessor), which I was aware of, that is possibly THE ugliest car ever made.

Brace yourself.




Despite, and possibly because of quite how revolting it looks, i kind of like it though - I am weird like that.

However, sadly as we do not have 3 seats across the front, I feel to get 4 seats, would still need two rows of seats, as the ones behind the front seats are also seperate seats - you can of course take the rear bench out, but I don't think the depth is enough for what I am after :-(
Otherwise it seems like an ENORMOUS amount of vehicle for the money, all be it uninvolving to drive, not that economical, and clearly was dropped repeatedly as a child. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at the design session where it was signed off.......

mbrundrett

Insurance wise I use http://www.brentacre.co.uk, I have a VW T4 that I have had for 5 years and is basically for getting the family over the continent with bikes. It is a 6 seater 3+3.

ovi

I use Gladiator insurance and transferred my car NCB no problem from Tesco. If I had the spare money I would be looking at the Mercedes V class.

I'm in and out of most makes of "builders vans" and there's not a bad one amongst them and are quite comfortable although the latest models are getting more cramped in the cabs.

The GM/Renault 1.6 twin turbo is economical but not seen any with over 100k but are nice.

Not sure if I would buy a Transit with more than 130k and the Mk7 getting long in the tooth now but the latest Custom is nice.

A Mercedes Vito W639 (post 2008 for Galvanised body) or Toyota Hiace( hi-lux engine, see Top Gear LOL)) are good for 200k to 300k if serviced well and even seen a Toyota with 500k.

The mk1 Toyota Pro ace uses the 1.6PSA engine the same as the Citroen and Peugeot which needs to have good service history and the same engine is used in the new mk2 version. If its had the Turbo changed make sure the oil lines have been changed also otherwise the turbo could be a ticking time bomb.

Never been in a T5 or T6 so can't comment on them but heard the reason the are expensive 2nd hand is Builders tend not to buy them new so less to choose from but had a chat with a Sky installer and he wasn't complimentary about them and preferred the Vivaro that was used before and said they were more reliable too.

Bongos are supposed to be shite!

Hyundai I800/ILoad van seems canny too.

ovi

The Nissan Elgrand is a Practical motor

bendertherobot

ovi wrote:

I'm in and out of most makes of "builders vans" and there's not a bad one amongst them and are quite comfortable although the latest models are getting more cramped in the cabs.

I think it's important to restate this. These things are built for going on for ever and ever and being generally abused. And now they're comfy to. I could never go back to small. Sat in the car park today next to a Sharan, looked like a Mini. Mind, the Mini Countryman is only a bit of a ruler less than a VW Touran now!

daniel_b

ovi wrote:

The Nissan Elgrand is a Practical motor

Despite the marmite looks of that, I like the concept, but alas due to it's interior dimensions, and seating arrangments, it does not seem it would be viable for 5 people AND fully assembled bikes unfortunately.

The swb minibus thing seems to be standing out as THE most flexible and practical solution at the moment.

I'm really struggling to see, aside from the extra width, any real downsides.

Thankyou Mbrundett for that insurance recommendation.

ovi wrote:

I use Gladiator insurance and transferred my car NCB no problem from Tesco. If I had the spare money I would be looking at the Mercedes V class.

I'm in and out of most makes of "builders vans" and there's not a bad one amongst them and are quite comfortable although the latest models are getting more cramped in the cabs.

The GM/Renault 1.6 twin turbo is economical but not seen any with over 100k but are nice.

Not sure if I would buy a Transit with more than 130k and the Mk7 getting long in the tooth now but the latest Custom is nice.

A Mercedes Vito W639 (post 2008 for Galvanised body) or Toyota Hiace( hi-lux engine, see Top Gear LOL)) are good for 200k to 300k if serviced well and even seen a Toyota with 500k.

The mk1 Toyota Pro ace uses the 1.6PSA engine the same as the Citroen and Peugeot which needs to have good service history and the same engine is used in the new mk2 version. If its had the Turbo changed make sure the oil lines have been changed also otherwise the turbo could be a ticking time bomb.

Never been in a T5 or T6 so can't comment on them but heard the reason the are expensive 2nd hand is Builders tend not to buy them new so less to choose from but had a chat with a Sky installer and he wasn't complimentary about them and preferred the Vivaro that was used before and said they were more reliable too.

