When does riding side by side become selfish?

Brakeless

Chris.D wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

I couldn't give a fark if drivers think we're arrogant.

Pity you feel this way. Many people do care, because cyclists are the ones that come out on the losing (or dead) end of car conflicts. I'll think of you next time I have a truck mirror go less than a foot from my head when passed on a deserted road, perhaps out of anger from negative interactions with arrogant cyclists.

I too have stopped riding with clubs because of the traffic conflicts that ensue, and mostly ride solo or with 2 or 3 like minded friends. Some conflicts arise due to rookie mistakes, but I have so often heard experienced cyclists arrogantly state their right to use the road while riding four abreast on narrow back roads. Car conflict inevitably ensues and makes what should be an enjoyable outing quite stressful. I know on a solo outing, someone will look at me as one of "them", and it's a shame.

Motorists don't know, care or probably believe that many cyclists ride in the lane instead of on the other side of the white line to avoid getting flats. I never ride in the lane if I can avoid it, staying on the other side of the white line I probably get more flats... oh well. I'd rather get a flat than get run off the road or killed by a truck mirror.

Riding solo I've found most drivers to be quite polite, and I go out of my way to be polite in return. I always give a "thank you" wave to cars that had to slow down for me before passing, same for the ones that wave me through an intersection before they go. I stop at stop signs, use hand signals and try to ride predictably. People appreciate that, and I like to think I'm making things better for other cyclists. It works for me, makes my rides far more pleasant and I seem to have far less car conflict than other cyclists I know.

YMMV

4 abreast on narrow back roads !

Can't be that narrow then.

Chris.D

Brakeless wrote:

4 abreast on narrow back roads !

Can't be that narrow then.

Or... they were taking up the entire lane.


Glad that was your entire takeaway from the post.

Brakeless

I just stopped reading at that point !

milemuncher1

I have, on occasions, instructed someone I'm riding with, to stay beside me, rather than drop behind me, if we've had a vehicle approach from behind, and we are close to a bend in the road, past which it would be difficult to see clearly enough, for a 'chancer' who might go for a gap which would disappear, should another road user appear on the other side of the lane, unexpectedly. If you remove any possibility of a squeeze, should an ill conceived pass, from an approaching road user, go wrong, then we stand a better chance of getting home in one piece. There's a fine line between being 'assertive' and being an 'arrogant' cyclist. Experience will show where the 'line' is.

slowbike

mfin wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

But, progressing at a reasonable speed, 2 abreast on a country lane where there's enough room for a car to get past - or will be shortly - no - I'll stay where I am, thank you.

And that, is why, drivers think cyclists are arrogant ****s.

You are sending them a message that they can wait. By filing out when you know they are approaching you are giving them the message that you don't want to put them out.

Thanks for pissing drivers off on our behalf.

(+1 Matthewfalle).

What?! There's enough room or will be shortly. Means I'm not slowing up the drivers - if it's going to be a while then I'll let them past as soon as I can. But I'm not going to jump in a ditch just because they're behind me.

If a driver can't wait 5 - 10 seconds then unless they have blue lights flashing then they shouldn't be on the road.

pinno

Milemuncher1 wrote:

...should another road user appear on the other side of the lane, unexpectedly. If you remove any possibility of a squeeze, should an ill conceived pass, from an approaching road user, go wrong, then we stand a better chance of getting home in one piece.

My point made previously but no one listens to me.

[exits right]

timothyw

Chris.D wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

I couldn't give a fark if drivers think we're arrogant.

Pity you feel this way. Many people do care, because cyclists are the ones that come out on the losing (or dead) end of car conflicts. I'll think of you next time I have a truck mirror go less than a foot from my head when passed on a deserted road, perhaps out of anger from negative interactions with arrogant cyclists.

I too have stopped riding with clubs because of the traffic conflicts that ensue, and mostly ride solo or with 2 or 3 like minded friends. Some conflicts arise due to rookie mistakes, but I have so often heard experienced cyclists arrogantly state their right to use the road while riding four abreast on narrow back roads. Car conflict inevitably ensues and makes what should be an enjoyable outing quite stressful. I know on a solo outing, someone will look at me as one of "them", and it's a shame.

Motorists don't know, care or probably believe that many cyclists ride in the lane instead of on the other side of the white line to avoid getting flats. I never ride in the lane if I can avoid it, staying on the other side of the white line I probably get more flats... oh well. I'd rather get a flat than get run off the road or killed by a truck mirror.

