Froome v Wiggins

bobmcstuff

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Nibali has won all 3 GTs - twice in the case of the Giro. He has also won a Monument, and has finished on Monument podiums twice. His palmares is unquestionably deeper and more rounded.

Only an idiot would try to dismiss his palmares and where to place him in the current peloton.

If you only watch the Tour...well...

Depends what you mean by better really doesnt it... Better palmares or better ability.

Personally think Froome is a better rider than Nibali, despite having a less well rounded palmares. I also don't think Froome really cares about how well rounded his palmares is.

But this isn't a discussion about what stirs a rider's soul (in addition to the huge wonga, obs)

I must have missed what the discussion was about then, the title implies it's about Froome and Wiggins - I just assumed it was way OT as usual...

Still think Froome is better at GTs than Nibali in terms of ability. What he chooses to do with that ability is another question.

Richmond Racer 2

OT? when I'm wanging on about tennis? How could you think that....

bobmcstuff

w00dster wrote:

Joey - I don't see the Tour as being the biggest and the hardest race that everyone wants to win.
Certain GC teams/riders have it as their main objective, but not all teams. I would also argue that it isn't the most difficult, without wanting to be contentious I'd say it was the easiest of the grand tours - but that's just my opinion. Easiest used very loosely as obviously it is a very difficult race.
If you were a patriotic Italian riding for an Italian team (not referring to anyone specifically) - do you think you would rather win the Giro or the Tour? Maybe I'm an old romantic but the Giro for me is the one that gets me the most excited. I also love how the Vuelta is just insanely difficult. The Tour has all of the history but it doesn't make it the best / biggest race. Just how I see things, really not trying to be argumentative.

I think that most of the riders would disagree with the part in bold. All of them talk about the pressure being greater, the speeds being higher, there being more tension etc etc. The Giro seems to subjectively often have the hardest parcours but that alone doesn't make it the hardest race.

I also think trying to dispute that it's the biggest race is a bit daft since it apparently takes over 60% of all media coverage of cycling and pretty much dominates coverage of cycling outside of the cycling media. Unless you're using some other definition of biggest.

I also get more excited for the Giro. I just think trying to suggest the Tour isn't the biggest prize in cycling is silly.

rick_chasey

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

It was all serve - boom - win point - trudge to other side of court

Boring as fook

Shorter grass then, innit.

Greatest serve in the history of the mens game - his first AND second serve. It was the topspin he was able to put on the ball, and the power as he turned his shoulder into the serve

Sure, all done on old, shorter, less bouncy, faster grass.

No way would a player like Goran be a genuine contender nowadays. Court is much slower.

Richmond Racer 2

^shure, I wouldnt argue that

rick_chasey

I mean, Richard Krijcek!!!

Richmond Racer 2

Make your mind up, Mr SW6!

above_the_cows

RichN95 wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Nibali is a great racer. The best. Bigly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0Db10odClg

Seen many things in cycling but this is still one of my top WTF moments

All it needs is this for true perfection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V44VniJrh8w

Here's a version of it with the Benny Hill music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuDsyfRMEoY

Uitstekend!

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Nibali has won all 3 GTs - twice in the case of the Giro. He has also won a Monument, and has finished on Monument podiums twice. His palmares is unquestionably deeper and more rounded.

Only an idiot would try to dismiss his palmares and where to place him in the current peloton.

If you only watch the Tour...well...

But he's a massive kn0bmoomin though we're all agreed on that right?

imatfaal

Above The Cows wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Nibali is a great racer. The best. Bigly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0Db10odClg

Seen many things in cycling but this is still one of my top WTF moments

All it needs is this for true perfection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V44VniJrh8w

Here's a version of it with the Benny Hill music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuDsyfRMEoY

Uitstekend!

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Nibali has won all 3 GTs - twice in the case of the Giro. He has also won a Monument, and has finished on Monument podiums twice. His palmares is unquestionably deeper and more rounded.

Only an idiot would try to dismiss his palmares and where to place him in the current peloton.

If you only watch the Tour...well...

But he's a massive kn0bmoomin though we're all agreed on that right?

