Whose fault...? Discuss
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Dyrlac wrote:I go through that junction every day, a nightmare piece of road engineering. No ASL, noticeably uphill and very narrow on the approach, with an ever-present traffic queues which takes at least 2-3 light sequences to clear. The end result is that *every*single*cyclist* filters up to the rarely used left turn lane to go straight (between 730 and 930, there will always be at least 5, and often as many as 20 cyclists waiting there). This is one of the few situations where an ASL box would actually be useful, but the local council hates painting its streets.
ce.
Yes filtering up the left is one thing but they've got to have the awareness to know when to hang back behind the first vehicle - when it's an HGV, bus etc.
Looking at it it does make the case for banning HGVs during certain hours and/or much better cycle provision though. I don't wven like driving in central London If I'm using a sat nav as it's hard to be decisive which you have to be in that traffic if you aren't sure which lane you should be in.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
DeVlaeminck wrote:
Yes filtering up the left is one thing but they've got to have the awareness to know when to hang back behind the first vehicle - when it's an HGV, bus etc.
There is no room to hang back behind the first vehicle as you approach the junction: this is not a free flowing street in the morning, the motor traffic queues for at least 250 metres (and often longer). So unless you want to sit at the back of that queue for 2-3 light cycles, you filter all the way up and park yourself in the left turn lane (or in the pedestrian crossing in front of the motor traffic: although the Met once had a copper there to stop people doing that for a week). Not really defending the cyclist's road handling/situational awareness here, but this particular junction really is a piece of work.DeVlaeminck wrote:
Looking at it it does make the case for banning HGVs during certain hours and/or much better cycle provision though.
LOL.
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So is it the councils fault? It seems it is badly designed with no room for cyclists which if the council addressed it, it could be better.0
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Dyrlac wrote:The lorry driver was taking the p*ss though, unfathomable that he would not have known plenty of folk were in his blind spot (having seen scores of cyclists coming through as he sat on the approach to the junction).
The driver could have rightly expected all the cyclists to turn left, after all, they were in the left only lane.0 -
I'm wary of those left turn lanes anyway - I'd be cautious as hell with an HGV around. I guess the message about their blind spots hasn't got round fully yet.0
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joe2008 wrote:Dyrlac wrote:The lorry driver was taking the p*ss though, unfathomable that he would not have known plenty of folk were in his blind spot (having seen scores of cyclists coming through as he sat on the approach to the junction).
The driver could have rightly expected all the cyclists to turn left, after all, they were in the left only lane.
No. That would be wilful blindness on the part of the driver to fail to observe how people were actually using the road. He would have had plenty of opportunity to see how the junction operated in practice just from his time in the queue. Someone who drives professionally should be held to a higher standard of awareness, and the more I think about it and watch the video, the more I'm convinced the driver knew exactly what he was doing.TheFD wrote:So is it the councils fault? It seems it is badly designed with no room for cyclists which if the council addressed it, it could be better.
Yes, but they won't. RBoK&C is one of the most anti-cycling local authorities in the country, and is a prime reason why the West London cycle superhighway schemes can't seem to get off the ground. (They have objected to blue painted cycle lanes because the colour clashed with the street scene). And in any event, the council is somewhat pre-occupied with the results of their incompetence in other areas.Fenix wrote:I'm wary of those left turn lanes anyway - I'd be cautious as hell with an HGV around. I guess the message about their blind spots hasn't got round fully yet.
Yeah, no doubt the cyclist cocked up royally (I suspect he just assumed the lorry would drift right, as they usually do when they realise a commuter peloton has formed up in the left side of the road). I sprint like hell off the lights at that junction, but there is more at play here.0 -
Dyrlac wrote:
There is no room to hang back behind the first vehicle as you approach the junction: this is not a free flowing street in the morning, the motor traffic queues for at least 250 metres (and often longer). So unless you want to sit at the back of that queue for 2-3 light cycles, you filter all the way up and park yourself in the left turn lane (or in the pedestrian crossing in front of the motor traffic: although the Met once had a copper there to stop people doing that for a week). Not really defending the cyclist's road handling/situational awareness here, but this particular junction really is a piece of work.
LOL.
Unbelievable ...so basically if you don't wanna wait your turn at a busy junction you just completely disregard the highway code instead, putting yourself at risk and giving drivers around you a bunch of idiots to look out for who are riding in a moronic fashion. All because of impatience. The answer is to WAIT your turn at the junction and obey the highway code.0 -
Dyrlac wrote:No. That would be wilful blindness on the part of the driver to fail to observe how IDIOTS were actually using the road. He would have had plenty of opportunity to see how the junction operated in practice just from his time in the queue. Someone who drives professionally should be held to a higher standard of awareness, and the more I think about it and watch the video, the more I'm convinced the driver knew exactly what he was doing.
