Harvey Weinstein

veronese68

PBlakeney wrote:

Exactly. The situation has to reported outside of the industry, ergo the police. The only people that the police will listen to are the victims. It is not perfect, it may not even be right, but there is no other alternative. Is there?

If the victims don't say anything, nothing will happen. I don't see this as victim blaming.

tangled_metal

You need the industry to spot the dangers and prevent the abuse happening. This is separate from criminal proceedings which require a victim to make an allegation. If you have the systems and prevent the abuse it's a preferable situation.

As much as it leaves a bad taste to let the abuser of, trying to force victims to make a statement is prolonging the abuse and is ultimately worse. The wellbeing of the abused trumps all other considerations. Unless you've been raped I doubt you can really get into the headspace of such a victim and understand just how much it takes to report abuse by a powerful person that has systems in place to protect their position.

As far as saying is just your career so better give it up to stop others going through what you did. That is not guaranteed. I wonder how many reports of abuse were made about Saville. I understand the BBC had at least one accusation in the past that resulted in managers believing but not acting on it.

If you can't sort a system out that will act on complaints then it's a very big ask to get a victim to complain.

rolf_f

Veronese68 wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Exactly. The situation has to reported outside of the industry, ergo the police. The only people that the police will listen to are the victims. It is not perfect, it may not even be right, but there is no other alternative. Is there?

If the victims don't say anything, nothing will happen. I don't see this as victim blaming.

Ultimately not much point worrying about what should or shouldn't have happened in the case of Weinstein. That's out now and I daresay he will get what is coming to him. What would be more of a concern is if another name crops up in five years time, having done exactly the same stuff for 20plus years and nobody stood up and spoke about it now. Obviously it's easy to expect other people to stand up when you don't have to but surely now is a time that people can count on being taken seriously. Presumably with the obvious possible exception of Trump though his time will surely come.

veronese68

Tangled Metal wrote:

You need the industry to spot the dangers and prevent the abuse happening.

But if nobody says anything how is the industry supposed to know who is doing what? Unfortunately people do need to speak out, I'm sure it is traumatic to relive the experience and there is a lot of pressure to say nothing in circumstances such as these. The accuser possibly has more to lose than the accused as there are no guarantees they will be believed. But people still need to speak out.
I'm sure others are at it, the phrase 'casting couch' didn't sprout up for no reason, but as Rolf says people really must speak out now. At least one famous actress has said there is a lot of that going on around Hollywood. But to say that and go no further is protecting other abusers.

tangled_metal

It's a systems issue. You don't need victims to spot risks and act to minimize them.

For example if the industry wanted to take things seriously you could end the partying side of the business. By this I mean don't do business in a social environment unless it is totally public. Just an example. Dealings between different hierarchy could be kept in business hours.

I don't know but it's the culture of the industry that's more than a little too blame. It's like conference season 365 days a year. Partying is the way business is done it seems.

Whilst I do agree reporting abuse should be encouraged I think without getting the culture right there really is very little point. Get the systems / culture of the industry right then you should reduce the frequency of abuse and get a climate where reporting abuse can happen / does happen.

Under the climate up to the newspaper breaking the story was not conducive to encouraging these reports and not likely to result in action other than against the victim. You can't expect victims to come out to make these much needed reports in that situation. You can hope it happens, even wish it would but not expect it and blame those who don't fit all attacks that come later.

Matthewfalle

Fat idiot Corden the "comedian" has now apologised for "jokes" he made at the weekend about Weinstein.

The problems I have with this, apart from are he obvious that rape and sexual abuse aren't really that funny, are:

1. He wrote his own script, so must have been thinking about these things and found them funny himself
2 He had a chance to retract the "jokes" but didn't so he must have thought that they were funny
3. He has now apologised for the "jokes" which meant that he hasn't even got the backbone to stand by his material.

What a bell end.

Matthewfalle

Please note that in the above post I may or may not have spelt Corden's name wrong. I actually don't care - he is still a bell end.

lostboysaint

Matthewfalle wrote:

Fat idiot Corden the "comedian" has now apologised for "jokes" he made at the weekend about Weinstein.

The problems I have with this, apart from are he obvious that rape and sexual abuse aren't really that funny, are:

1. He wrote his own script, so must have been thinking about these things and found them funny himself
2 He had a chance to retract the "jokes" but didn't so he must have thought that they were funny
3. He has now apologised for the "jokes" which meant that he hasn't even got the backbone to stand by his material.