Bongos are supposed to be shite!

Hyundai I800/ILoad van seems canny too.

Thanks Ovi - that's good to hear Gladiator will transfer NCB, that would probably make it no more expensive or even cheaper, so could be key to the decision.

Not a Mercedes fan personally, and think post 2008 will be out of my budget anyway.

i800 is on the list to check out :-)

Just put this together for a sizing comparison:

Volvo V70 Estate: 1803mm X 4709mm (Car we currently have)
Skoda Superb Estate: 1864mm X 4856mm (Car I was likely to replace with at some point)
Renault Trafic SWB: 1904mm X 4782mm (Hot favourite in the van\minibus stakes)
Renault Trafic LWB: 1904mm X 5182mm (Probably too long)
Audi Q7: 1968 X 5052mm (Just for reference and scale, not a car you could pay me to own)

PhilipPirrip

ovi wrote:

Bongos are supposed to be shite!

Whoa. Calm down there deary. Don't knock it 'til you try it.

No more can go wrong with a Bongo, though mine's a Freda, than any other vehicle but I wouldn't recommend them to Daniel as his current vehicle's 16 years old and Bongo's went out of production in the early 2000s so there's nothing to be gained in age and finding good examples to import is now extremely difficult.

There are known issues with Bongos as with any vehicle but as long as you're aware and take preventative measures they run without problems. The front drop links went on mine on the way back from Norway this year but that's the only repair I've had to make, beyond regular servicing, and it's 17 years old this year. The rear wheel arches will be replaced next year - one of the common issues due to increased condensation from being lived in and non galvanised steel - but that'll be the only major piece of work I'll have had done in the eight years I'll have had it.

Whatever vehicle anyone has, if it takes them to places new and old for great adventures that's all that matters.

daniel_b

Hmmm, Volvo now needs £420 worth of throttle bodies and fitting :-(

Have been working out running costs versus my LPG T5 Volvo, and cost per mile, purely based on fuel is pretty much identical. It's a penny more per mile, but the service for the LPG (Every 7000 miles), and cost of getting there and back cancels that out to within £6.
Road licence is £45 less.
Insurance might well be a tad more, but it's looking mighty encouraging so far.

Bordersroadie

Daniel
That white Trafic SWB minibus you linked to is basically what I have in a silver LWB and as you say that will give you massive versatility for all occasions!

I'd think long and hard about SWB vs LWB and get what's best for you and family.

The LWB extra 400mm length is a massive benefit to me especially as I usually have just a double seat rear row.

However I live in the sticks so it has very few drawbacks. When I lived in a town pre kids a SWB made more sense.

Another thing about the minibus type; twin sliding doors is a big benefit over one slider. For example always being able to load and unload kids on the safe side. All minibuses seem to have twin sliders.

daniel_b

Bordersroadie wrote:

Daniel
That white Trafic SWB minibus you linked to is basically what I have in a silver LWB and as you say that will give you massive versatility for all occasions!

I'd think long and hard about SWB vs LWB and get what's best for you and family.

The LWB extra 400mm length is a massive benefit to me especially as I usually have just a double seat rear row.

However I live in the sticks so it has very few drawbacks. When I lived in a town pre kids a SWB made more sense.

Another thing about the minibus type; twin sliding doors is a big benefit over one slider. For example always being able to load and unload kids on the safe side. All minibuses seem to have twin sliders.

Hi BR,

thanks for your reply - and good to know that is along the same lines as what you yourself find so useful.

Possibly this insane, but the one I linked to, seems to be THE only one that has those kind of seats in the minibus world.
Every other one I have seen has bench seats of some kind, so not as much flexibility, and clearly with an SWB that would be required, over a LWB.
So I stumbled across ones designed to accept wheelchairs........

Either this sort with the lowered floor, or ones with a normal flat floor, and a big old lift that you could obviously get shot of:

The biggest advantage of them, is that they have those single seats at the sides, between 2 & 4, and you can remove them as you see fit.
They also tend (in the main) to have the big single pane tailgate, which I quite like the look off - possible more to go wrong I suppose, with the struts and what have you.
They also seem to be lower mileage, and I would assume have been driven more gently perhaps.
Also agreed on the sliding doors, I can see the benefit of having those both sides.

