TdF 2017: Stage 18 Briançon - Izoard, 179.5kms *Spoilers*

1…89101113

Comments

  • dolan_driver
    dolan_driver Posts: 831
    philthy3 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    54x11.

    54x11


    54x11


    Better than sticking your hand up and moaning about people attacking you.

    Oh please! Uran has sat on all tour and Cannondale have done SFA work. Uran was on a descent when his RD jammed/battery failed unlike Froome who was on the ascent when his gears failed.

    His rear derailleur malfunctioned because it was damaged when he got caught up in the Porte/Martin crash. He never made an issue about it, got the Mavic guys to put it in the 11 and went on to win a brilliant stage. As regards not attacking a whole lot, he knows his own strengths and those of Sky. He isn't a natural climber like Bardet at al and knows his greatest asset, given the company he finds himself in, is his time trial. He could conceivably win the TT and the Tour on Saturday but it is highly unlikely. He can secure second spot on the GC though and his racing in the last week has been tailored to that. If he did try to attack, Sky would be all over him like a rash. Of the top five currently, he is the only one who will get anywhere near Froome in the TT and he was never going to be given any leeway in the mountains. Cannondale probably never dreamed they would have Uran in this position and so brought a team that isn't geared towards supporting an assault on the GC. He has ridden to his strengths and will end up on the podium, hopefully in second. Given the difficulties he faced back home as a teenager, it is hard to begrudge him this result.

    The only thing he can really be criticized about is the absence of his mullet! It's a shame we won't see that on the podium in Paris. :)

    DD.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 27,760
    I think they've mostly all done what they can. Uran has got to be happy with a podium, but knows he is never likely to destroy Froome on a climb. Bardet has attacked whenever he can, and got a stage win, but Froome just hasn't cracked. Landa has looked like he might be phenomenal. Martin has shown he's a potential GC winner if he had a team. Yates and Meintjes both look strong, and Barguil is now only behind by about the time he lost on stage 8.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,160
    Anyone commented on the overall French performance?
    Odds on podium, 5 stages with 4 different winners, and outside chance of the boxer on Sunday.
    Must be the best for a long while.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,648
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    Anyone commented on the overall French performance?
    Odds on podium, 5 stages with 4 different winners, and outside chance of the boxer on Sunday.
    Must be the best for a long while.

    As good as Kittel (had he finished)
    _
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,398
    I think criticising Uran for wheelsucking is a bit weak - by that argument Froome has mostly been "wheelsucking" Sky riders, Bardet AG2R. The only difference is Uran doesn't have a team worth anything so he has to piggyback onto the other teams.

    Anyway if he was a true wheelsucker he would have let Bardet close that gap.
  • davidof
    davidof Posts: 3,095
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Martin has shown he's a potential GC winner if he had a team.

    Martin is like an old school racer in the mould of a Merck or Hinault, can win the classics and maybe a GT. Possible the most complete cyclist around today.
    BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
    Instagramme
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,160
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    Anyone commented on the overall French performance?
    Odds on podium, 5 stages with 4 different winners, and outside chance of the boxer on Sunday.
    Must be the best for a long while.

    As good as Kittel (had he finished)

    More thinking about the breadth.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,160
    davidof wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Martin has shown he's a potential GC winner if he had a team.

    Martin is like an old school racer in the mould of a Merck or Hinault, can win the classics and maybe a GT. Possible the most complete cyclist around today.

    Kwia?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,648
    On reflection, AG2R tactics were weak on this stage.
    _
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 27,760
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    On reflection, AG2R tactics were weak on this stage.

    What should they have done? They needed to find out if there was any weakness in Sky, but there wasn't. Landa was stronger than any of them, and Bardet was no stronger than Froome.
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    davidof wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Martin has shown he's a potential GC winner if he had a team.

    Martin is like an old school racer in the mould of a Merck or Hinault, can win the classics and maybe a GT. Possible the most complete cyclist around today.

    Yeah, right. 49 seconds down and 57th place on the Stage 1 time trial which was a heady 14km long. That's the mark of a "complete" cyclist. Another one trick pony like Quintana who's not all that special at his one trick judging by the amount of time he lost on the last two mountain stages.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    davidof wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Martin has shown he's a potential GC winner if he had a team.