You sound like you might be worrying a bit too much. I've logged well over 300 hours of riding this year, and have been riding at a similar rate for several years. I've never been hit by a car out of malice.

I've never had a truck mirror pass within a foot of my head - if it's a regular occurrence for you then I feel sorry for you but it's not down to my arrogance.

I've had cars, buses and lorries pass closer than I might like them too, but at the end of the day they have managed to continue their journey and have done so without actively harming me.

I've had the occasional exchange of words with knuckle dragging simpletons who from their activities and manner seem to have little interest in preserving my health, but they've never hit me, with their cars or otherwise, where they've certainly had the opportunity.

The majority of the time I do ride in secondary (along the line that a cars curb side wheel follows) because it is smoother than the middle of the lane, and because I have no interest in actively obstructing vehicles overtaking me when it is safe for them to do so.

If it is unsafe or simply pointless for vehicles to overtake me then I move into primary (ie the middle of the lane...) in order to discourage them from doing so. Some will still try and overtake, but that's OK - by moving into primary I've given myself space to move into if they are passing me too close.

You might want to reflect on that as it sounds like by riding in the gutter you are giving drivers the excuse to pass you without adjusting their line - too close in other words. A bit of arrogance, or as I would usually put it assertiveness in the way you handle your bike can go a long way to making you safer.

If I'm on a group ride then most of the time we'll ride double file. We'll usually only drop into single file if doing so will enable vehicles to pass us safely that would not otherwise be able to. The key word there is safely.

I've never known any group to ride four abreast on the open road except in the rare situation where you have one group being overtaken by another faster one - which usually takes no more than 30 seconds.

Believe it or not, I even pulled into a side road to let a lorry pass me this morning when it became clear he would not have the chance to pass me otherwise. What I won't do is stop and jump in a ditch, or ride in the gutter and wave him past when to do so would endanger my life.

pblakeney

TimothyW wrote:

I've never had a truck mirror pass within a foot of my head - if it's a regular occurrence for you then I feel sorry for you but it's not down to my arrogance.

That's cos he cycles in the gutter leaving just enough room to squeeze through.
I suggest that people read Cyclecraft. Especially the bit about primary.

StillGoing

PBlakeney wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

I've never had a truck mirror pass within a foot of my head - if it's a regular occurrence for you then I feel sorry for you but it's not down to my arrogance.

That's cos he cycles in the gutter leaving just enough room to squeeze through.
I suggest that people read Cyclecraft. Especially the bit about primary.

Agreed. Why cyclists put themselves in the gutter is beyond me. It isn't about being selfish and everything to do with preserving your life if you take the primary position in the road. Make the vehicle driver make the pass only when the road ahead is clear instead of squeezing between you and an oncoming vehicle. What bikes need is a nice bit of angle iron sticking into the road ready to scrape down the side of a vehicle that gets too close.

veronese68

philthy3 wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

I suggest that people read Cyclecraft. Especially the bit about primary.

Agreed. Why cyclists put themselves in the gutter is beyond me. It isn't about being selfish and everything to do with preserving your life if you take the primary position in the road. Make the vehicle driver make the pass only when the road ahead is clear instead of squeezing between you and an oncoming vehicle.

Agree with all of this. Also, if two cyclists are riding side by side the outside rider would not be much further out than a rider in the primary position. If it's not safe to overtake a pair of riders because of oncoming traffic or the road is too narrow it's almost certainly not safe to overtake a single rider that is riding as recommended by the highway code.

There may of course be circumstances when things aren't so simple.

svetty

mfin wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

But, progressing at a reasonable speed, 2 abreast on a country lane where there's enough room for a car to get past - or will be shortly - no - I'll stay where I am, thank you.

And that, is why, drivers think cyclists are arrogant ****s.

You are sending them a message that they can wait. By filing out when you know they are approaching you are giving them the message that you don't want to put them out.

Thanks for pissing drivers off on our behalf.

(+1 Matthewfalle).

This is simply plain wrong. By leaping out of the way of cars you are simply reinforcing the idea that they are the primary legitimate users of the road and that cyclists are second class users who should be subservient to cars. Encouraging 'squeeze by' overtaking as you seem to be implying puts cyclists at risk - please desist.

mfin

Svetty wrote:

mfin wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

But, progressing at a reasonable speed, 2 abreast on a country lane where there's enough room for a car to get past - or will be shortly - no - I'll stay where I am, thank you.

And that, is why, drivers think cyclists are arrogant ****s.