Fixed that for you.
Sorry, but the driver is not going to use his vehicle as a weapon as you seem to imply, that's just stupid thinking.0 -
Totally. And to think cyclists get angry with impatient drivers.mfin wrote:Dyrlac wrote:
There is no room to hang back behind the first vehicle as you approach the junction: this is not a free flowing street in the morning, the motor traffic queues for at least 250 metres (and often longer). So unless you want to sit at the back of that queue for 2-3 light cycles, you filter all the way up and park yourself in the left turn lane (or in the pedestrian crossing in front of the motor traffic: although the Met once had a copper there to stop people doing that for a week). Not really defending the cyclist's road handling/situational awareness here, but this particular junction really is a piece of work.
LOL.
Unbelievable ...so basically if you don't wanna wait your turn at a busy junction you just completely disregard the highway code instead, putting yourself at risk and giving drivers around you a bunch of idiots to look out for who are riding in a moronic fashion. All because of impatience. The answer is to WAIT your turn at the junction and obey the highway code.
Impatient drivers are dangerous, impatient cyclists are suicidal.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Cyclist at fault for sure. Also, before getting to the lights all the cyclists were undertaking a line of slow moving cars, another potential for an accident. Maybe this is the "done thing' in London but seems stupid to me. So glad I live out in the sticks...0
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Cyclists fault 100%. I don't buy "the lorry driver was teaching him a lesson one bit."
Last week I was stopped at a red light in my car, at the front of the cue. My indicator was on to turn LEFT.
Lights change, and off I go, luckily pretty slowly. As I started to turn LEFT, a cyclist in full club kit undertook me and carried on straight through the junction! I probably missed him by inches! :shock:
If I had knocked him off, he may have been on here asking how to get compo, and with no camera in my car, it would have been his word against mine. Would someone say I was "teaching him a lesson?"
I've had enough near misses to know that many motorists are thick as f... , but if you ride like a d*ck, you may eventually get found out.
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Oh for god's sake what's that anecdote got to do with anything?Pituophis wrote:Cyclists fault 100%. I don't buy "the lorry driver was teaching him a lesson one bit."
Last week I was stopped at a red light in my car, at the front of the cue. My indicator was on to turn LEFT.
Lights change, and off I go, luckily pretty slowly. As I started to turn LEFT, a cyclist in full club kit undertook me and carried on straight through the junction! I probably missed him by inches! :shock:
If I had knocked him off, he may have been on here asking how to get compo, and with no camera in my car, it would have been his word against mine. Would someone say I was "teaching him a lesson?"
I've had enough near misses to know that many motorists are thick as f... , but if you ride like a d*ck, you may eventually get found out.0 -
Cyclist. 100%.
The lorry driver seems to back off slightly to allow the first crowd space, but the guy he hit was completely in his blind spot (right hand drive lorry, so the driver would have a very restricted view). Even though they could see the gap was closing the cyclist that was hit and the guy with the camera continued to ride into a narrowing gap.
Can't believe there are people saying the driver did it deliberately to teach him a lesson. You don't bump people with a 40T artic.
The attitude of the cyclist makes me really angry. 'We've got you on camera' as if that makes him right!0 -
I don't think he deliberately hit him. I think he intended to "buzz" him.Herb71 wrote:Cyclist. 100%.
The lorry driver seems to back off slightly to allow the first crowd space, but the guy he hit was completely in his blind spot (right hand drive lorry, so the driver would have a very restricted view). Even though they could see the gap was closing the cyclist that was hit and the guy with the camera continued to ride into a narrowing gap.
Can't believe there are people saying the driver did it deliberately to teach him a lesson. You don't bump people with a 40T artic.
The attitude of the cyclist makes me really angry. 'We've got you on camera' as if that makes him right!
Perhaps not. I'm just sure he would have been able to see the guy in red.... but then perhaps its unfair to expect the driver to count all the buzzy-bees and realise that red guy had dropped back in to blind spot. I can be persuaded that I'm misreading the driver's actions.
Kind of a shame that neither the camera man nor the guy who got hit have come on here. It would be interesting to get their take now they've had time to reflect.