    Martin is like an old school racer in the mould of a Merck or Hinault, can win the classics and maybe a GT. Possible the most complete cyclist around today.
    Geraint Thomas, maybe. He's won a cobbled classic, mountain top finishes, stage races, time trials and track medals. He also used to do sprint lead outs.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,031
    Lookyhere wrote:
    Until there is a way to stop very strong teams dominating, instead of the riders, the TDF will be somewhat boring and predictable.

    Agreed. Sky have been so strong despite losing arguably their number 2 rider they can place a domestique in the top 4 on GC. Reducing teams to 8 will be a start but why not bite the bullet and get them down to 7 or even 6, it'd also discourage second string GC riders to ride in service as they'd have to do more of the early donkey work.

    As it was the opportunities for Bardet, Aru and Uran were few and far between, the situation where Froome popped a spoke was a missed chance and possibly where he lost time on that last sharp kick up but relatively little because there wasn't far to go when the attacks came.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 27,760
    hypster wrote:
    davidof wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Martin has shown he's a potential GC winner if he had a team.

    Martin is like an old school racer in the mould of a Merck or Hinault, can win the classics and maybe a GT. Possible the most complete cyclist around today.

    Yeah, right. 49 seconds down and 57th place on the Stage 1 time trial which was a heady 14km long. That's the mark of a "complete" cyclist. Another one trick pony like Quintana who's not all that special at his one trick judging by the amount of time he lost on the last two mountain stages.

    I think unsurprisingly, he's somewhere between these two extremes. An all round good cyclist, but not a really great climber, not a great time triallist, not as good as Valverde at his type of classics. Not enough to say "most complete", but could still have been at least fourth in this race given different luck on two stages.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,031
    Dolan Driver wrote:
    . Given the difficulties he faced back home as a teenager, it is hard to begrudge him this result.

    The only thing he can really be criticized about is the absence of his mullet! It's a shame we won't see that on the podium in Paris. :)

    DD.


    I've always liked him but given how strong he's looked he's ridden very conservatively. OK so it's been a while since he was in this form he probably has more reason than most to be happy with a podium but would it have hurt him to have a dig at some point yesterday?

    We can be happy a nice guy will likely get second and still criticise his lack of attacking.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Lookyhere wrote:
    Until there is a way to stop very strong teams dominating, instead of the riders, the TDF will be somewhat boring and predictable.

    Agreed. Sky have been so strong despite losing arguably their number 2 rider they can place a domestique in the top 4 on GC. Reducing teams to 8 will be a start but why not bite the bullet and get them down to 7 or even 6, it'd also discourage second string GC riders to ride in service as they'd have to do more of the early donkey work.

    As it was the opportunities for Bardet, Aru and Uran were few and far between, the situation where Froome popped a spoke was a missed chance and possibly where he lost time on that last sharp kick up but relatively little because there wasn't far to go when the attacks came.

    I think the problem for everyone else is the strength in depth that Sky have in their squad. To think they also have the likes of Peter Kennaugh and Ian Stannard at home that they didn't bring shows that. Obviously the team they do have is very strong as well so if someone is not going well on any particular stage then there are usually 2 or 3 others there to support Froome.

    Undeniably though, I would say Frome is the strongest rider in the peloton at the moment and he has been isolated in tours and stage races in the past and still performed on his own. A strong support team is stll necessary when the going gets tough like stage 15 where Froome was delayed by a broken spoke. That's the sort of thing that can make all the difference between winning or losing but I'm not sure in this Tour, at this time, he wouldn't still have got back on.

    The Vuelta last year shows that other teams can expose Sky when they are asleep but maybe they have learnt from that lesson as well. They are strong not just because of the riders they employ but their whole approach is very focussed on one thing.
  • wiggofan
    wiggofan Posts: 30
    Regarding Chris, I don't think he's the climber he was 2 or 3 years ago. He was exceptional making it back after his mechanical on stage 15, but apart from that he hasn't looked that convincing to me, his attack on this stage failing, plus being dropped on stage 12, and never really looking like he would win a mountain stage this year.

