New Propel to be disc only.

2

Comments

  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    bristolpete wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Gimpl wrote:
    Maybe I'm in a minority not wanting to change over but I am one of their target markets.

    Maybe not... I even came back from discs to rims...

    5 years ago the printed books market was over, as everybody should read e-books on a kindle. Now it's been 2 years of steady decline for e-books and printed books are back strongly. I have not seen a Kindle around in ages. "Progress" doesn't necessarily go in the direction big money wants it to go.

    Even vinyl is making a strong comeback

    Tapes next. :mrgreen:

    Probably not, because they never had the richness of sound that vinyl had. If you understand how the microchannel works, you appreciate the beauty of a non digital sound and that's why a lot of people with good ears still want vinyl.

    There is no reason to abandon rim brakes, which can be extremely good, extremely light and very easy to service, against the complexity of hydraulic disc brakes, which in essence require a well tooled workshop to service and repair.

    Poorer performance that works 100% of the times trumps better performance that works 99.9% of the times. In essence, leaking pistons, lack of wear compensation and damaged hydraulic lines seem to be more frequent complaints than a ruptured cables and failing rim calipers
    left the forum March 2023
  • joey54321
    joey54321 Posts: 1,297
    neeb wrote:
    I'm more or less ambivalent about discs - I'm a crap descender and would really appreciate them for riding in proper mountains, but for 95% of the riding I do the hassle, complication and minor weight penalty very marginally outweigh the advantages. Which (all in all) means that if I could easily upgrade I might, but the upgrade path is a total nightmare! I always buy my frames, wheels and groupsets individually and build my own bikes. I never buy any of these things at the same time - I'll buy a new frame one year and new wheels the next. Components such as bars, pedals, stems, saddles etc get passed from one bike to the next and rarely need to be changed. To go with disc brakes I would basically need to get a whole new bike and at least one extra set of wheels, and to get something anywhere near the level of my current best bike would be completely affordable - approaching a 5 figure sum.

    A five figure sum? Maybe to get the exactly the same level but the difference between a well specced budget build £1k bike and a £10k bike, imo, is pretty small. To be honest, if discs were allowed in races I would rather a bike the spec of my current bike (~£1.5k) with discs than a £10k bike with rim brakes.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    joey54321 wrote:
    To be honest, if discs were allowed in races I would rather a bike the spec of my current bike (~£1.5k) with discs than a £10k bike with rim brakes.

    Do you race?

    I've never ridden a race anywhere in the UK which was won by the guy with the best brakes.
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,473
    joey54321 wrote:
    A five figure sum? Maybe to get the exactly the same level but the difference between a well specced budget build £1k bike and a £10k bike, imo, is pretty small. To be honest, if discs were allowed in races I would rather a bike the spec of my current bike (~£1.5k) with discs than a £10k bike with rim brakes.
    Thing is, the discs are going to add 0.5 - 1kg anyway even at the same frame/component level. If I "downgrade" to have an affordable disc brake bike, that adds more weight and I end up with an 8.5kg bike instead of a 6.5kg bike. I'm 63kg myself and climbing is my forte. I do TTs and hill climbs but not mass-start racing. I like the responsive feel of a light bike. On my best bike discs are only going to be of use in Mallorca or the Alps once a year or less.
  • Semantik
    Semantik Posts: 537
    edited September 2017
    For spirited riding in the wet and descending steep climbs in the same conditions I can see the appeal of hydraulic discs. The rest of the time I don't need them or want them.
    Saying that, the one component on the rim braked Propel I don't particularly care for is the brakes so I would swap it for a disc braked version without hesitation. Otherwise ,modern Shimano dual pivot rim brakes of the better groupsets are damn good.
  • memsley89
    memsley89 Posts: 247
    bristolpete wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Gimpl wrote:
    Maybe I'm in a minority not wanting to change over but I am one of their target markets.

    Even vinyl is making a strong comeback

    Tapes next. :mrgreen:

    https://thecribs.tmstor.es/cart/product.php?id=33491
    The fact it sold out says alot :lol:
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  • fenix
    fenix Posts: 5,437
    Imposter wrote:
    joey54321 wrote:
    To be honest, if discs were allowed in races I would rather a bike the spec of my current bike (~£1.5k) with discs than a £10k bike with rim brakes.

    Do you race?

    I've never ridden a race anywhere in the UK which was won by the guy with the best brakes.

    Has a race ever been won by the guy on the best bike even ?
  • joey54321
    joey54321 Posts: 1,297
    Imposter wrote:
    joey54321 wrote:
    To be honest, if discs were allowed in races I would rather a bike the spec of my current bike (~£1.5k) with discs than a £10k bike with rim brakes.

    Do you race?

