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Maybe we are not doomed after all

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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 56,788 Lives Here
    Yup fair.
  • pinnopinno Posts: 42,523
    It should be sea worthy. If this was a passenger ship where people were injured, it would be a different ball game.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • john80john80 Posts: 2,322
    pinno said:
    It is all a bit like claiming you are going to put a sprinkler system into a high rise with such deficient electrical wiring that it is odds on to burn down before you get round to fitting the sprinkler system. By 2060 their will be no ice, higher sea levels and multiple wars as people mass exodus from places that can't sustain life anymore. No western society will be immune from the affects of climate change.
  • Interesting to hear about Tesla's planned production of 46mm80mm batteries. Tabless, which speeds up production/consequential cost and a 16% increase in efficiency power/weight.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 24,580 Lives Here
    Hydrogen could be very good, but have they worked out a better way of getting at it? The last I heard the cheapest way was to extract it from fossil fuels. So whilst great in use, the overall impact isn't great until that is fixed.
  • Several electrochemical processes in industry, such as the production of chlorine, produce hydrogen as a “waste” or by- product . This by-product is a very clean A-Grade product that is very well suited for fuel cell vehicles and applications. The scale of these industrial sites is usually very large, resulting in high volumes of hydrogen.


    https://www.fuelcellbuses.eu/wiki/concept-hydrogen-refueling-station/product-hydrogen-industry

    This is probably the best way as a by product of other useful industrial chemicals.

  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 13,770
    There's lots of different types of hydrogen:
    - brown hydrogen made from coal
    - grey hydrogen made from natural gas
    - blue hydrogen made from natural gas, but with carbon capture and storage
    - green hydrogen made from electrolysis using renewable energy.

    The long term goal is for more green hydrogen. Consider the possibility of deserts covered in solar panels to make it - this was the vision of Australia's former chief scientist. At the moment, electrolysers are expensive, but with mass production they will only get cheaper.

    Unlike battery powered vehicles, there needs to be both the adoption of hydrogen vehicles and the creation of a supply. The government is aiming to help the supply.

    I don't mind that much if the hydrogen supply is boosted for now with either blue or grey provided the long term vision is green. It's the same argument as using an electric car - the energy may have been created by coal now, but long term it should be green.

    My expectation is that battery powered will win the small vehicles market and hydrogen will win the large or continuously used vehicles market.





  • ProssPross Posts: 29,086
    edited September 2020
    We've worked on several projects like this recently https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-53178463 and similar ones that use methane from landfill sites in the same way. They seem beneficial both in using waste energy to provide power and in making use of land that isn't suitable for normal development purposes to produce food.
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,086

    There's lots of different types of hydrogen:
    - brown hydrogen made from coal
    - grey hydrogen made from natural gas
    - blue hydrogen made from natural gas, but with carbon capture and storage
    - green hydrogen made from electrolysis using renewable energy.

    The long term goal is for more green hydrogen. Consider the possibility of deserts covered in solar panels to make it - this was the vision of Australia's former chief scientist. At the moment, electrolysers are expensive, but with mass production they will only get cheaper.

    Unlike battery powered vehicles, there needs to be both the adoption of hydrogen vehicles and the creation of a supply. The government is aiming to help the supply.

    I don't mind that much if the hydrogen supply is boosted for now with either blue or grey provided the long term vision is green. It's the same argument as using an electric car - the energy may have been created by coal now, but long term it should be green.

    My expectation is that battery powered will win the small vehicles market and hydrogen will win the large or continuously used vehicles market.





    I suspect one of the issues with hydrogen though is that it is perceived by many laypeople as dangerous. We probably all saw experiments in chemistry lessons that were basically explosions (I wonder if schools are still allowed to do them?) and I think that is an impression many will have in their head when they hear talk of hydrogen fuel cells.
  • focuszing723focuszing723 Posts: 2,506
    edited September 2020
    Yeah that's great forward thinking and good to get the benefits from something otherwise wasted.