    Looking further ahead, I hope I'm wrong because I'd like to see Chris win at least 5 TdFs, preferably more, but I have my doubts whether he will even be Sky's leader next year, and if he is I can see a serious 'in-house' challenge, with a similar dilemma as 2012.
    No longer a Wiggo fan
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,398
    edited July 2017
    /\ except Landa won't be there.
  • imatfaal
    imatfaal Posts: 2,716
    wiggofan wrote:
    Regarding Chris, I don't think he's the climber he was 2 or 3 years ago. He was exceptional making it back after his mechanical on stage 15, but apart from that he hasn't looked that convincing to me, his attack on this stage failing and being dropped on stage 12, and never really looking like he would win a mountain stage this year.

    Looking further ahead, I hope I'm wrong because I'd like to see Chris win at least 5 TdFs, preferably more, but I have my doubts whether he will even be Sky's leader next year.

    I think Sky would love to have a 5 tour winner - so Chris will lead next year barring a collapse in form.

    On his performance - it should be remembered he and team has already hinted that he is going for Tour/Vuelta double. Thus you do enough to win - but do not risk completely emptying tank. To be honest I still do not think he will manage double - even though he has Wout back for Vuelta
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 27,760
    If there's any TTs in it, he can win again next year. Would love to see Bardet win it though.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,535
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    On reflection, AG2R tactics were weak on this stage.

    Not much they could have done differently. Sky suckered them into chasing the break, because a potential stage win for Froome was nowhere near as important as potential bonus seconds for Bardet. They had to gamble on Bardet being able to ride for himself with no support in the last KMs.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    edited July 2017
    imatfaal wrote:
    wiggofan wrote:
    Regarding Chris, I don't think he's the climber he was 2 or 3 years ago. He was exceptional making it back after his mechanical on stage 15, but apart from that he hasn't looked that convincing to me, his attack on this stage failing and being dropped on stage 12, and never really looking like he would win a mountain stage this year.

    Looking further ahead, I hope I'm wrong because I'd like to see Chris win at least 5 TdFs, preferably more, but I have my doubts whether he will even be Sky's leader next year.

    I think Sky would love to have a 5 tour winner - so Chris will lead next year barring a collapse in form.

    On his performance - it should be remembered he and team has already hinted that he is going for Tour/Vuelta double. Thus you do enough to win - but do not risk completely emptying tank. To be honest I still do not think he will manage double - even though he has Wout back for Vuelta

    Who's gonna rival him at the Vuelta though?

    Quintana probably won't ride it and won't be in any shape if he does, Contador is past his best, Chaves still recovering, and can't see Uran or Bardet beating him. Nibali is the only threat, or am I missing someone?

    edit: I missed Dumoulin.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,648
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    On reflection, AG2R tactics were weak on this stage.

    Not much they could have done differently. Sky suckered them into chasing the break, because a potential stage win for Froome was nowhere near as important as potential bonus seconds for Bardet. They had to gamble on Bardet being able to ride for himself with no support in the last KMs.

    I'd have done it differently (quelle surprise).

    Nothing, then ambush around the time Kiwa was looking tired with every AG2R domesticate left, gassing it incredibly hard for a 1-1.5km leadout, and then just seeing what happens.

    Chris' ace was Landa so you needed to get him to do more work than necessary.
    _
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,535
    I can't see that Uran has done anything wrong, he's played his hand as well as possible. He knows he's got a TT close to Froome, but knows he can't really damage him on the mountains. He needed to stick to Froome and hope he had a jour sans or someone else broke him. Apart from that he needed to nick some bonus seconds here and there - which he did.

    Anyone thinking he should have had a big dig in the mountains is a fan of panache over winning - he'd have chucked it all away. As it is he's a Froome puncture/mech/crash away from winning this Tour.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 27,760
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    On reflection, AG2R tactics were weak on this stage.

    Not much they could have done differently. Sky suckered them into chasing the break, because a potential stage win for Froome was nowhere near as important as potential bonus seconds for Bardet. They had to gamble on Bardet being able to ride for himself with no support in the last KMs.

    I'd have done it differently (quelle surprise).

    Nothing, then ambush around the time Kiwa was looking tired with every AG2R domesticate left, gassing it incredibly hard for a 1-1.5km leadout, and then just seeing what happens.