What a bell end.

Seth Macfarlane will always be the main man having said what he did at the Oscars! Never apologised, in fact he reiterated the "joke" in another interview. He was ignored because he's too "out there".

rick_chasey

Matthewfalle wrote:

Fat idiot Corden the "comedian" has now apologised for "jokes" he made at the weekend about Weinstein.

The problems I have with this, apart from are he obvious that rape and sexual abuse aren't really that funny, are:

1. He wrote his own script, so must have been thinking about these things and found them funny himself
2 He had a chance to retract the "jokes" but didn't so he must have thought that they were funny
3. He has now apologised for the "jokes" which meant that he hasn't even got the backbone to stand by his material.

What a bell end.

I'd have thought they were the kind of jokes that you love.

DeVlaeminck

Matthewfalle wrote:

Fat idiot Corden the "comedian" has now apologised for "jokes" he made at the weekend about Weinstein.

The problems I have with this, apart from are he obvious that rape and sexual abuse aren't really that funny, are:

1. He wrote his own script, so must have been thinking about these things and found them funny himself
2 He had a chance to retract the "jokes" but didn't so he must have thought that they were funny
3. He has now apologised for the "jokes" which meant that he hasn't even got the backbone to stand by his material.

What a bell end.

Bit harsh I think, he's made an error of judgement and apologised. Ultimately he was laughing at the accused not the victims but I'm sure he now realises it came across as trivialising the issue. Better to admit the error than stand by the material regardless.

Matthewfalle

Rick Chasey wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Fat idiot Corden the "comedian" has now apologised for "jokes" he made at the weekend about Weinstein.

The problems I have with this, apart from are he obvious that rape and sexual abuse aren't really that funny, are:

1. He wrote his own script, so must have been thinking about these things and found them funny himself
2 He had a chance to retract the "jokes" but didn't so he must have thought that they were funny
3. He has now apologised for the "jokes" which meant that he hasn't even got the backbone to stand by his material.

What a bell end.

I'd have thought they were the kind of jokes that you love.

Errrr no.

Fan of his are you? Bit of edgy South London gated flat comedy?

Matthewfalle

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Fat idiot Corden the "comedian" has now apologised for "jokes" he made at the weekend about Weinstein.

The problems I have with this, apart from are he obvious that rape and sexual abuse aren't really that funny, are:

1. He wrote his own script, so must have been thinking about these things and found them funny himself
2 He had a chance to retract the "jokes" but didn't so he must have thought that they were funny
3. He has now apologised for the "jokes" which meant that he hasn't even got the backbone to stand by his material.

What a bell end.

Bit harsh I think, he's made an error of judgement and apologised. Ultimately he was laughing at the accused not the victims but I'm sure he now realises it came across as trivialising the issue. Better to admit the error than stand by the material regardless.

Two errors of judgement in two weeks ...... building up now.

DeVlaeminck

What was the other? I don't follow his career that closely.

rick_chasey

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Fat idiot Corden the "comedian" has now apologised for "jokes" he made at the weekend about Weinstein.

The problems I have with this, apart from are he obvious that rape and sexual abuse aren't really that funny, are:

1. He wrote his own script, so must have been thinking about these things and found them funny himself
2 He had a chance to retract the "jokes" but didn't so he must have thought that they were funny
3. He has now apologised for the "jokes" which meant that he hasn't even got the backbone to stand by his material.

What a bell end.

I'd have thought they were the kind of jokes that you love.

Errrr no.

Fan of his are you? Bit of edgy South London gated flat comedy?

Figured it was standard Bottom Bracket fare.

Goes alongside threads discussing women exclusively on how good looking they are and whether you'd have sex with them or not, doesn't it?

Sounds more like you don't like James Corden and you take any excuse to put him down.

mfin

The most important thing about jokes is that they are generally funny and a bit clever. Whether they are offensive to some people doesn't matter much. The thing Corden made a mistake with is that the jokes weren't funny, yet he get's hauled up for them being offensive. What's all that about, sort it out America.

kingstongraham

DeVlaeminck wrote:

What was the other? I don't follow his career that closely.