    I've never ridden a race anywhere in the UK which was won by the guy with the best brakes.


    Yes. Lots. For 8 years. Many times in the rain.

    Though that is somewhat beside the point for me. I like hydraulic brakes, they are fantastic are stopping as well as giving you loads of consistent control (think feathering rather than absolute power). I am never going to be a pro bike racer and I want to ride the bike I enjoy most. In the wet I enjoy having hydro discs, therefore want them on my race bike, unfortunately for me at the moment I can't. If I always raced and rode in warm, dry sun I probably wouldn't care as much.
  • trivial_poursuivant
    trivial_poursuivant Posts: 1,136
    Fenix wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    joey54321 wrote:
    To be honest, if discs were allowed in races I would rather a bike the spec of my current bike (~£1.5k) with discs than a £10k bike with rim brakes.

    Do you race?

    I've never ridden a race anywhere in the UK which was won by the guy with the best brakes.

    Has a race ever been won by the guy on the best bike even ?

    An issue to consider is when are disc brakes likely to be race legal? If you try and compare cat 1 and below to professional world tour races you need to consider this (mainly cos BC or whoever need to for safety reasons) . In the pro tour if you introduce discs in all tour events the teams can and will probably all adopt them pretty quickly. As many a pro has stated , non other than Chris Froome, if one has discs they all have discs or it's a no go. That all fine for pro teams. But in the amateur leagues pretty much everyone is riding their own bike. It's going to come down to either having different races (not really workable) risk allowing both rim and discs and a potential high volume of crashes due to rim brakes being outperformed and creaming into the rider in front, or continue to ban discs because it's easier and no one likes a lawsuits on their hands. The race scene in the UK is very competitive at all levels and adding inexperienced riders into an event where there could be a large gulf in braking is going to cause carnage. I doubt many race organisers have the insurance to cover themselves being sued in an event of a serious injury that they allowed to happen knowing there was a possible imbalance in braking ability across the field.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    I don't see any issue with running discs and calipers side by side. Works perfectly well in CX right now.
  • fenix
    fenix Posts: 5,437
    TP - did you miss the discs being used in the Tour ? I didn't see any reports of crashes because some had disks and most didnt ?
  • trivial_poursuivant
    trivial_poursuivant Posts: 1,136
    Fenix wrote:
    TP - did you miss the discs being used in the Tour ? I didn't see any reports of crashes because some had disks and most didnt ?

    Pro riders with better handling skills and first time round there were a few so don't say they never did.

    I'm raising the point an amateur league will take this into consideration. If they didn't we would have no such ban right now would we?
  • fenix
    fenix Posts: 5,437
    I read reports of injuries from disks - but not more crashes ?
  • joey54321
    joey54321 Posts: 1,297
    I don't think you can sue an organiser for a crash in a race if they did the proper safety stuff beforehand. If it's known there is a possibility of mixed breaking I don't think you could then sue if it caused a crash. The times i've crahed in races and it's not been my fault it certainly hasn't crossed my mind to sue.
  • trivial_poursuivant
    trivial_poursuivant Posts: 1,136
    edited September 2017
    joey54321 wrote:
    The times i've crahed in races and it's not been my fault it certainly hasn't crossed my mind to sue.

    That's not to say someone eventually will. Race organisers were sued for a spectator death not long ago due to poor barrier placement. Who's to say a serious injury or death would not be treated the same? If you organise an event you need to have liability insurance, if they deem mixed brakes a reasonably high risk they will ban it. Simple as that

    There are a lot of people with an 'it never happened to me so it never can' attitude
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Never really understood the 'mixed braking' issue. Can't see why anyone with any experience would see it as a risk. In a road race bunch, you only ever need to slow down at the same rate as whoever is in front of you. Most of the time, you are braking to scrub a couple of mph off your speed, rather than slamming on the anchors to come to a complete stop, which pretty much never happens.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    Imposter wrote:
    Never really understood the 'mixed braking' issue. Can't see why anyone with any experience would see it as a risk. In a road race bunch, you only ever need to slow down at the same rate as whoever is in front of you. Most of the time, you are braking to scrub a couple of mph off your speed, rather than slamming on the anchors to come to a complete stop, which pretty much never happens.

    I don't think it is important whether the issue is real or not... it is however correct that if a single organiser goes ahead and allows discs, whatever is going to happen will be blamed on his decision. I don't see an appetite for changing things in a litigation society, unless change is imposed from the top and the top takes responsability in case of legal action
    left the forum March 2023
  • trivial_poursuivant
    trivial_poursuivant Posts: 1,136
    Imposter wrote:
    Never really understood the 'mixed braking' issue. Can't see why anyone with any experience would see it as a risk. In a road race bunch, you only ever need to slow down at the same rate as whoever is in front of you. Most of the time, you are braking to scrub a couple of mph off your speed, rather than slamming on the anchors to come to a complete stop, which pretty much never happens.

