New Propel to be disc only.
Comments
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Imposter wrote:Trivial poursuivant wrote:
That's a big possibility so expect insurance to ride in such events to go up, they won't miss this trick trust me. And if you sign a waver and don't have insurance then what if you cause a crash?
Again, that's not how it works. If you're a BC member, you have insurance on your race licence. The organiser has BC event insurance. If you're a non member, you don't sign a waiver, you buy a day licence. Which gives you the above.
Yes, and them premiums will go up, guarantee it0 -
Trivial poursuivant wrote:joey54321 wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Imposter wrote:Never really understood the 'mixed braking' issue. Can't see why anyone with any experience would see it as a risk. In a road race bunch, you only ever need to slow down at the same rate as whoever is in front of you. Most of the time, you are braking to scrub a couple of mph off your speed, rather than slamming on the anchors to come to a complete stop, which pretty much never happens.
I don't think it is important whether the issue is real or not... it is however correct that if a single organiser goes ahead and allows discs, whatever is going to happen will be blamed on his decision. I don't see an appetite for changing things in a litigation society, unless change is imposed from the top and the top takes responsability in case of legal action
A single organisers can't do this, it's against BC regs. When or if BC regs get updated to allow it then each rider will tick the box saying they agree to it. If you tick a box saying you agree to participate in a race with the potential for mixed braking sytems (or whatever legal wording is required) then you have no recourse this is what causes a crash. Other safety procedures not being followed is different, and if the procedures aren't up to scratch according to the BC regs then sure, the organiser is at fault.
That's a big possibility so expect insurance to ride in such events to go up, they won't miss this trick trust me. And if you sign a waver and don't have insurance then what if you cause a crash?
You aren't allowed to race, simple. If you do race without it I guess, if anything, people would be able to sue you. This is how the system operates now btw.
Anyway, this is enough of the matter from as this is just starting to turn in to trolling. Suffice to say there is no legal reason why BC couldn't introduce disc brakes. There may or may not be a safety issue and I'll leave you to troll on about that.0 -
Imposter wrote:Trivial poursuivant wrote:
But that's not true is it? Or is disc brake performance a myth? Yes rim brakes imo can stop quite quickly in most conditions but as pointed out by man many disc brake fans - discs stop you quicker, regardless of how good the rim brakes are the disc will do it faster, that means in a close bunch as in wheel to wheel a rider on discs in front will give a rider onrims behind less time to brake sufficiently to avoid fitting them, they will either lock the wheels or not decelerate fast enough
I don't think we're going to agree on this. I simply don't recognise that scenario - I've been racing since 93 and I've honestly never encountered it. You might need to slow from 30-28, or similar, or you might need to brake into a corner, so everyone will slow at the same rate, and calipers are perfectly capable of scrubbing off top speed, just like disks. How much pressure the rider applies to the lever is key, but the trick is always to slow down at the same rate as everyone else, for obvious reasons.
But if you're braking as hard you suggest in the middle of a road race bunch, then things are very wrong somewhere.
Have you raced in events with mixed brakes? You don't know what effect it will have, in cat 4 races you will get people who are heavy handed on the brakes. People panic and pull on the anchor and it does happen, again just cos it never happened to you does not make at an impossible scenario, look further than the end of your own nose0 -
joey54321 wrote:Trivial poursuivant wrote:joey54321 wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Imposter wrote:Never really understood the 'mixed braking' issue. Can't see why anyone with any experience would see it as a risk. In a road race bunch, you only ever need to slow down at the same rate as whoever is in front of you. Most of the time, you are braking to scrub a couple of mph off your speed, rather than slamming on the anchors to come to a complete stop, which pretty much never happens.
I don't think it is important whether the issue is real or not... it is however correct that if a single organiser goes ahead and allows discs, whatever is going to happen will be blamed on his decision. I don't see an appetite for changing things in a litigation society, unless change is imposed from the top and the top takes responsability in case of legal action
A single organisers can't do this, it's against BC regs. When or if BC regs get updated to allow it then each rider will tick the box saying they agree to it. If you tick a box saying you agree to participate in a race with the potential for mixed braking sytems (or whatever legal wording is required) then you have no recourse this is what causes a crash. Other safety procedures not being followed is different, and if the procedures aren't up to scratch according to the BC regs then sure, the organiser is at fault.
That's a big possibility so expect insurance to ride in such events to go up, they won't miss this trick trust me. And if you sign a waver and don't have insurance then what if you cause a crash?
You aren't allowed to race, simple. If you do race without it I guess, if anything, people would be able to sue you. This is how the system operates now btw.
Anyway, this is enough of the matter from as this is just starting to turn in to trolling. Suffice to say there is no legal reason why BC couldn't introduce disc brakes. There may or may not be a safety issue and I'll leave you to troll on about that.
Explain who is trolling and why? Please don't become another I don't like your opinion so you are a troll, you embarrass yourself0 -
Trivial poursuivant wrote:Have you raced in events with mixed brakes? You don't know what effect it will have, in cat 4 races you will get people who are heavy handed on the brakes. People panic and pull on the anchor and it does happen, again just cos it never happened to you does not make at an impossible scenario, look further than the end of your own nose
As I said before, I ride CX league events which operate both brake types with no issue, although you obviously don't get the bunch-style of riding there and the speeds are lower. But no, I haven't ridden in road races with both brake types, because obviously discs are not currently permitted in BC road/circuit events.