    Chris' ace was Landa so you needed to get him to do more work than necessary.

    I just don't think they've got the riders to put those two in any trouble.
  • wiggofan
    wiggofan Posts: 30
    edited July 2017
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    /\ except Landa won't be there.
    I wasn't thinking of Landa. For instance, although he has been the model of loyalty to date, Thomas has also expressed he has Grand Tour ambitions himself, and not just the Giro, and he isn't getting any younger, and it would be interesting to see what would happen if he proved to be stronger than Chris in next year's Tour (assuming he's picked).

    Regarding Landa, he had to go. His position was untenable as long as Chris remained leader and if he wasn't going I certainly wouldn't trust him if I were Chris, and his very public (and highly unprofessional) post race spat showed he was not at all happy playing second fiddle
    No longer a Wiggo fan
  • Richj
    Richj Posts: 240
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    On reflection, AG2R tactics were weak on this stage.

    Not much they could have done differently. Sky suckered them into chasing the break, because a potential stage win for Froome was nowhere near as important as potential bonus seconds for Bardet. They had to gamble on Bardet being able to ride for himself with no support in the last KMs.

    I'd have done it differently (quelle surprise).

    Nothing, then ambush around the time Kiwa was looking tired with every AG2R domesticate left, gassing it incredibly hard for a 1-1.5km leadout, and then just seeing what happens.

    Chris' ace was Landa so you needed to get him to do more work than necessary.

    Agreed, whenever they did it Bardet needed to attack straight after Ag2R burned themselves out. When Ag2R hit the front Aru went out the back (as did Yates and a few others) as soon as Kiwa hit the front they got back on suggesting the pace dropped. Bardet had to go as his team finished smashing it else there was no point.

    I think they hit the front too early for him to do this or rode it too hard..... Sky paced it perfectly for themselves.
  • Richj
    Richj Posts: 240
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    On reflection, AG2R tactics were weak on this stage.

    Not much they could have done differently. Sky suckered them into chasing the break, because a potential stage win for Froome was nowhere near as important as potential bonus seconds for Bardet. They had to gamble on Bardet being able to ride for himself with no support in the last KMs.

    I'd have done it differently (quelle surprise).

    Nothing, then ambush around the time Kiwa was looking tired with every AG2R domesticate left, gassing it incredibly hard for a 1-1.5km leadout, and then just seeing what happens.

    Chris' ace was Landa so you needed to get him to do more work than necessary.

    I just don't think they've got the riders to put those two in any trouble.

    Maybe not to put Landa in trouble as he looks strong, but I felt Ag2R split it and that was Bardet's chance to go. He didn't and Sky dropped the pace and all his rivals recovered
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,535
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    On reflection, AG2R tactics were weak on this stage.

    Not much they could have done differently. Sky suckered them into chasing the break, because a potential stage win for Froome was nowhere near as important as potential bonus seconds for Bardet. They had to gamble on Bardet being able to ride for himself with no support in the last KMs.

    I'd have done it differently (quelle surprise).

    Nothing, then ambush around the time Kiwa was looking tired with every AG2R domesticate left, gassing it incredibly hard for a 1-1.5km leadout, and then just seeing what happens.

    Chris' ace was Landa so you needed to get him to do more work than necessary.

    I think you would have gambled and lost. Bardet may well have had the edge over Froome in the mountains, but it's marginal. I'll give you that Bardet was probably beaten in his head already, but the likelihood of being able to both put Froome into the red following wheels and have something to attack him with was slim.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • Lookyhere
    Lookyhere Posts: 987
    mfin wrote:
    Lookyhere wrote:
    Until there is a way to stop very strong teams dominating, instead of the riders, the TDF will be somewhat boring and predictable.

    But it's quite entertaining and exciting at times for something that's boring and predictable isn't it?

    It's not all about the GC.

    I don't agree with the panache thing, as it's a crap term. I'd agree there's been a lack of a standout performance by Froome, but if there had been a very clear one then it would be accompanied by a stack of people would be moaning that "the race is all over now", they wouldn't be going on about how many panaches he's just scored.

    Of course its exiting, its a bike race! but as individual races, for me, its slightly boring & predictable for the GC.

    Lets hope Sky dont really target the Vuelta.

Categories