    A couple of things I like about hybrid/electric cars. The energy lost due to braking helps recharge the batteries, also there is less wear on the brakes as a result so less maintenance. Brushless electric motors are very reliable too, just bearing to wear really.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 24,580 Lives Here
    Thanks all, very informative. I wasn't intending to put a downer on hydrogen, i was just hoping for the kind of things you've highlighted, although that link doesn't seem to work Pross. It's great that we are looking at viable alternatives and the infrastructure to go with it. I probably should have Googled rather than regurgutating something i heard a few years back.
    Agree with public perception of hydrogen, many people will think of the Hindenberg when hydrogen as fuel is mentioned.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 13,770
    Pross said:

    There's lots of different types of hydrogen:
    - brown hydrogen made from coal
    - grey hydrogen made from natural gas
    - blue hydrogen made from natural gas, but with carbon capture and storage
    - green hydrogen made from electrolysis using renewable energy.

    The long term goal is for more green hydrogen. Consider the possibility of deserts covered in solar panels to make it - this was the vision of Australia's former chief scientist. At the moment, electrolysers are expensive, but with mass production they will only get cheaper.

    Unlike battery powered vehicles, there needs to be both the adoption of hydrogen vehicles and the creation of a supply. The government is aiming to help the supply.

    I don't mind that much if the hydrogen supply is boosted for now with either blue or grey provided the long term vision is green. It's the same argument as using an electric car - the energy may have been created by coal now, but long term it should be green.

    My expectation is that battery powered will win the small vehicles market and hydrogen will win the large or continuously used vehicles market.





    I suspect one of the issues with hydrogen though is that it is perceived by many laypeople as dangerous. We probably all saw experiments in chemistry lessons that were basically explosions (I wonder if schools are still allowed to do them?) and I think that is an impression many will have in their head when they hear talk of hydrogen fuel cells.
    Once it doesn't blow up for a while, people will forget about it. Was it Brooklyn Bridge where they demonstrated elephants could cross it?
  • lesfirthlesfirth Posts: 1,196
    I have just watched the hydrogen train on BBC news and I do not know who is trying to con the viewers.
    The use of hydrogen is very clean at the point of use. However all the hydrogen on earth is combined with something else. It is impossible to separate it without using energy. All hydrogen use does is create a bigger problem somewhere else.
    The tree huggers will say that we can use renewables to make the hydrogen. At this moment on this windy day, renewables are generating 30% of our electricity. A new nuclear power station on Anglesey is not going to happen.
    Unless we can have deserts covered in solar panels providing the energy required and tankers moving the hydrogen around the world ,along with carbon capture, I think we are all doomed.
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 6,800
    lesfirth said:

    I have just watched the hydrogen train on BBC news and I do not know who is trying to con the viewers.
    The use of hydrogen is very clean at the point of use. However all the hydrogen on earth is combined with something else. It is impossible to separate it without using energy. All hydrogen use does is create a bigger problem somewhere else.
    The tree huggers will say that we can use renewables to make the hydrogen. At this moment on this windy day, renewables are generating 30% of our electricity. A new nuclear power station on Anglesey is not going to happen.
    Unless we can have deserts covered in solar panels providing the energy required and tankers moving the hydrogen around the world ,along with carbon capture, I think we are all doomed.

    I believe that, in the year to date, renewables have provided more energy to the UK grid than non-renewables?
    Felt F1 2014
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  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 13,770
    lesfirth said:

    I have just watched the hydrogen train on BBC news and I do not know who is trying to con the viewers.
    The use of hydrogen is very clean at the point of use. However all the hydrogen on earth is combined with something else. It is impossible to separate it without using energy. All hydrogen use does is create a bigger problem somewhere else.
    The tree huggers will say that we can use renewables to make the hydrogen. At this moment on this windy day, renewables are generating 30% of our electricity. A new nuclear power station on Anglesey is not going to happen.
    Unless we can have deserts covered in solar panels providing the energy required and tankers moving the hydrogen around the world ,along with carbon capture, I think we are all doomed.