Kissing Sean Spicer at the emmys, I guess.

shortfall

mfin wrote:

The most important thing about jokes is that they are generally funny and a bit clever. Whether they are offensive to some people doesn't matter much. The thing Corden made a mistake with is that the jokes weren't funny, then yet he get's hauled up for them being offensive. What's all that about, sort it out America.

I'm with you on this.

mamba80

Tangled Metal wrote:

It's a systems issue. You don't need victims to spot risks and act to minimize them.

For example if the industry wanted to take things seriously you could end the partying side of the business. By this I mean don't do business in a social environment unless it is totally public. Just an example. Dealings between different hierarchy could be kept in business hours.

I don't know but it's the culture of the industry that's more than a little too blame. It's like conference season 365 days a year. Partying is the way business is done it seems.

Whilst I do agree reporting abuse should be encouraged I think without getting the culture right there really is very little point. Get the systems / culture of the industry right then you should reduce the frequency of abuse and get a climate where reporting abuse can happen / does happen.

Under the climate up to the newspaper breaking the story was not conducive to encouraging these reports and not likely to result in action other than against the victim. You can't expect victims to come out to make these much needed reports in that situation. You can hope it happens, even wish it would but not expect it and blame those who don't fit all attacks that come later.

the Industry is run by men, why would they take any notice of women who complain they ve had sex with a producer etc? or as you say, change the culture? unless they have too.

Look at the FA and women or BC and women, now swimming, you could go back to systematic abuse by the Church, no one listens to a "nobody" who complains and no one will change their organisation unless forced.

this is my beef with this, the stars should have stepped up long ago.

tangled_metal

I know Mambo. It's similar to newspaper conduct. All the voluntary press bodies, charters and ombudsman you can create amount to nothing if the newspapers don't have real pressure to change.

Basically got need a pull factor but more important you need the burning platform. Unless it's more dangerous to stay as it is they'll not change voluntarily.

Until they change I think it's unfair to expect victims to come forward. It is absolutely a great act to come forward in the climate / system that operates in Hollywood and other sectors of the entertainment industry. Very brave IMHO. Let's hope those ppl and any future victim coming forward very believed first, supported then get justice. Don't hold your breath once the furore dies down.

mfin

mamba80 wrote:

the Industry is run by men, why would they take any notice of women who complain they ve had sex with a producer etc? or as you say, change the culture? unless they have too.

Why would they take any notice of women who complain? Not with you at all there on that logic, it seems to be running on the assumption all men are a bit iffy and will protect awful behaviour by other men or at least turn a blind eye to it.

I think most men are not like that at all, pretty much all men who have daughters certainly would take notice, and most men would anyway.

Truth is it is more to do with people coming forward, and when they do so formally, the organisation concerned having to do something about it. At least we live in a world where people can go public about issues a lot easier now, and the media momentum gathers enough that things at least get attention. Not that it's helped much with President Twerp and his alleged assaults yet though.

mamba80 wrote:

this is my beef with this, the stars should have stepped up long ago.

As above, people get listened to more now than they would 30 years ago or even 10 years ago.

tangled_metal

Wasn't there an interview with a female, former PA who said she was aware of his reputation but never fair threatened. She said things like thinking about your exit not being blocked and other such things. Kind of not putting yourself in a position to be abused. Made me wonder how she knew to do that, who told her and even whether she knew if some victims.

lostboysaint

mfin wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

the Industry is run by men, why would they take any notice of women who complain they ve had sex with a producer etc? or as you say, change the culture? unless they have too.

Why would they take any notice of women who complain? Not with you at all there on that logic, it seems to be running on the assumption all men are a bit iffy and will protect awful behaviour by other men or at least turn a blind eye to it.

I think most men are not like that at all, pretty much all men who have daughters certainly would take notice, and most men would anyway.

Truth is it is more to do with people coming forward, and when they do so formally, the organisation concerned having to do something about it. At least we live in a world where people can go public about issues a lot easier now, and the media momentum gathers enough that things at least get attention. Not that it's helped much with President Twerp and his alleged assaults yet though.

mamba80 wrote:

this is my beef with this, the stars should have stepped up long ago.

As above, people get listened to more now than they would 30 years ago or even 10 years ago.

You've answered your own questions time and time again. The industry clearly was run by men who were "a bit iffy". Whether that's because they feared their own career path being blocked/destroyed, were making too much money out of the silence or "getting a piece of the action" themselves they didn't speak up. They clearly didn't think of their own daughters or give a toss for anyone else's.