    There is the concertina effect in a large bunch and it happens in all racing . Rider at the front brakes the guy behind slightly afterwards and then by 5th 6th wheel there is no time to react. I've seen it happen, I've been in it when it's happened. Adding a braking system which is quicker to reduce a bikes speed that 5th 6th wheel can quickly be 2nd or 3rd and s bigger pile up
  • trivial_poursuivant
    trivial_poursuivant Posts: 1,136
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Never really understood the 'mixed braking' issue. Can't see why anyone with any experience would see it as a risk. In a road race bunch, you only ever need to slow down at the same rate as whoever is in front of you. Most of the time, you are braking to scrub a couple of mph off your speed, rather than slamming on the anchors to come to a complete stop, which pretty much never happens.

    I don't see an appetite for changing things in a litigation society, unless change is imposed from the top and the top takes responsability in case of legal action

    And this is the point. Who is going to be the one who takes on that responsibility?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Trivial poursuivant wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Never really understood the 'mixed braking' issue. Can't see why anyone with any experience would see it as a risk. In a road race bunch, you only ever need to slow down at the same rate as whoever is in front of you. Most of the time, you are braking to scrub a couple of mph off your speed, rather than slamming on the anchors to come to a complete stop, which pretty much never happens.

    There is the concertina effect in a large bunch and it happens in all racing . Rider at the front brakes the guy behind slightly afterwards and then by 5th 6th wheel there is no time to react. I've seen it happen, I've been in it when it's happened. Adding a braking system which is quicker to reduce a bikes speed that 5th 6th wheel can quickly be 2nd or 3rd and s bigger pile up

    That's not a brake problem though. That's a rider/handling problem. Disc or caliper will make no difference to that.
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    Imposter wrote:
    Never really understood the 'mixed braking' issue. Can't see why anyone with any experience would see it as a risk. In a road race bunch, you only ever need to slow down at the same rate as whoever is in front of you. Most of the time, you are braking to scrub a couple of mph off your speed, rather than slamming on the anchors to come to a complete stop, which pretty much never happens.

    It's comments like this that make me wonder whether you actually ride a bike or just spend all of your time on here! :lol:
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    I don't think it is important whether the issue is real or not... it is however correct that if a single organiser goes ahead and allows discs, whatever is going to happen will be blamed on his decision.

    That simply wouldn't happen in a BC sanctioned event. Unless discs had been generally approved for use within whatever level of event was being planed then it wouldn't receive the approval and therefore would not be covered by BC events insurance.
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    I don't see an appetite for changing things in a litigation society, unless change is imposed from the top and the top takes responsability in case of legal action

    I don't see where all these law suits are suddenly going to come from. If an event is taken on BC cover, then it's covered. If it isn't taken on, then it isn't covered and therefore doesn't go ahead as a sanctioned BC event.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    BuckMulligan wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Never really understood the 'mixed braking' issue. Can't see why anyone with any experience would see it as a risk. In a road race bunch, you only ever need to slow down at the same rate as whoever is in front of you. Most of the time, you are braking to scrub a couple of mph off your speed, rather than slamming on the anchors to come to a complete stop, which pretty much never happens.

    It's comments like this that make me wonder whether you actually ride a bike or just spend all of your time on here! :lol:

    Which part are you disagreeing with?
  • trivial_poursuivant
    trivial_poursuivant Posts: 1,136
    Imposter wrote:
    Trivial poursuivant wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Never really understood the 'mixed braking' issue. Can't see why anyone with any experience would see it as a risk. In a road race bunch, you only ever need to slow down at the same rate as whoever is in front of you. Most of the time, you are braking to scrub a couple of mph off your speed, rather than slamming on the anchors to come to a complete stop, which pretty much never happens.

    There is the concertina effect in a large bunch and it happens in all racing . Rider at the front brakes the guy behind slightly afterwards and then by 5th 6th wheel there is no time to react. I've seen it happen, I've been in it when it's happened. Adding a braking system which is quicker to reduce a bikes speed that 5th 6th wheel can quickly be 2nd or 3rd and s bigger pile up

    That's not a brake problem though. That's a rider/handling problem. Disc or caliper will make no difference to that.

