Much Slower on my Winter bike ...why ?

kingrollo

I seem to loose around 2 mph when using my winter bike - and to be honest I feel so much slower on - there just doesn't as much power transfer.
My bikes
Best Bike - Kuota Kharma 2009 - Mid range CF bike
Winter Bike Giant Defy 2

The appeal of the defy is the permanent mudguards - I find these much better than the clip on jobs. I just wonder why I am so much slower on the giant ? - I have mulled over the possible reasons

1.I have had a full pro fit by adrian timmis including footbeds on the kuota - and have tried to replicate that position myself on the giant.

2.I did think wheels - but even when putting the kuota wheels on the giant - no real difference

3.As I used the giant for commuting I use SPD pedals - on the kuota its SPD-SL

4.Although I have the same rear cassette on both 11-28 - the giant has compact chainset where as the kuota doesn't

5.The Kuota is carbon , and there lighter and maybe just a better bike ?

6.I ride the kuota much more - so i am more used to the position

Any thoughts...

Midlands Grimpeur

Power transfer will have an effect. More so it is the colder conditions, the air is denser, your body works differently, road conditions are a factor. Basically pretty much anyone who lives in a country where it gets colder at some point will experience a similar thing.

There can also be a mindset effect at stake, some people ease off a bit (consciously or not) in winter and this can account for the general slowing down and lack of intensity in rides.

sloppyschleckonds

Its not winter yet

graeme_s-2

Tyres? Make/model, width, pressure?

timothyw

When you tried to replicate the position on your Giant, how did you go about it?

The key thing is getting the saddle position dialled in relative to the bottom bracket - to do this:

- Hold fitted bike (Kuota) upright on flat surface with back wheel against the wall
- Measure distance from middle of bottom bracket to floor and wall
- measure distance from center point of saddle to floor and wall
- subtract one measurement from the other to find out vertical and horizontal distances from bottom bracket to saddle
- switch to other bike, measure distance from bottom bracket to floor and back wall again
- use the distances measured from the other bike to set saddle position.
- repeat with handlebars if so desired.... remember, always measure relative to the bottom bracket as it can't be moved but it's position will vary relative to the floor/back of bike.

SPD vs SPD-SL shouldn't make much difference, but what could make a difference is cleat setup/positioning, and of course different shoes - there can be a big difference in feel between two pairs of bike shoes - i'd suggest trying spd-sl pedals on the giant to see if it feels more like the kuota (with your summer shoes). If so you might want to invest in some better carbon soled spd shoes, or perhaps get Adrian to set them up for you....

Standard vs compact chainset can also give quite a big difference in feel - you will tend to be pushing a somewhat easier gear on the compact, so you might not feel so 'powerful' although in practice there shouldn't be much speed difference unless you are running out of gears at either end.

Once you equalise all those factors, the kuota should still be a bit quicker on account of less frame flex and less vibration transfer - making you a bit more comfy and so able to go faster - but we're talking fractions of a MPH, the much larger difference is in winter the air is colder and so harder to push through - wind resistance is the major factor that slows cyclists down, there's more of it in winter.

part time waster

mud guards create a bit of drag , winter bikes maybe not as aero as bestest bike, add in winter clothing and the desire to gas bag and not push on.
we all go slower , chances are its windy more and I end up riding shoulders hunched up a bit, muttering about the s..t weather.

keef66

Once by sheer fluke I managed 2 identical rides on consecutive days, one on the summer carbon bike and one on the alu winter bike with guards. Same route / distance, same weather, AFAIK same kind of effort. The winter bike felt a bit heavier and more sluggish, but the Garmin recorded the same time bar a few seconds. So Lance was right.

My ave speed in winter is generally 1-2 mph slower than in summer. I put that down to denser air, less aero clothing, descending and taking corners a bit slower. Accumulation of marginal - er - losses I suppose

kingrollo

Thanks folks

I do commute all year year round on the winter bike - so don't think its a weather issue - I am slower on both bikes in winter !

The choice I am faced with (I think is)

1.Do i upgrade the frame of the winter bike to a carbon one that takes guards

2.Or do I sticky with the defy frame - but get a full pro bike fit ?

I am leaning towards option 2

keef66

I'd go with option 2 but DIY adjustments to replicate the Kuota position on the Defy.
And spend the money you've saved on chocolate.

roger_merriman

kingrollo wrote:

Thanks folks

I do commute all year year round on the winter bike - so don't think its a weather issue - I am slower on both bikes in winter !

The choice I am faced with (I think is)

1.Do i upgrade the frame of the winter bike to a carbon one that takes guards

2.Or do I sticky with the defy frame - but get a full pro bike fit ?

I am leaning towards option 2

I would presume that you use the Winter bike in wetter less good conditions though? with jackets and what not?

But a fit is probably a good solution? partially if it feels slower.

jgsi

Why worry....? I recommend
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Angst ... m_Elfmeter

fenix

How do you know you're putting the same effort in ? There's no way that the bike alone is stealing 2mph off you. Even if the brake was rubbing...

kingrollo

roger merriman wrote:

kingrollo wrote:

Thanks folks

I do commute all year year round on the winter bike - so don't think its a weather issue - I am slower on both bikes in winter !

The choice I am faced with (I think is)

1.Do i upgrade the frame of the winter bike to a carbon one that takes guards

2.Or do I sticky with the defy frame - but get a full pro bike fit ?

I am leaning towards option 2

I would presume that you use the Winter bike in wetter less good conditions though? with jackets and what not?

But a fit is probably a good solution? partially if it feels slower.

I commute on the defy all year round

kingrollo

Fenix wrote:

How do you know you're putting the same effort in ? There's no way that the bike alone is stealing 2mph off you. Even if the brake was rubbing...