This thread (in fact this whole tour) is elevated by learning such a great term of abuse - kn0bmoomin (and yes nibali is one)

imatfaal

RichN95 wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Nibali has won all 3 GTs - twice in the case of the Giro. He has also won a Monument, and has finished on Monument podiums twice. His palmares is unquestionably deeper and more rounded.

Only an idiot would try to dismiss his palmares and where to place him in the current peloton.

If you only watch the Tour...well...

Depends what you mean by better really doesnt it... Better palmares or better ability.

Personally think Froome is a better rider than Nibali, despite having a less well rounded palmares. I also don't think Froome really cares about how well rounded his palmares is.

In cricket no-one cares that Glenn McGrath couldn't bat and Brian Lara couldn't bowl. All-rounders are all well and good, but it's better to be the absolute best at one thing (IMO).

Lara is one of the greatest batsman, McGrath bowler - but the greatest cricketers are Sir Gary Sobers, Sir Ian Botham, Sir Richard Hadlee, Kapil Dev (who should be a knight )... All IMO of course

Sir Don Bradman was just so good that he is the greatest cricketer - and is thus the exception which proves the rule

above_the_cows

imatfaal wrote:

This thread (in fact this whole tour) is elevated by learning such a great term of abuse - kn0bmoomin (and yes nibali is one)

I cannot claim it as my own. Kn0bmoomin even has a twitter account.

RichN95.

imatfaal wrote:

Lara is one of the greatest batsman, McGrath bowler - but the greatest cricketers are Sir Gary Sobers, Sir Ian Botham, Sir Richard Hadlee, Kapil Dev (who should be a knight )... All IMO of course

On the day before Lara made 375 against England, the highest test score was held by Sobers and the three most prolific wicket takers of all time were Dev, Hadlee and Botham. They were all the best at something.
Jacques Kallis never seems to be put alongside Tendulkar, Ponting, Warne, McGrath and Murali in the cricket Pantheon (not sure why)

Richmond Racer 2

His Nibz is a knobmoomin but a talented one

And he's great at trolling his rivals, which is funny

above_the_cows

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

His Nibz is a knobmoomin but a talented one

And he's great at trolling his rivals, which is funny

Ha knobmoomin gets past the swear filter.

Pross

M.R.M. wrote:

Makes me laugh every time. Would have loved to hear the reaction of the commentators had they seen it while it was happening.

Kirby: 'All these cars in the race are a danger to the riders. Look, Nibali (known as the Shark of Messina) has taken exception to them and is hanging onto the window whilst venting his displeasure'

salsiccia1

Hat

wombly_knees

RichN95 wrote:

imatfaal wrote:

Lara is one of the greatest batsman, McGrath bowler - but the greatest cricketers are Sir Gary Sobers, Sir Ian Botham, Sir Richard Hadlee, Kapil Dev (who should be a knight )... All IMO of course

On the day before Lara made 375 against England, the highest test score was held by Sobers and the three most prolific wicket takers of all time were Dev, Hadlee and Botham. They were all the best at something.
Jacques Kallis never seems to be put alongside Tendulkar, Ponting, Warne, McGrath and Murali in the cricket Pantheon (not sure why)

Firstly, no way should Kapil be knighted. He's an Indian. And I'd go ballistic if he did. Kapil Dev represents more than just his stats. He was the symbol for players who didn't come from Mumbai, or from a privileged background.

Now that I've got that out of the way... The people who don't rate Kallis alongside Tendulkar and Ponting are wrong (usually a banal numbnut like Scyld Berry). The only thing he lacked in comparison to them was attacking (Tendulkar lost this after his operations in the early 2000s). He could- held the record for fastest fifty in tests- but didn't in the good Waugh/Barrington mould. He was never found out (Lara vs Flintoff) and his decline was not much (unlike Tendulkar and Ponting who stunk up their teams for too long). Not to mention, he was a good bowler and fantastic slip fielder.

Won't go into more detail lest I become Scyld Berry.

rick_chasey

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

His Nibz is a knobmoomin but a talented one

And he's great at trolling his rivals, which is funny

No more knobbish than any other big rider no?

