Harvey Weinstein

pblakeney

Rick Chasey wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Can understand a new actress enthralled with a powerful man and scared to report his behaviour but some of these women kept quiet long after they d become super stars.
contrast with Taylor Swift, who did nt delay and called out abuse, regardless of any possible affect on her career.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Amazed by how many are haranguing women about why they didn't speak out sooner, without realising they are answering their own question.

Putting their career before doing the right thing? Fact is that the men involved are unlikely to change things. Acts have to be officially reported before official action can be taken.

rick_chasey

So it’s their fault for not reporting it now is it?

pblakeney

Rick Chasey wrote:

So it’s their fault for not reporting it now is it?

Not what I am saying, but nothing will change without it being reported. How long have we known about the casting couch? Proof is required for prosecution and therefore change. Rape is rape.

rick_chasey

PBlakeney wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So it’s their fault for not reporting it now is it?

Not what I am saying, but .

Ha ok.

Sounds a lot like victim blaming to me.



And you wonder why they keep shtum.

rick_chasey

Everyone’s got an opinion on how to behave as a victim.

Why not just treat them as victims and be glad they spoke out at all?

tangled_metal

Taylor Swift has been a big star for a number of years. Didn't she call out the abuse after reaching that level of stardom? She's certainly not a new face to the music industry and wasn't even when she started events leading to her legal win earlier this year.

She's done a good thing but that is irrelevant. She was someone with the strength to confront her abuser. She was also in a strong position. Her abuser wasn't as powerful as Weinstein. Plus the very fact one abuse victim confronts their abuser doesn't mean everyone can. To argue that point is tantamount to calling those who kept quiet as weak or at fault in some way.

One last thing. Nobody should have to report abuse. Why? Because it shouldn't happen. Ideal world but any company needs to keep their own house. By this they have a duty of care to all employees and all involved in their business. The fact this was covered up, is covered up still is a huge failure.

In my company any abuse gets short shrift. There's been sacking over it. Respect is a key word in the company manual. Why can't the film industry do that? Don't they have management? Don't they have human resources to keep things clean?

pblakeney

Rick Chasey wrote:

Everyone’s got an opinion on how to behave as a victim.

Why not just treat them as victims and be glad they spoke out at all?

That is the point. I wish they had spoken sooner.
Think of the grief that could have been saved instead of careers.
It shouldn't happen. It does happen. It will continue to happen unless victims/colleagues/friends stand up.
Saying otherwise is either naive or fantasy. This is the film equivalent of the omertà.

rick_chasey

PBlakeney wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Everyone’s got an opinion on how to behave as a victim.

Why not just treat them as victims and be glad they spoke out at all?

That is the point. I wish they had spoken sooner.
Think of the grief that could have been saved instead of careers.
It shouldn't happen. It does happen. It will continue to happen unless victims/colleagues/friends stand up.
Saying otherwise is either naive or fantasy. This is the film equivalent of the omertà.

I think it’s bad enough being a victim, let alone being criticised for not putting your ass on the line and in public because you were a victim.

Ridiculous. This is why people don’t come out sooner or plan to come out at all.

pblakeney

Rick Chasey wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Everyone’s got an opinion on how to behave as a victim.

Why not just treat them as victims and be glad they spoke out at all?

That is the point. I wish they had spoken sooner.
Think of the grief that could have been saved instead of careers.
It shouldn't happen. It does happen. It will continue to happen unless victims/colleagues/friends stand up.
Saying otherwise is either naive or fantasy. This is the film equivalent of the omertà.

I think it’s bad enough being a victim, let alone being criticised for not putting your ass on the line and in public because you were a victim.

Ridiculous. This is why people don’t come out sooner or plan to come out at all.

I had written a whole response but the site crashed and I can't be bothered re-writing it cos you won't concede that the film industry has an omertà, everyone is to blame and someone has to stand up.
If someone doesn't put their ass on the line, the next person's ass is going to get it as well.

rick_chasey

Plenty of enablers that aren’t victims but they’re never in people’s minds for criticism.

Always the victim.

rjsterry

PBlakeney wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Everyone’s got an opinion on how to behave as a victim.

Why not just treat them as victims and be glad they spoke out at all?

That is the point. I wish they had spoken sooner.
Think of the grief that could have been saved instead of careers.
It shouldn't happen. It does happen. It will continue to happen unless victims/colleagues/friends stand up.
Saying otherwise is either naive or fantasy. This is the film equivalent of the omertà.

It's also naive to think that the first few people to speak out won't pay for that with their careers just as whistleblowers do in other industries. You seem to be under the impression that people haven't tried to speak out about Weinstein before. What's fairly clear from some of the accounts is that they tried to and it cost them.

john80

Tangled Metal wrote:

Taylor Swift has been a big star for a number of years. Didn't she call out the abuse after reaching that level of stardom? She's certainly not a new face to the music industry and wasn't even when she started events leading to her legal win earlier this year.