Depends how u define effort. I find riding the defy more tiring - but I don't feel that the effort is rewarded with greater speed. I get more feedback from the kuota I feel the power going from the pedals into the back wheel....

fenix

2mph is about the difference i got in speed when I slapped a pair of tri bars on my road bike back in the early 90s - it was a huge difference. I cant see that could be down to putting mudguards on or the frame eating your power.

Is the front end on the winter bike lots higher ? Wider bars ? Basket on it ?

Matthewfalle

kingrollo wrote:

Thanks folks

I do commute all year year round on the winter bike - so don't think its a weather issue - I am slower on both bikes in winter !

The choice I am faced with (I think is)

1.Do i upgrade the frame of the winter bike to a carbon one that takes guards

2.Or do I sticky with the defy frame - but get a full pro bike fit ?

I am leaning towards option 2

(1) obviously otherwise all you are doing is throwing money away trying to polish something that can't be polished.

Obvs, innit.

trivial_poursuivant

New bikes go faster. Fact!

kingrollo

Matthewfalle wrote:

kingrollo wrote:

Thanks folks

I do commute all year year round on the winter bike - so don't think its a weather issue - I am slower on both bikes in winter !

The choice I am faced with (I think is)

1.Do i upgrade the frame of the winter bike to a carbon one that takes guards

2.Or do I sticky with the defy frame - but get a full pro bike fit ?

I am leaning towards option 2

(1) obviously otherwise all you are doing is throwing money away trying to polish something that can't be polished.

Obvs, innit.

Thought the defy was a reasonablish bike ?

There isn't really a carbon bike option (that takes MG'S)- the dolan dual but expensive for what it is at £600 for the frame.

Im not really into the gravel bike thingy - plus Adrian timmis is doing fits for £110 without footbeds

cougie

Pick up the winter Bike and make sure everything is rotating as it should. If there's nothing wrong with it then the difference must be you. Use a hrm or power meter to check you're using the same effort. 2mph is huge.

chris_bass

if you look at it the other way around, if you weren't faster on your good bike what would be the point in owning it?

Orkneylad

What tyres do you have on both bikes? I find that's a big differential between my summer/winter rides.

kingrollo

Orkneylad wrote:

What tyres do you have on both bikes? I find that's a big differential between my summer/winter rides.

I took the wheels/tyres from my best bike and put them on the giant - didn't really feel any difference.

veronese68

Chris Bass wrote:

if you look at it the other way around, if you weren't faster on your good bike what would be the point in owning it?

Good bit of lateral thinking there CB. Imagine how annoying that would be.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

I suspect it is about a number of marginal losses such as...
Frame geometry (making you less aero on Defy)
Drivetrain wear (Defy gets more use and not cleaned/replaced so often?)
Mudguards (adding to negative aero on Defy)
Subtle gearing differences between standard Kuota and compact Defy chainrings suit your power output better
Defy frame flexing more under power
etc.

pblakeney

Veronese68 wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

if you look at it the other way around, if you weren't faster on your good bike what would be the point in owning it?

Good bit of lateral thinking there CB. Imagine how annoying that would be.

More to the point, total justification for getting an even better good bike.

gimpl

So I have two Defys, one alu, one CF. Both with Ultegra although one 10sp and one 11sp. I don't have the Defy guards on as they don't fit an XL frame very well but I do have Cruds on the alu frame with 23mm GP4000's. On the CF frame I have 25mm GP4000's. Until this year they both had identical wheels on as well. Set up is identical on both bikes. So all very similar.....

However, I feel at least a gear down on the alu frame always and the CF frame feels like it just zips along. Possibly denser air, almost certainly a bit of rub from the Cruds but always slower. I don't stress about it anymore, it is just winter miles after all, just try and go with it and accept it for what it is.

ravey1981

Its good to have a slow, heavy winter bike as it makes your good bike seem like a rocket ship come spring.....

fudgey

Why? You are not trying hard enough?

For example yesterday on my lunch time blast i was on my posh bike - Colnago C60 with vision tri-max T35's
15.5 miles in 47:04 so 19.8 mph average. It was quite windy.

Now today, i was on the winter bike - Colnago CX Zero alloy with vision trimax T25 wheels with mudguards.
Exactly the same route in the same direction and it was windyerer and i was feeling it in the leggywegs...
15.5 miles in 46:45 av speed of 20mph.

Not much in it but i was faster today.

Ill build up the holiday bike - Colnago AC-R, and repeat next week, see what that one can do lol.

kingrollo

Fudgey wrote:

Why? You are not trying hard enough?

For example yesterday on my lunch time blast i was on my posh bike - Colnago C60 with vision tri-max T35's
15.5 miles in 47:04 so 19.8 mph average. It was quite windy.

Now today, i was on the winter bike - Colnago CX Zero alloy with vision trimax T25 wheels with mudguards.
Exactly the same route in the same direction and it was windyerer and i was feeling it in the leggywegs...
15.5 miles in 46:45 av speed of 20mph.

Not much in it but i was faster today.

Ill build up the holiday bike - Colnago AC-R, and repeat next week, see what that one can do lol.

not really sure of you're point.

I said I was slower on my winter bike. I wasn't seeking to say that everyone would be slower on there own winter bike.

Anyway I've booked in for a bike fit with AT

Frank Wilson

Could you furnish the readership with the respective colours of the two bikes, I think this may be where the answer lies.

ben@31

Fenix wrote:

How do you know you're putting the same effort in ?

A powermeter would show you having to maintain a harder effort for the same speed. Or a slower speed for the same effort.

I suppose speed doesn't matter, as its effected by so many variables like wind and gradient. It's the power that you maintain while cycling that matters. You might be going slower on your winter bike but having a much better workout.