Like Joey, I'm going to leave you to it now.0 -
I think it's a shame. I've had an Ultegra rim-braked Propel for two years now, and it has the best rim brakes I have ever used; having said that, I have only ever had bikes with cheaper/inferior brakes than that. For the kind of riding I do, I don't think disc brakes are necessary. I just came back from Italy having climbed and descended the Blockhaus three times, I can't see how disc brakes would have made the descents any safer/faster.
The brakes are harder than normal to keep clean, and as a result parts can wear out more quickly.
If I get a windfall, I won't be looking at a new Propel because of the disc only decision.0 -
Just to add my two pennies worth, i have definitely been in Crit races where we are scrubbing a fair amount of speed off going into the corners, some corners are fairly tight and its part of the race to position yourself correctly, the further down the pack you are and into the bunch the more you end up braking relative to the guys at the front (thus the harder you have to work to get back to race pace)
Road races this is much less prevalent as the corners are obviously roads so it tends to be a different type of race (not braking, sprinting, back to full pace, brake into the next corner, sprint etc)
I ride with hydraulic disc brakes and also rim brakes, i wouldnt feel uncomfortable racing on my disc brakes, takes seconds for my brain to adjust to the different modulation. Theres a different degree of stopping power between my bog standard cheap rim brakes and my dura ace rim brakes.
I also had mechanical disc brakes, the braking on my good rim brakes is far superior both in terms of stopping power and also in feel.
Personal preference but i do like my disc hydraulic disc brakes. I cant see why we cant race on them, from what ive heard this may change in the next couple of years, but thats just gossip and nothing substantiated.0 -
Soon enough road will end up like cross where you can barely buy a bike with rim brakes anymore. Never thought that would happen a few years ago either.0
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Giant UK launch today. Bikes on website. I note you can still buy the old frame but new colours as a non disk bike. Good news for some.0
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Sounds like the "disc only" thing was just a marketing stunt. For the "new Propel is disc only" read "there is a new disc brake model of Propel". It's the "new" Propel because the disc frame is new, but they are still making the non-disc version..
They are really desperate for people to buy these things!0 -
neeb wrote:Sounds like the "disc only" thing was just a marketing stunt. For the "new Propel is disc only" read "there is a new disc brake model of Propel". It's the "new" Propel because the disc frame is new, but they are still making the non-disc version..
They are really desperate for people to buy these things!
It's a completely different frameset. So it's a whole new bike. If they sell rim versions in 2018 they will still be the old frame design.0 -
Well yes, of course it is - you can't make a disc version of a bike without making a completely new frameset. But the statement is clearly designed to give the impression that the "old" rim brake model is being replaced with the new disc version, which it now seems isn't the case. The old frame is old because it's the rim brake version.Trivial poursuivant wrote:It's a completely different frameset. So it's a whole new bike. If they sell rim versions in 2018 they will still be the old frame design.
It's the same with the new Foil disc - there's a new disc model for 2018 (with a new disc optimised frame) but the rim brake model will still be sold.
You certainly wouldn't want to have a rim brake bike that was based on a frame designed for discs - it would have the carbon in all the wrong places, longer than ideal chainstays, etc..0 -
neeb wrote:
Well yes, of course it is - you can't make a disc version of a bike without making a completely new frameset. But the statement is clearly designed to give the impression that the "old" rim brake model is being replaced with the new disc version, which it now seems isn't the case. The old frame is old because it's the rim brake version.Trivial poursuivant wrote:It's a completely different frameset. So it's a whole new bike. If they sell rim versions in 2018 they will still be the old frame design.
It's the same with the new Foil disc - there's a new disc model for 2018 (with a new disc optimised frame) but the rim brake model will still be sold.
You certainly wouldn't want to have a rim brake bike that was based on a frame designed for discs - it would have the carbon in all the wrong places, longer than ideal chainstays, etc..
Yeah, but the rim version currently for 2017 is quite dated now. Lots of manufacturers bring out new bikes with Also disc versions having modified for disc tubes but the new Propel is completely new. Every tube is different to the rim version therefore it's a complete reworking. The Foil since you mention it is still a good 90% identical disc to rim version.0 -
Hmm, the "new" Propel still looks extremely similar to the old one to me - the area around the junction of the top tube, seat tube and seat post is a little different, but otherwise I find it hard to see any big changes from photos at least.. The Foil disc equally has some different tube profiles, e.g. on the fork, and the chainstays must be different.Trivial poursuivant wrote:Yeah, but the rim version currently for 2017 is quite dated now. Lots of manufacturers bring out new bikes with Also disc versions having modified for disc tubes but the new Propel is completely new. Every tube is different to the rim version therefore it's a complete reworking. The Foil since you mention it is still a good 90% identical disc to rim version.
Splitting hairs I think.. ;-)0