You are sending them a message that they can wait. By filing out when you know they are approaching you are giving them the message that you don't want to put them out.

Thanks for pissing drivers off on our behalf.

(+1 Matthewfalle).

This is simply plain wrong. By leaping out of the way of cars you are simply reinforcing the idea that they are the primary legitimate users of the road and that cyclists are second class users who should be subservient to cars. Encouraging 'squeeze by' overtaking as you seem to be implying puts cyclists at risk - please desist.

Nope, it's simply plain right. I've ridden for years and years in a polite and considerate manner and the only time I get beeped when out riding in a pair is when someone does it to say thanks.

I accept there may be better ways to behave at some points when on busier roads, but on the roads I cycle on, their width and low amount of traffic, this works perfectly. It's safe, considerate, and it's good manners.

My default frame of mind is always to try not to put out any other road user who wants to go quicker than me. I don't put my safety at risk, I have a brain and assess each situation.

slowbike

mfin wrote:

Svetty wrote:

mfin wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

But, progressing at a reasonable speed, 2 abreast on a country lane where there's enough room for a car to get past - or will be shortly - no - I'll stay where I am, thank you.

And that, is why, drivers think cyclists are arrogant ****s.

You are sending them a message that they can wait. By filing out when you know they are approaching you are giving them the message that you don't want to put them out.

Thanks for pissing drivers off on our behalf.

(+1 Matthewfalle).

This is simply plain wrong. By leaping out of the way of cars you are simply reinforcing the idea that they are the primary legitimate users of the road and that cyclists are second class users who should be subservient to cars. Encouraging 'squeeze by' overtaking as you seem to be implying puts cyclists at risk - please desist.

Nope, it's simply plain right. I've ridden for years and years in a polite and considerate manner and the only time I get beeped when out riding in a pair is when someone does it to say thanks.

I accept there may be better ways to behave at some points when on busier roads, but on the roads I cycle on, their width and low amount of traffic, this works perfectly. It's safe, considerate, and it's good manners.

My default frame of mind is always to try not to put out any other road user who wants to go quicker than me. I don't put my safety at risk, I have a brain and assess each situation.

In italics - neither do I - but I see no reason to jump in the ditch everytime a car comes close - providing there is adequate space for them to pass - or will be very soon - see the above table!

svetty

mfin wrote:

My default frame of mind is always to try not to put out any other road user who wants to go quicker than me.

Do you immediately pull over and let following traffic past when you are driving - this would seem to be implied from your 'default frame of mind'? In fact you would inconvenience other road users less if you were to forego using the roads entirely - perhaps you should stay at home altogether in case you inadvertently delay someone else.

Perhaps you feel that by breathing you are depriving others of air?? :roll: :roll:

txom

Very interesting thread for me, as someone who doesn't ride in a group often. I started off agreeing with the "it's selfish" point of view, but I've come round to the argument that one or two abreast shouldn't make any difference - the overtaking car needs the other side of the road to be clear to overtake anyway.

But I'm not convinced that many car drivers would see it that way. So while dropping to single file to let cars overtake might encourage cars to squeeze past, sticking to two abreast is likely to annoy drivers who don't appreciate that single file wouldn't help them anyway, and may make them act less considerately towards cyclists in future.

Disappointing conclusion!

de_sisti

Animal72 wrote:

<braced for a shoeing>

Commuting home today, by motorbike, on a wide straight b-road.
Was forced almost to a halt by a bloke cycling in the outside wheel-tracks, swerving all over the place chatting to his (female) riding partner.

Little wonder we have a bad reputation with other road users.

(i) Define swerving all over the place.
(ii) What significance is the gender of the riding partner?

mfin

Slowbike wrote:

mfin wrote:

Svetty wrote:

mfin wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

But, progressing at a reasonable speed, 2 abreast on a country lane where there's enough room for a car to get past - or will be shortly - no - I'll stay where I am, thank you.

And that, is why, drivers think cyclists are arrogant ****s.

You are sending them a message that they can wait. By filing out when you know they are approaching you are giving them the message that you don't want to put them out.

Thanks for pissing drivers off on our behalf.

(+1 Matthewfalle).

This is simply plain wrong. By leaping out of the way of cars you are simply reinforcing the idea that they are the primary legitimate users of the road and that cyclists are second class users who should be subservient to cars. Encouraging 'squeeze by' overtaking as you seem to be implying puts cyclists at risk - please desist.