Or do you have other information?

salsiccia1

wombly knees wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

imatfaal wrote:

Lara is one of the greatest batsman, McGrath bowler - but the greatest cricketers are Sir Gary Sobers, Sir Ian Botham, Sir Richard Hadlee, Kapil Dev (who should be a knight )... All IMO of course

On the day before Lara made 375 against England, the highest test score was held by Sobers and the three most prolific wicket takers of all time were Dev, Hadlee and Botham. They were all the best at something.
Jacques Kallis never seems to be put alongside Tendulkar, Ponting, Warne, McGrath and Murali in the cricket Pantheon (not sure why)

Firstly, no way should Kapil be knighted. He's an Indian. And I'd go ballistic if he did. Kapil Dev represents more than just his stats. He was the symbol for players who didn't come from Mumbai, or from a privileged background.

Now that I've got that out of the way... The people who don't rate Kallis alongside Tendulkar and Ponting are wrong (usually a banal numbnut like Scyld Berry). The only thing he lacked in comparison to them was attacking (Tendulkar lost this after his operations in the early 2000s). He could- held the record for fastest fifty in tests- but didn't in the good Waugh/Barrington mould. He was never found out (Lara vs Flintoff) and his decline was not much (unlike Tendulkar and Ponting who stunk up their teams for too long). Not to mention, he was a good bowler and fantastic slip fielder.

Won't go into more detail lest I become Scyld Berry.

Part of it with Kallis is/was an image problem. He was widely perceived as not being the sharpest tool in the box, and playing on an SA team that had a tendency to choke didn't help. That and the hair transplant.

joey54321

Salsiccia1 wrote:

wombly knees wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

imatfaal wrote:

Lara is one of the greatest batsman, McGrath bowler - but the greatest cricketers are Sir Gary Sobers, Sir Ian Botham, Sir Richard Hadlee, Kapil Dev (who should be a knight )... All IMO of course

On the day before Lara made 375 against England, the highest test score was held by Sobers and the three most prolific wicket takers of all time were Dev, Hadlee and Botham. They were all the best at something.
Jacques Kallis never seems to be put alongside Tendulkar, Ponting, Warne, McGrath and Murali in the cricket Pantheon (not sure why)

Firstly, no way should Kapil be knighted. He's an Indian. And I'd go ballistic if he did. Kapil Dev represents more than just his stats. He was the symbol for players who didn't come from Mumbai, or from a privileged background.

Now that I've got that out of the way... The people who don't rate Kallis alongside Tendulkar and Ponting are wrong (usually a banal numbnut like Scyld Berry). The only thing he lacked in comparison to them was attacking (Tendulkar lost this after his operations in the early 2000s). He could- held the record for fastest fifty in tests- but didn't in the good Waugh/Barrington mould. He was never found out (Lara vs Flintoff) and his decline was not much (unlike Tendulkar and Ponting who stunk up their teams for too long). Not to mention, he was a good bowler and fantastic slip fielder.

Won't go into more detail lest I become Scyld Berry.

Part of it with Kallis is/was an image problem. He was widely perceived as not being the sharpest tool in the box, and playing on an SA team that had a tendency to choke didn't help. That and the hair transplant.

This is perhaps one of the most off topic threads I've seen

wombly_knees

Yeah, not his finest moment. But Warne.... He even looks like a cheap doll these days. Plastic skin with overtly white teethteeth and a stupid grin that you want to slap out of his face

I also think nationality matters. Most of the writers are Indian, Australian or English. Our players get hyped up faster and put down faster too.

An example, IMO, is Graeme Smith. Fantastic opener and a brilliant fourth innings record where most batsmen average 20s and 30s. Never talked of to the level other openers have been. I'd have him ahead of cook because of Cook's multiple lean spells.

Similarly, Sangakkara and Younis had to practically pull up trees to be recognised as elite. For me non-keeping Sanga is the best batsman post 2000.

wombly_knees

joey54321 wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

wombly knees wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

imatfaal wrote:

Lara is one of the greatest batsman, McGrath bowler - but the greatest cricketers are Sir Gary Sobers, Sir Ian Botham, Sir Richard Hadlee, Kapil Dev (who should be a knight )... All IMO of course

On the day before Lara made 375 against England, the highest test score was held by Sobers and the three most prolific wicket takers of all time were Dev, Hadlee and Botham. They were all the best at something.
Jacques Kallis never seems to be put alongside Tendulkar, Ponting, Warne, McGrath and Murali in the cricket Pantheon (not sure why)

Firstly, no way should Kapil be knighted. He's an Indian. And I'd go ballistic if he did. Kapil Dev represents more than just his stats. He was the symbol for players who didn't come from Mumbai, or from a privileged background.