Seems to be a consensus that none of us know how we'd have behaved because none of us would have been that stupid in the first place. There's a left turn/straight turn queue like that at the end of Lothian Road in Edinburgh. Its routine to filter between the let lane and straight on lane, to get to the front of the traffic going straight on. It is a funnel for busses and tour coaches. If there is a bus at the front of the queue and no space to get in front, I just wait behind, because being next to the bus feels terribly unsafe. I don't disagree with the collective shock that none of those cyclists had the same spidey sense. Too many silly commuter racers.0 -
So you've never had a punishment pass. Do you believe they happen? I've had a guy in a lorry drive at me and swing his door at my head. I turned around as I heard him pull forward and had to duck. I got out of the way by going on the pavement and he mounted the pavement to drive at me. Luckily I hid by a tree. My crime in his mind was going to the front of the traffic at a set of lights.joe2008 wrote:Sorry, but the driver is not going to use his vehicle as a weapon as you seem to imply, that's just stupid thinking.
With respect to those saying people should wait in line at traffic lights. Why do you think so many people cycle to work in London? Can you imagine how long it would take to get to work if everybody sat in line at traffic lights.
Yes, the cyclists do bear a fair chunk of the responsibility because they are indeed in the wrong lane. If they choose to do that they should do so with more awareness of the traffic around them and not with any sense of entitlement. The lorry driver may not have intended to actually hit the bloke but he certainly set out to prove a point and make a punishment pass. As First Aspect has said many times, they are both to blame and neither come out of that looking good. Some people need to remember that cyclists are soft and squishy. Some of the people that need to remember that are cyclists, some are drivers. Lets all be careful out there.0 -
First Aspect wrote:
Oh for god's sake what's that anecdote got to do with anything?Pituophis wrote:Cyclists fault 100%. I don't buy "the lorry driver was teaching him a lesson one bit."
Last week I was stopped at a red light in my car, at the front of the cue. My indicator was on to turn LEFT.
Lights change, and off I go, luckily pretty slowly. As I started to turn LEFT, a cyclist in full club kit undertook me and carried on straight through the junction! I probably missed him by inches! :shock:
If I had knocked him off, he may have been on here asking how to get compo, and with no camera in my car, it would have been his word against mine. Would someone say I was "teaching him a lesson?"
I've had enough near misses to know that many motorists are thick as f... , but if you ride like a d*ck, you may eventually get found out.
The cyclists were all in the wrong.
As a percentage, cyclists are no better or worse than motorists, and each camp has its irresponsible morons.
Suggesting that the driver might be prepared to kill a cyclist to "teach them a lesson" sounds ever so slightly biased. :roll:0 -
Without a shadow of a doubt.Pituophis wrote:As a percentage, cyclists are no better or worse than motorists, and each camp has its irresponsible morons.
I don't think for a minute he intended to kill anyone, I do think he intended to give them a fright and misjudged it.Pituophis wrote:Suggesting that the driver might be prepared to kill a cyclist to "teach them a lesson" sounds ever so slightly biased. :roll:
Ultimately, as cyclists we are the squishy ones and need to look out for ourselves regardless of right or wrong. Whilst the truck driver is wrong in his actions, as a cyclist you shouldn't put yourself in that position. I completely understand why people ride down the left. But having done so they need to be careful.0 -
Veronese68 wrote:I completely understand why people ride down the left. But having done so they need to be careful.
I don't understand why they rode down the left, it's stupid, even more so with an arctic next to you.0 -
Cyclist 100% at fault.
Cyclist wanted to save time so cut up the traffic instead of waiting in the proper lane. Its impossible to defend his actions whichever way you look at it. He took a risk which I have no doubt he knew was a risk, but did it anyway. He nearly paid for it with his life and so did the driver who would have to live with a fatality on his conscience.
Cyclists like that really get my goat - ride properly or walk but either way stop making the rest of us look like inconsiderate clowns.0 -
You are clearly hard of reading.Suggesting that the driver might be prepared to kill a cyclist to "teach them a lesson" sounds ever so slightly biased. :roll:0 -
Veronese68 wrote:With respect to those saying people should wait in line at traffic lights. Why do you think so many people cycle to work in London? Can you imagine how long it would take to get to work if everybody sat in line at traffic lights.
When filtering it's very much your responsibility maintain safe behaviour for yourself and those around you, you are the overtaking vehicle and the onus is on you. What's happened at this junction is a perfect example of what is relatively safe for a couple of cyclists to do being turned into a clusterfuck of a situation by more and more people piling into the left turn lane.
I don't cycle that much in busy city traffic like that, but I do ride a motorbike in it. If there is another bike in front of me I hang back between the car they're next to and the one behind it. The reason being that I have no idea how quickly the other bike is going to get off at the lights and if I can't get in front of the lead vehicle I'm in danger of getting pinned between 2 cars.