Again, you've answered your own question. Trump is a self confessed, serial sexual predator and yet HE WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT despite this being raised BEFORE THE ELECTION. How much more obvious would you like it to be that there's cover ups everywhere and that (predominantly) men* don't give a shiny shite about it?

*have a look at the demographic that voted for him

There is a serious problem with the justice system on both sides of the Atlantic when serial sex offenders remain unreported and unpunished.

rjsterry

mfin wrote:

I think most men are not like that at all, pretty much all men who have daughters certainly would take notice, and most men would anyway.

Weinstein has, I think, three daughters. I think you are underestimating people's ability to compartmentalise their lives.

tangled_metal

Weinstein was a predator. Probably an outlier in that respect. Doesn't mean most men would step up and confront such a man but also doesn't mean that most men are the same.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

mfin wrote:

I think most men are not like that at all, pretty much all men who have daughters certainly would take notice, and most men would anyway.

Weinstein has, I think, three daughters. I think you are underestimating people's ability to compartmentalise their lives.

Dr Headgear (who frequents the Pro Race forum here), wrote a twitter thread on the 'men who have daughters' trope, in relation to this.

https://twitter.com/DrHeadgear/status/9 ... 4429973505

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

mfin wrote:

I think most men are not like that at all, pretty much all men who have daughters certainly would take notice, and most men would anyway.

Weinstein has, I think, three daughters. I think you are underestimating people's ability to compartmentalise their lives.

Dr Headgear (who frequents the Pro Race forum here), wrote a twitter thread on the 'men who have daughters' trope, in relation to this.

https://twitter.com/DrHeadgear/status/9 ... 4429973505

I think he's pretty spot on there.

DeVlaeminck

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

mfin wrote:

I think most men are not like that at all, pretty much all men who have daughters certainly would take notice, and most men would anyway.

Weinstein has, I think, three daughters. I think you are underestimating people's ability to compartmentalise their lives.

Dr Headgear (who frequents the Pro Race forum here), wrote a twitter thread on the 'men who have daughters' trope, in relation to this.

https://twitter.com/DrHeadgear/status/9 ... 4429973505

I think he's pretty spot on there.

For some maybe, can't say I recognise myself in his description of how fathers act.

I don't actually think having daughters is that relevant to standing up to sexual harassment. You are either the kind of person who finds a reason to look the other way or you aren't.

rick_chasey

DeVlaeminck wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

mfin wrote:

I think most men are not like that at all, pretty much all men who have daughters certainly would take notice, and most men would anyway.

Weinstein has, I think, three daughters. I think you are underestimating people's ability to compartmentalise their lives.

Dr Headgear (who frequents the Pro Race forum here), wrote a twitter thread on the 'men who have daughters' trope, in relation to this.

https://twitter.com/DrHeadgear/status/9 ... 4429973505

I think he's pretty spot on there.

For some maybe, can't say I recognise myself in his description of how fathers act.

I don't actually think having daughters is that relevant to standing up to sexual harassment. You are either the kind of person who finds a reason to look the other way or you aren't.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economi ... explains-4

How daughters change the behaviour of influential men

They make them more aware of the obstacles women face

lostboysaint

Rick Chasey wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

mfin wrote:

I think most men are not like that at all, pretty much all men who have daughters certainly would take notice, and most men would anyway.

Weinstein has, I think, three daughters. I think you are underestimating people's ability to compartmentalise their lives.

Dr Headgear (who frequents the Pro Race forum here), wrote a twitter thread on the 'men who have daughters' trope, in relation to this.

https://twitter.com/DrHeadgear/status/9 ... 4429973505

I think he's pretty spot on there.

For some maybe, can't say I recognise myself in his description of how fathers act.

I don't actually think having daughters is that relevant to standing up to sexual harassment. You are either the kind of person who finds a reason to look the other way or you aren't.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economi ... explains-4

How daughters change the behaviour of influential men

They make them more aware of the obstacles women face

That could be amongst the biggest load of bollocks ever written. It's made even more amusing by the photo of a self-confessed* sexual predator braggart and his daughter alongside the headline.

*those comments were made when she was more than old enough, not forgetting his own rather inappropriate comments about how he'd be looking to shag her as well.

rick_chasey

Which bit, the studies it cites?