Nope, it's simply plain right. I've ridden for years and years in a polite and considerate manner and the only time I get beeped when out riding in a pair is when someone does it to say thanks.

I accept there may be better ways to behave at some points when on busier roads, but on the roads I cycle on, their width and low amount of traffic, this works perfectly. It's safe, considerate, and it's good manners.

My default frame of mind is always to try not to put out any other road user who wants to go quicker than me. I don't put my safety at risk, I have a brain and assess each situation.

In italics - neither do I - but I see no reason to jump in the ditch everytime a car comes close - providing there is adequate space for them to pass - or will be very soon - see the above table!

In italics - neither do I.

mfin

Svetty wrote:

mfin wrote:

My default frame of mind is always to try not to put out any other road user who wants to go quicker than me.

Do you immediately pull over and let following traffic past when you are driving - this would seem to be implied from your 'default frame of mind'?

No, and I don't drive slowly, but if someone is behind me, tailgating I will make sure I make it easy for them to pass, and if I know the road I might speed up a bit to get place where I know they can get past ...which is exactly what I'd want people to do if I was stuck behind them.

Slowing down and pulling over is rarely the answer, that can often mean the car behind is going to have to slow down with you and it might naff them off.

Just use the roads in a way that minimises inconvenience to others, whether driving or cycling. Sorry if that is annoying.

Anyway you're just making up scenarios, perhaps you're just wound up because you don't get it. Don't worry, you can use the roads like a prat if you want to in order to balance things out.

veronese68

mfin wrote:

Svetty wrote:

mfin wrote:

My default frame of mind is always to try not to put out any other road user who wants to go quicker than me.

Do you immediately pull over and let following traffic past when you are driving - this would seem to be implied from your 'default frame of mind'?

No, and I don't drive slowly, but if someone is behind me, tailgating I will make sure I make it easy for them to pass, and if I know the road I might speed up a bit to get place where I know they can get past ...which is exactly what I'd want people to do if I was stuck behind them.

Slowing down and pulling over is rarely the answer, that can often mean the car behind is going to have to slow down with you and it might naff them off.

Just use the roads in a way that minimises inconvenience to others, whether driving or cycling. Sorry if that is annoying.

Anyway you're just making up scenarios, perhaps you're just wound up because you don't get it. Don't worry, you can use the roads like a prat if you want to in order to balance things out.

Well that's clearly not true.

Chris.D

My experiences as posted above are purely anecdotal as are those of everyone.

I maintain that in my observation and experience where I live, making an active effort to minimize inconvenience to drivers increases their level of courtesy and safe overtaking. Based again on my observations, those that I ride with who insist on asserting their right to the lane when there is plenty of space in the "gutter" (we call it the shoulder here) have many more close calls when passed especially when there is oncoming traffic in the opposite direction. The few knuckle draggers in pickup trucks that buzz me while I am on the shoulder exercise even more dangerous overtaking tactics on those who ride in the lane.

The assertion that riding on the shoulder encourages drivers to give you no room is simply not true in my experience, quite the opposite in fact. The majority or drivers see me making an effort not to hog the road and reciprocate with wide, safe overtakes. FWIW I am in the US very near a city that has recently been recognized as having a high cyclist "hit rate". The cyclist behavior here is so bad (dare I say arrogant?) that certain roads have a reputation as being dangerous to ride because of local resident anger, including including anti-cyclist signs posted in yards and painted on the road.

Just because a highway code says cyclists may ride in a lane or ride abreast, does not mean drivers know that, care or that it is necessarily prudent. I would much rather not "assert my rights" and have a safer, more pleasant ride.

As always, YMMV.

pblakeney

YMMV indeed! You are in another Country to the majority here and the roads are very, very different.

animal72

De Sisti wrote:

Animal72 wrote:

<braced for a shoeing>

Commuting home today, by motorbike, on a wide straight b-road.
Was forced almost to a halt by a bloke cycling in the outside wheel-tracks, swerving all over the place chatting to his (female) riding partner.

Little wonder we have a bad reputation with other road users.

(i) Define swerving all over the place.
(ii) What significance is the gender of the riding partner?

(i) Riding between relatively closely to his riding partner and the white line. As mentioned it was a wide road so this was more than the width of a car. Was clearly having a chat with aforementioned riding partner with no apparent appreciation of his surroundings.
(ii) None.

Garry H

Chris.D wrote:

My experiences as posted above are purely anecdotal as are those of everyone.