Now that I've got that out of the way... The people who don't rate Kallis alongside Tendulkar and Ponting are wrong (usually a banal numbnut like Scyld Berry). The only thing he lacked in comparison to them was attacking (Tendulkar lost this after his operations in the early 2000s). He could- held the record for fastest fifty in tests- but didn't in the good Waugh/Barrington mould. He was never found out (Lara vs Flintoff) and his decline was not much (unlike Tendulkar and Ponting who stunk up their teams for too long). Not to mention, he was a good bowler and fantastic slip fielder.

Won't go into more detail lest I become Scyld Berry.

Part of it with Kallis is/was an image problem. He was widely perceived as not being the sharpest tool in the box, and playing on an SA team that had a tendency to choke didn't help. That and the hair transplant.

This is perhaps one of the most off topic threads I've seen

To be fair, even the forum servers would be bored by Froome vs Wiggins topics by now

salsiccia1

wombly knees wrote:

joey54321 wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

wombly knees wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

imatfaal wrote:

Lara is one of the greatest batsman, McGrath bowler - but the greatest cricketers are Sir Gary Sobers, Sir Ian Botham, Sir Richard Hadlee, Kapil Dev (who should be a knight )... All IMO of course

On the day before Lara made 375 against England, the highest test score was held by Sobers and the three most prolific wicket takers of all time were Dev, Hadlee and Botham. They were all the best at something.
Jacques Kallis never seems to be put alongside Tendulkar, Ponting, Warne, McGrath and Murali in the cricket Pantheon (not sure why)

Firstly, no way should Kapil be knighted. He's an Indian. And I'd go ballistic if he did. Kapil Dev represents more than just his stats. He was the symbol for players who didn't come from Mumbai, or from a privileged background.

Now that I've got that out of the way... The people who don't rate Kallis alongside Tendulkar and Ponting are wrong (usually a banal numbnut like Scyld Berry). The only thing he lacked in comparison to them was attacking (Tendulkar lost this after his operations in the early 2000s). He could- held the record for fastest fifty in tests- but didn't in the good Waugh/Barrington mould. He was never found out (Lara vs Flintoff) and his decline was not much (unlike Tendulkar and Ponting who stunk up their teams for too long). Not to mention, he was a good bowler and fantastic slip fielder.

Won't go into more detail lest I become Scyld Berry.

Part of it with Kallis is/was an image problem. He was widely perceived as not being the sharpest tool in the box, and playing on an SA team that had a tendency to choke didn't help. That and the hair transplant.

This is perhaps one of the most off topic threads I've seen

To be fair, even the forum servers would be bored by Froome vs Wiggins topics by now

But, in a funny sort of way, it is on topic: perception and public image means people draw their own conclusions, especially amongst journalists with their own biases, often in contradiction of fact or actual merit of the individual.

"The truth is no longer uncovered, it is now decided" or something like that.

No_Ta_Doctor

Wiggins would definitely have the edge over Froome in one day cricket. And any match at The Oval.

rick_chasey

No tA Doctor wrote:

Wiggins would definitely have the edge over Froome in one day cricket. And any match at The Oval.

That is not a positive.

And I'm not so sure. Froome is public school no?

Kids from Kilburn...bleugh.

Richmond Racer 2

No tA Doctor wrote:

Wiggins would definitely have the edge over Froome in one day cricket. And any match at The Oval.

Very good very good

No_Ta_Doctor

Sorry, it was by no means a classic post. The cricket stuff seemed to be going round in circles .

rick_chasey

*Wooosh*

Over my head.

Richmond Racer 2

Rick Chasey wrote:

*Wooosh*

Over my head.

That's the problem with rest days

professeur

I thought this was a tennis thread - what's with all the cricket chat?