What these guys did was pure lunacy, they were relying on the truck driver waiting and letting them all in rather than thinking "hang on a minute, there's no way in hell we're all getting ahead of him before he's moving". It's herd mentality at its worst.0 -
Oh come on, get real. We all filter.joe2008 wrote:Veronese68 wrote:I completely understand why people ride down the left. But having done so they need to be careful.
I don't understand why they rode down the left, it's stupid, even more so with an arctic next to you.
The first few cyclists could get in front, at least in the correct lane. Strictly ahead of the stop line no doubt but I will happily shout down anyone who claims they've never done it.
The idiocy is that the later arrivals didn't sit between vehicles slightly further back.0 -
First Aspect wrote:joe2008 wrote:The idiocy is that the later arrivals didn't sit between vehicles slightly further back.
even stopped where they were, when the lights went green the sensible thing would have to been to cycle slowly and cut in BEHIND the Artic and infront of the car that would have been able to see them.
Its London, that road is wide enough to fit a car and a bike side by side all be it not the recommended distance apart, it would still be acceptable-ish .. certainly compared to assuming a lorry is going to see you0 -
The cyclist was not filtering. If he filtered he should do so without jumping a queue of traffic by going down one lane (on the left), staying in that lane then turning the right hand lane into two road users side by side. In the process of his lane swapping/jumping actions he cut across a busy junction in moving traffic whilst competing with a properly placed lorry. Madness but not comparable to filtering in its proper or legitimate sense. In fact I cannot see much, if anything, he did right.0
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How is it any worse than filtering when the other lane is for oncoming traffic? I think you are making an arbitrary distinction. Notionally, were the traffic flowing freely the cyclists would be riding near the kerb and at some stage indicating to join the rh lane. By filtering to the front they are leaving that to the last second and relying on finding space. That's all.Marvinman wrote:The cyclist was not filtering. If he filtered he should do so without jumping a queue of traffic by going down one lane (on the left), staying in that lane then turning the right hand lane into two road users side by side. In the process of his lane swapping/jumping actions he cut across a busy junction in moving traffic whilst competing with a properly placed lorry. Madness but not comparable to filtering in its proper or legitimate sense. In fact I cannot see much, if anything, he did right.
It's clear that none of them indicated to be let in and yes absolutely you should wait for the huge vehicle to pass first rather than hurl yourself under it.
However if a car found itself in the wrong lane and tried to go straight on and merge right, and if the hgv had an avoidable collision because the car strictly shouldn't have been there, would you still be saying that there was 0% liability on the hgv?
I maintain that the cyclists stupidity does not mean that all bets are off, as seems to be the general view.
I'd like to think that I have some latitude for making a mistake, because as much as I try to avoid them, mistakes and misnudgements do happen. If we all went around being hard nosed about it, there would be a lot more accidents.0 -
I agree with you on some aspects FA, we all do things like that. There should be a box for cyclists at the front, but because there isn't cyclists use the left lane to get to the front. I think the fact the guy in red kept plowing on when there was an arctic coming was his error. He should of dropped back and let it go. To use the excuse that this is London and this is what we do is daft.First Aspect wrote:I maintain that the cyclists stupidity does not mean that all bets are off, as seems to be the general view.0 -
We needed a poll on this I think.0
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Regarding filtering, giving way etc, my general rule (for me) is I'd rather be delayed than dead! So, although it can be frustrating there are times I stop, pull over etc to let cars pass. Due to where I live most potential close calls tend to come in the narrow single lane back roads around where I live and ride. It is frustrating to be flying down a quiet lane to see a car approaching which I cannot rely on to ease over enough to let me pass so if necessary I will slow right down or even stop. Tractors especially are a bit of a bane around here but again, better delayed than dead.
I realise cycling in a busy city is 1000x more busy but ultimately same rules apply. A minor scrape in a car could be catastrophic for a cyclist.0 -
First Aspect wrote:However if a car found itself in the wrong lane and tried to go straight on and merge right, and if the hgv had an avoidable collision because the car strictly shouldn't have been there, would you still be saying that there was 0% liability on the hgv?
If the HGV driver didn't know about it being there until he heard the noise of his truck hitting the car, then yes.0 -
They were in the wrong lane and if that were me I would be behind the truck.
Its a bit of an optical illusion though - because what you think you see is the cyclists being squeezed from the side as the lorry goes past him. But actually its pretty much the front of the lorry that hit the cyclist.0