Personally I would like an LWB version, but we do live in a town, and have to park in some pretty snug car parks, and I fear the extra length would cause an issue.

daniel_b

Woop, have discussed with my gf, and she is reasonably onboard, or certainly open to the potential.

Next step is to see if we can hire one for a day or a weekend, to see how we get on with it (Driving, parking and using as a regular vehicle), and then go from there.

@BR - does your van have twin doors at the back, or a tailgate? Any preference either way?

Bordersroadie

Tailgate. For me the best option definitely.

Frank Wilson

Buy an old coach and take some seats out.

daniel_b

Thanks BR, will keep my eyes peeled.

Frank Wilson wrote:

Buy an old coach and take some seats out.

Well that is in effect what I am proposing to do no?
Can't go full on coach of course, as pretty sure by design most of them exceed 5m in length

Chuckling how things change. 3 years ago I was considering buying a Maserati, now I'm looking at a minibus, and getting just as excited :shock:

daniel_b

Did just get quite excited about the i800, but alas the seating layout and permutations seem rather more limited.

Bloody long, nearly as long as a LWB Renault van, but only two seats at the front, and seemingly two solid benches at the back - pretty sure you can remove one altogether, but not sure on the logistics of the split\fold options - although - IF they fold down properly flat, conceivably you could still have a situation where you had two seats on the side (ie one up from each row of 3), and then the rest of the load area free. Not sure how the height goes though.
May have to view one to see - christ they are ugly though, but I don't really care anymore.


The clear downsides are poor economy, comparatively, and higher Tax\worse emissions - £305.
Upsides, is that they seem to come with all the toys, aircon, heated seats, electric this that and the other etc etc

bendertherobot

Tidy dashboard and driving environment though. More car like than van. Though it is all a bit 80's Aiwa stereo.

Tidy car overall, one of the school mums had one and it served her well. It's an interesting one as Hyundai must be working on a replacement and given how their range currently looks, that should be quite something, if or when it arrives

daniel_b

bendertherobot wrote:

Tidy dashboard and driving environment though. More car like than van. Though it is all a bit 80's Aiwa stereo.

Tidy car overall, one of the school mums had one and it served her well. It's an interesting one as Hyundai must be working on a replacement and given how their range currently looks, that should
be quite something, if or when it arrives

Agreed, pig ugly, but looks to be a decent enough environment - hold their value more than I would have thought.

Shame the seats look to be immovable, as otherwise would probably have been the front runner.
Plenty out there for sub 10K.

Have found a 2 year old thread on a Hyundai forum asking that exact questions, so have just replied to see if anyone has any pics, or notes on how difficult it turned out to be.

I've also joined and posted on a Renault forum.

bendertherobot

Some of them do appear to come out but, like you, I couldn't find a definitive answer on there about that. Be surprised if they don't.

daniel_b

bendertherobot wrote:

Some of them do appear to come out but, like you, I couldn't find a definitive answer on there about that. Be surprised if they don't.

Agreed, there are some threads saying they have wielded a spanner and removed them, but I suppose I also want to know how difficult it is, ie do you need to jack it up and get under the vehicle, and also how easy they are to refit, as that would be required at the point of resale, and also there may be times when multiple seats would simply be advantageous, but if it's a total ballache and 2 hours work each time, clearly that makes it less appealing.
I will update if I pick up any intel on it ;-).

mercia_man

Dan ... I spotted your post on the Hyundai forum and I've just nipped outside to measure the interior length of my i800 camper from the back of driver's seat to the middle of the tailgate. It's approx 8ft 7in.

On looks, I agree that the black ones look ugly, particularly as the rear windows have a black privacy tint. The Hyundai dealer told me it reminded him of an undertaker's van when I took a black one out for a test drive. However, the Mercedes-style silver (like I have) or the metallic titanium colours improve things considerably to my eyes. The i800 interior is admittedly a bit 80s Aiwa but it's comfortable and well equipped and a superb long distance vehicle.

The value for money swung me to the Hyundai, plus the fact that the Wellhouse conversion had just won the motorhome of the year award. For £37,000 I got a better equipped higher spec camper than a £50,000 VW California - but not the brand image, which didn't matter to me. Wellhouse convert various makes of vans, including VW, Ford and Mercedes, and told me their customers find the I800 is the most car-like to drive of the lot. The automatics and the older manuals are thirsty but the newer 136ps Euro 5 manual is on a par with similar vehicles at 30.7 urban, 44.1 extra urban, 37.7 combined.