She's done a good thing but that is irrelevant. She was someone with the strength to confront her abuser. She was also in a strong position. Her abuser wasn't as powerful as Weinstein. Plus the very fact one abuse victim confronts their abuser doesn't mean everyone can. To argue that point is tantamount to calling those who kept quiet as weak or at fault in some way.

One last thing. Nobody should have to report abuse. Why? Because it shouldn't happen. Ideal world but any company needs to keep their own house. By this they have a duty of care to all employees and all involved in their business. The fact this was covered up, is covered up still is a huge failure.

In my company any abuse gets short shrift. There's been sacking over it. Respect is a key word in the company manual. Why can't the film industry do that? Don't they have management? Don't they have human resources to keep things clean?

Nah the management are all trying to get laid with the latest hottie looking for fame. All joking aside the movie industry is an example of an industry where the talent runs the show and is heavily invested in that continuing. The HR lady could have walked in on Weinstein raping someone and probably got sacked for reporting it such is the power imbalance within this sector. Companies deliberately try to avoid extreme power situations for this reason.

pblakeney

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Everyone’s got an opinion on how to behave as a victim.

Why not just treat them as victims and be glad they spoke out at all?

That is the point. I wish they had spoken sooner.
Think of the grief that could have been saved instead of careers.
It shouldn't happen. It does happen. It will continue to happen unless victims/colleagues/friends stand up.
Saying otherwise is either naive or fantasy. This is the film equivalent of the omertà.

It's also naive to think that the first few people to speak out won't pay for that with their careers just as whistleblowers do in other industries. You seem to be under the impression that people haven't tried to speak out about Weinstein before. What's fairly clear from some of the accounts is that they tried to and it cost them.

In that case, the people who covered up the original complaint should be prosecuted. I am not victim blaming. Someone has to put a stop to it and it won't be the perpetrators. With silence it simply continues to the next victim.
Of course they will initially pay for it with their careers. What is more important?
I have quit 2 jobs with no immediate prospect and went public as to why. And that was simply because of bad project management, far less something as serious as this.

tangled_metal

Without knowing the situation of victims how can you decide what is the best thing for them? So it's bad enough they're a victim of this but you believe that they should make things worse through potentially pointless whistleblowing? At what point do you think victims should start looking out for themselves?

I've never blown a whistle (well once kind of in a mild way and got a right fcuking over it) but I guess it takes a lot to do it. There's not really support out there for it now let alone back when it started in the 80s with Weinstein allegedly. Doing it on your own is likely very hard.

Do you really have the personal strength to stand up and report a sexual assault? It's really not the same as whistleblowing in a company you know. It's got so much more taboos about it. Media criticism! "What were you wearing?" type of questions. "Well you brought it on yourself!" mentality.

It's ridiculous in the extreme to blame the victim for not speaking out. The only thing to do is praise to the extreme those with the immense strength to be the first to speak out.

I am diametrically opposed to PBlakeney's view that his comments anger me. Sorry for the rant.

pblakeney

I have fully considered you opinion.
I now think that keeping quiet is absolutely the best way to eradicate this problem. :roll:

rjsterry

PBlakeney wrote:

I have fully considered you opinion.
I now think that keeping quiet is absolutely the best way to eradicate this problem. :roll:

You're missing my point, I think. People did speak out and were silenced or ignored. It was only when several victims of sufficient fame were brought together in the NewYorker article that something happened.

lostboysaint

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2017/10/15/courtney_love_warned_people_about_harvey_weinstein_in_2005.html

And got blacklisted as a result.

pblakeney

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

I have fully considered you opinion.
I now think that keeping quiet is absolutely the best way to eradicate this problem. :roll:

You're missing my point, I think. People did speak out and were silenced or ignored. It was only when several victims of sufficient fame were brought together in the NewYorker article that something happened.

And I did say that those who did the silencing, or ignoring should be prosecuted.
Accessories after the fact?

tangled_metal

PBlakeney wrote:

I have fully considered you opinion.
I now think that keeping quiet is absolutely the best way to eradicate this problem. :roll:

But you're looking to widely and not thinking about the victim. Why should the victim have to worry about this problem? Why should she suffer any more than she is already?

Your way doesn't solve the problem neither BTW. There's been laws against this sort of thing for years and ppl have come out to report it. Nothing changes apart from one more victim has to go through the court and media torture because society cannot stop or even reduce its chances of happening.

As unpalatable as this might sound, I believe we should focus more on how to create systems within industries that makes it hard or impossible for such behaviour to happen without early detection and prevention before it becomes a serious issue. Detect behaviour patterns before they become offending behaviour. Better to prevent the victim being created. More consideration of that than reporting and convicting post attack.

You want to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted at considerable pain and suffering to the victim. Shouldn't we make sure the door can't open? Stop the pain a victim has to endure?

pblakeney

It is unfortunate but the option is either careers being hurt, or future actresses, before things will change.
The people who will have to put the practices in place are those doing the crimes.
Public outcry might help but the cynic in me predicts 6 months of outcry, a couple of high profile heads to roll, some speeches at the Oscars, then silence and back to as was.

laurentian

. . . and meanwhile, the only person going to "therapy" for these events is Weinstein himself . . . what the hell is he suffering from that merits "therapy"?

john80

laurentian wrote:

. . . and meanwhile, the only person going to "therapy" for these events is Weinstein himself . . . what the hell is he suffering from that merits "therapy"?