I maintain that in my observation and experience where I live, making an active effort to minimize inconvenience to drivers increases their level of courtesy and safe overtaking. Based again on my observations, those that I ride with who insist on asserting their right to the lane when there is plenty of space in the "gutter" (we call it the shoulder here) have many more close calls when passed especially when there is oncoming traffic in the opposite direction. The few knuckle draggers in pickup trucks that buzz me while I am on the shoulder exercise even more dangerous overtaking tactics on those who ride in the lane.

The assertion that riding on the shoulder encourages drivers to give you no room is simply not true in my experience, quite the opposite in fact. The majority or drivers see me making an effort not to hog the road and reciprocate with wide, safe overtakes. FWIW I am in the US very near a city that has recently been recognized as having a high cyclist "hit rate". The cyclist behavior here is so bad (dare I say arrogant?) that certain roads have a reputation as being dangerous to ride because of local resident anger, including including anti-cyclist signs posted in yards and painted on the road.

Just because a highway code says cyclists may ride in a lane or ride abreast, does not mean drivers know that, care or that it is necessarily prudent. I would much rather not "assert my rights" and have a safer, more pleasant ride.

As always, YMMV.

Where are you? USA?

Garry H

mfin wrote:

Svetty wrote:

mfin wrote:

My default frame of mind is always to try not to put out any other road user who wants to go quicker than me.

Do you immediately pull over and let following traffic past when you are driving - this would seem to be implied from your 'default frame of mind'?

No, and I don't drive slowly, but if someone is behind me, tailgating I will make sure I make it easy for them to pass, and if I know the road I might speed up a bit to get place where I know they can get past ...which is exactly what I'd want people to do if I was stuck behind them.

Slowing down and pulling over is rarely the answer, that can often mean the car behind is going to have to slow down with you and it might naff them off.

Just use the roads in a way that minimises inconvenience to others, whether driving or cycling. Sorry if that is annoying.

Anyway you're just making up scenarios, perhaps you're just wound up because you don't get it. Don't worry, you can use the roads like a prat if you want to in order to balance things out.

Patsy.

shimanobottombracket

Garry H wrote:

mfin wrote:

Svetty wrote:

mfin wrote:

My default frame of mind is always to try not to put out any other road user who wants to go quicker than me.

Do you immediately pull over and let following traffic past when you are driving - this would seem to be implied from your 'default frame of mind'?

No, and I don't drive slowly, but if someone is behind me, tailgating I will make sure I make it easy for them to pass, and if I know the road I might speed up a bit to get place where I know they can get past ...which is exactly what I'd want people to do if I was stuck behind them.

Slowing down and pulling over is rarely the answer, that can often mean the car behind is going to have to slow down with you and it might naff them off.

Just use the roads in a way that minimises inconvenience to others, whether driving or cycling. Sorry if that is annoying.

Anyway you're just making up scenarios, perhaps you're just wound up because you don't get it. Don't worry, you can use the roads like a prat if you want to in order to balance things out.

Patsy.

Pasty

andyh01

Perhaps not the best thread to comment my very recent encounter and interesting discussion with a car driver that I had this evening. Perjaps I'll start my own thread in the family section.

My inexperienced 8 tear old and I were cycling home on the road from the local swimming pool at rush hour. My Son was in front, I behind and more in the middle to afford him some protection. much to the annoyance of one particular driver, who apparently beeped their horn, out of concern for his safety. Still the look on her face when I tapped on the window and asked for an explanation at he lights was amusing one...

laurentian

When does riding side by side become selfish?

When those doing so are aware of a faster vehicle behind them who could pass safely if they were in single file but choose to do nothing about it.

milemuncher1

laurentian wrote:

When does riding side by side become selfish?

When those doing so are aware of a faster vehicle behind them who could pass safely if they were in single file but choose to do nothing about it, because doing so would increase the length of the line, which would increase the risk to them.

IFTFY.

pblakeney

We always go single file when being followed simply to avoid this discussion. It is otherwise meaningless.
It is not uncommon for a car to fail in passing everyone and squeeze in. This does not aid cycling safety.

veronese68

Milemuncher1 wrote:

laurentian wrote:

When does riding side by side become selfish?

When those doing so are aware of a faster vehicle behind them who could pass safely if they were in single file but choose to do nothing about it, because doing so would increase the length of the line, which would increase the risk to them.

IFTFY.

Increasing the risk is the opposite of allowing them to pass safely. You've taken a reasonable statement and turned it into gibberish, you have fixed nothing. Read what has been written and think before posting please.