    So why have discs at all? If you're saying they are no better than rim brakes. Your saying they are the same. Contradicting yourself now
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Trivial poursuivant wrote:

    So why have discs at all? If you're saying they are no better than rim brakes. Your saying they are the same. Contradicting yourself now

    I'm saying it's perfectly possible to pull up safely on rim brakes under most conditions. That's not an argument against discs, it's just the way things are. That's why I don't really see an issue with running discs and calipers side by side. I think the horror stories about pile-ups waiting to happen are all a bit OTT.
  • trivial_poursuivant
    trivial_poursuivant Posts: 1,136
    Imposter wrote:
    Trivial poursuivant wrote:

    So why have discs at all? If you're saying they are no better than rim brakes. Your saying they are the same. Contradicting yourself now

    I'm saying it's perfectly possible to pull up safely on rim brakes under most conditions. That's not an argument against discs, it's just the way things are. That's why I don't really see an issue with running discs and calipers side by side. I think the horror stories about pile-ups waiting to happen are all a bit OTT.

    But that's not true is it? Or is disc brake performance a myth? Yes rim brakes imo can stop quite quickly in most conditions but as pointed out by man many disc brake fans - discs stop you quicker, regardless of how good the rim brakes are the disc will do it faster, that means in a close bunch as in wheel to wheel a rider on discs in front will give a rider onrims behind less time to brake sufficiently to avoid fitting them, they will either lock the wheels or not decelerate fast enough
  • joey54321
    joey54321 Posts: 1,297
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Never really understood the 'mixed braking' issue. Can't see why anyone with any experience would see it as a risk. In a road race bunch, you only ever need to slow down at the same rate as whoever is in front of you. Most of the time, you are braking to scrub a couple of mph off your speed, rather than slamming on the anchors to come to a complete stop, which pretty much never happens.

    I don't think it is important whether the issue is real or not... it is however correct that if a single organiser goes ahead and allows discs, whatever is going to happen will be blamed on his decision. I don't see an appetite for changing things in a litigation society, unless change is imposed from the top and the top takes responsability in case of legal action


    A single organisers can't do this, it's against BC regs. When or if BC regs get updated to allow it then each rider will tick the box saying they agree to it. If you tick a box saying you agree to participate in a race with the potential for mixed braking sytems (or whatever legal wording is required) then you have no recourse this is what causes a crash. Other safety procedures not being followed is different, and if the procedures aren't up to scratch according to the BC regs then sure, the organiser is at fault.
  • trivial_poursuivant
    trivial_poursuivant Posts: 1,136
    joey54321 wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Never really understood the 'mixed braking' issue. Can't see why anyone with any experience would see it as a risk. In a road race bunch, you only ever need to slow down at the same rate as whoever is in front of you. Most of the time, you are braking to scrub a couple of mph off your speed, rather than slamming on the anchors to come to a complete stop, which pretty much never happens.

    I don't think it is important whether the issue is real or not... it is however correct that if a single organiser goes ahead and allows discs, whatever is going to happen will be blamed on his decision. I don't see an appetite for changing things in a litigation society, unless change is imposed from the top and the top takes responsability in case of legal action


    A single organisers can't do this, it's against BC regs. When or if BC regs get updated to allow it then each rider will tick the box saying they agree to it. If you tick a box saying you agree to participate in a race with the potential for mixed braking sytems (or whatever legal wording is required) then you have no recourse this is what causes a crash. Other safety procedures not being followed is different, and if the procedures aren't up to scratch according to the BC regs then sure, the organiser is at fault.

    That's a big possibility so expect insurance to ride in such events to go up, they won't miss this trick trust me. And if you sign a waver and don't have insurance then what if you cause a crash?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Trivial poursuivant wrote:

    But that's not true is it? Or is disc brake performance a myth? Yes rim brakes imo can stop quite quickly in most conditions but as pointed out by man many disc brake fans - discs stop you quicker, regardless of how good the rim brakes are the disc will do it faster, that means in a close bunch as in wheel to wheel a rider on discs in front will give a rider onrims behind less time to brake sufficiently to avoid fitting them, they will either lock the wheels or not decelerate fast enough

    I don't think we're going to agree on this. I simply don't recognise that scenario - I've been racing since 93 and I've honestly never encountered it. You might need to slow from 30-28, or similar, or you might need to brake into a corner, so everyone will slow at the same rate, and calipers are perfectly capable of scrubbing off top speed, just like disks. How much pressure the rider applies to the lever is key, but the trick is always to slow down at the same rate as everyone else, for obvious reasons.

    But if you're braking as hard you suggest in the middle of a road race bunch, then things are very wrong somewhere.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Trivial poursuivant wrote:

    That's a big possibility so expect insurance to ride in such events to go up, they won't miss this trick trust me. And if you sign a waver and don't have insurance then what if you cause a crash?

    Again, that's not how it works. If you're a BC member, you have insurance on your race licence. The organiser has BC event insurance. If you're a non member, you don't sign a waiver, you buy a day licence. Which gives you the above.

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