He is a sex addict also known as misivo dickheado disease.

DeVlaeminck

Rick Chasey wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Everyone’s got an opinion on how to behave as a victim.

Why not just treat them as victims and be glad they spoke out at all?

That is the point. I wish they had spoken sooner.
Think of the grief that could have been saved instead of careers.
It shouldn't happen. It does happen. It will continue to happen unless victims/colleagues/friends stand up.
Saying otherwise is either naive or fantasy. This is the film equivalent of the omertà.

I think it’s bad enough being a victim, let alone being criticised for not putting your ass on the line and in public because you were a victim.

Ridiculous. This is why people don’t come out sooner or plan to come out at all.

But sometimes people do have to put their ass on the line. I can understand the difficulties in trying to blow the whistle especially when you are one of the victims but it sounds like as with Savile that this was an open secret and there must have been people financially secure and with their own power and reputation in the business that could and should have done more.

Any young actor raped by a powerful movie executive is extremely brave for trying to get that person outed and prosecuted and no blame attaches to them for however they choose to handle it but if you've got a couple of houses and a pension and you ignore young women being raped because you want another house and a bigger pension there is some culpability there.

As with Savile there were people who should have outed him earlier and are morally culpable for not doing so there will be plenty in this case who could and should have done more.

rick_chasey

Victim blamers make it harder to come out.

You're blaming the victims for prolonging the secret.

Ergo, you're making it harder for these people to come out.

tangled_metal

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

I have fully considered you opinion.
I now think that keeping quiet is absolutely the best way to eradicate this problem. :roll:

You're missing my point, I think. People did speak out and were silenced or ignored. It was only when several victims of sufficient fame were brought together in the NewYorker article that something happened.

And I did say that those who did the silencing, or ignoring should be prosecuted.
Accessories after the fact?

How can you prosecute the accessories when you can't even prosecute the guilty perpetrators? Not even if the victim comes forward. They might come forward, but the protection system behind these powerful elite predators probably stops it happening.

rjsterry

Tangled Metal wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

I have fully considered you opinion.
I now think that keeping quiet is absolutely the best way to eradicate this problem. :roll:

You're missing my point, I think. People did speak out and were silenced or ignored. It was only when several victims of sufficient fame were brought together in the NewYorker article that something happened.

And I did say that those who did the silencing, or ignoring should be prosecuted.
Accessories after the fact?

How can you prosecute the accessories when you can't even prosecute the guilty perpetrators? Not even if the victim comes forward. They might come forward, but the protection system behind these powerful elite predators probably stops it happening.

Not forgetting that Weinstein claims this was all consensual.

pblakeney

Tangled Metal wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

I have fully considered you opinion.
I now think that keeping quiet is absolutely the best way to eradicate this problem. :roll:

You're missing my point, I think. People did speak out and were silenced or ignored. It was only when several victims of sufficient fame were brought together in the NewYorker article that something happened.

And I did say that those who did the silencing, or ignoring should be prosecuted.
Accessories after the fact?

How can you prosecute the accessories when you can't even prosecute the guilty perpetrators? Not even if the victim comes forward. They might come forward, but the protection system behind these powerful elite predators probably stops it happening.

Solution?

DeVlaeminck

Rick Chasey wrote:

Victim blamers make it harder to come out.

You're blaming the victims for prolonging the secret.

Ergo, you're making it harder for these people to come out.

Who is? Speaking only in defence of myself I specifically said that no blame attaches to victims for however they respond so if you did mean me you'd need to back up why.

Ultimately though this stuff only stops when people no longer turn a blind eye. As we've seen in the various child abuse scandals from Savile, to the church to Muslim grooming gangs too many people just don't want to be the one that stands up first.

tangled_metal

Solution?

Not got a clue but at least I'm not providing a knee jerk reaction that's tantamount to victim blaming. The only truth with all these big scandals is that the system hasn't listened to victims which meant victims don't feel as though it's in their interests to come forward. It's an institutional issue within the industry. It's not a failure of the victims but of a system that perpetuates a climate that allows abuse to happen and that prevents detection by making it near impossible to be heard if you're a victim.

pblakeney

Tangled Metal wrote:

Solution?

Not got a clue but at least I'm not providing a knee jerk reaction that's tantamount to victim blaming. The only truth with all these big scandals is that the system hasn't listened to victims which meant victims don't feel as though it's in their interests to come forward. It's an institutional issue within the industry. It's not a failure of the victims but of a system that perpetuates a climate that allows abuse to happen and that prevents detection by making it near impossible to be heard if you're a victim.

Exactly. The situation has to reported outside of the industry, ergo the police. The only people that the police will listen to are the victims. It is not perfect, it may not even be right, but there is no other alternative. Is there?