I can see the lack of flexibility with seats is an issue for you. Wellhouse remove the seats as part of the camper conversion. Maybe it's worth giving them a ring to find out how easy it is. A helpful chap called Paul is their workshop boss. Here's a link to their Hyundai campers:

http://www.wellhouseleisure.com/hyundai/

daniel_b

Mercia Man wrote:

Dan ... I spotted your post on the Hyundai forum and I've just nipped outside to measure the interior length of my i800 camper from the back of driver's seat to the middle of the tailgate. It's approx 8ft 7in.

On looks, I agree that the black ones look ugly, particularly as the rear windows have a black privacy tint. The Hyundai dealer told me it reminded him of an undertaker's van when I took a black one out for a test drive. However, the Mercedes-style silver (like I have) or the metallic titanium colours improve things considerably to my eyes. The i800 interior is admittedly a bit 80s Aiwa but it's comfortable and well equipped and a superb long distance vehicle.

The value for money swung me to the Hyundai, plus the fact that the Wellhouse conversion had just won the motorhome of the year award. For £37,000 I got a better equipped higher spec camper than a £50,000 VW California - but not the brand image, which didn't matter to me. Wellhouse convert various makes of vans, including VW, Ford and Mercedes, and told me their customers find the I800 is the most car-like to drive of the lot. The automatics and the older manuals are thirsty but the newer 136ps Euro 5 manual is on a par with similar vehicles at 30.7 urban, 44.1 extra urban, 37.7 combined.

I can see the lack of flexibility with seats is an issue for you. Wellhouse remove the seats as part of the camper conversion. Maybe it's worth giving them a ring to find out how easy it is. A helpful chap called Paul is their workshop boss. Here's a link to their Hyundai campers:

http://www.wellhouseleisure.com/hyundai/

You sir, are a gentleman!

Thankyou kindly - google tells me that is 261cm, so that would be fine IF I could remove one of the 3 seats in the middle along with the rears, but I won't be able to get a measurement for the rear up to the one seat pushed all the way forward unless I can go and view one for sale I guess.

Thankyou for the link to wellhouse, you would imagine if anyone knows the seat possibilities it would be them!

The black one as a hurse - that had not occurred to me, but now you mention it............!
I can well see how the other colours are somewhat more forgiving

mercia_man

Good luck with your search. It's a shame the Hyundai doesn't have more flexible seating arrangements other than simple 60:40 split. Some Wellhouse camper conversions, like the Ford and the new Toyota Pro Ace, have the rear seat/bed on rails so it can slide forward to create a much larger boot area. I reckon a multi-seater van of this kind with removable seats on rails would find a ready market among cyclists etc.

daniel_b

Mercia Man wrote:

Good luck with your search. It's a shame the Hyundai doesn't have more flexible seating arrangements other than simple 60:40 split. Some Wellhouse camper conversions, like the Ford and the new Toyota Pro Ace, have the rear seat/bed on rails so it can slide forward to create a much larger boot area. I reckon a multi-seater van of this kind with removable seats on rails would find a ready market among cyclists etc.

Thankyou MM - it is indeed, seems like an opportunity missed, and as it has such a sizable price advantage over it's nearest competitor, it is difficult to see that an increase to cover that flexibility would have hurt sales, might well have been quite the opposite - could have become the 'goto' cyclists vehicle.

And yes I think you are right on that front, hopefully one will appear at some point!

I have tracked down what the 'fast track' system is, and it appears to be labelled as an 'Unwin tracking rails' - presumably could be used in any vehicle.

EDIT: Sadly the white Trafic minibus I linked too with the aforesaidmentioned fast track, is already sold :-(

tangled_metal

I've read a bit about campervan conversions. You can get those rails that allow easy movement and locking of the seats and indeed storage or stove units too. I've seen them in a few campervan conversions and they look good option. One had a plush carpet with the rails stealthily installed in the floor.

Plus you can buy replacement seats too if the oem ones don't suit. Ones that fold too I think. You can also buy fittings to go under your front seats that allow them to turn. Not sure if that's available for all model vans but the Renault / Vauxhall ones, vw and transits can take them. Not necessary for your use but nice to chill after an active day before heading off