    Have you considered offshore wind -> hydrogen -> tanker? No need for the transmission cable then. I think read recently that losses were smaller too.

    As I have said before, in 2010 I was very sceptical about the 2020 targets. I'm now a firm believer that it is all achievable. Renewables are now the cheapest way to generate electricity which is a stunning achievement in 10 years.



  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 13,770

    Thanks all, very informative. I wasn't intending to put a downer on hydrogen, i was just hoping for the kind of things you've highlighted, although that link doesn't seem to work Pross. It's great that we are looking at viable alternatives and the infrastructure to go with it. I probably should have Googled rather than regurgutating something i heard a few years back.
    Agree with public perception of hydrogen, many people will think of the Hindenberg when hydrogen as fuel is mentioned.

    I think the best thing about forums is that people have expertise in different areas, so you can learn things.


  • focuszing723focuszing723 Posts: 2,506
    edited September 2020
    I'm just your average idiot with a connection to the Internet, who relies on millions of computers routers, switches...running in aircon rooms 24/7.
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,086

    Thanks all, very informative. I wasn't intending to put a downer on hydrogen, i was just hoping for the kind of things you've highlighted, although that link doesn't seem to work Pross. It's great that we are looking at viable alternatives and the infrastructure to go with it. I probably should have Googled rather than regurgutating something i heard a few years back.
    Agree with public perception of hydrogen, many people will think of the Hindenberg when hydrogen as fuel is mentioned.

    Not sure what was happening with that link, try this one https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-53178463/hi-tech-greenhouses-to-supply-uk-stores-with-food
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 24,580 Lives Here
    Pross said:

    Thanks all, very informative. I wasn't intending to put a downer on hydrogen, i was just hoping for the kind of things you've highlighted, although that link doesn't seem to work Pross. It's great that we are looking at viable alternatives and the infrastructure to go with it. I probably should have Googled rather than regurgutating something i heard a few years back.
    Agree with public perception of hydrogen, many people will think of the Hindenberg when hydrogen as fuel is mentioned.

    Not sure what was happening with that link, try this one https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-53178463/hi-tech-greenhouses-to-supply-uk-stores-with-food
    That works. I'd seen something similar done but excess heat from cooling a plant was piped down the road to heat a station and shopping centre. Makes a lot of sense.
  • lesfirthlesfirth Posts: 1,196
    elbowloh said:

    lesfirth said:

    I have just watched the hydrogen train on BBC news and I do not know who is trying to con the viewers.
    The use of hydrogen is very clean at the point of use. However all the hydrogen on earth is combined with something else. It is impossible to separate it without using energy. All hydrogen use does is create a bigger problem somewhere else.
    The tree huggers will say that we can use renewables to make the hydrogen. At this moment on this windy day, renewables are generating 30% of our electricity. A new nuclear power station on Anglesey is not going to happen.
    Unless we can have deserts covered in solar panels providing the energy required and tankers moving the hydrogen around the world ,along with carbon capture, I think we are all doomed.

    I believe that, in the year to date, renewables have provided more energy to the UK grid than non-renewables?
    That may or may not be correct depending where you get the data but that is an average over a period. Mass storage of electricity is not possible so we have to provide generating capacity for the winter day when we have a high pressure sat over us and the wind does not blow. We need extra generating capacity to charge all the electric cars and to allow for our reduced nuclear capacity. The massive other problem is how are we going to replace all the gas we use in industry and to heat our homes? The government seem to think we can do that with a bit of extra insulation and a heat pump in every house! I will never know but by grandkids will.
    I have just checked on Gridwatch.co.uk. Renewables are contributing 23% at the moment.
  • lesfirth said:

    elbowloh said:

    lesfirth said:

    I have just watched the hydrogen train on BBC news and I do not know who is trying to con the viewers.
    The use of hydrogen is very clean at the point of use. However all the hydrogen on earth is combined with something else. It is impossible to separate it without using energy. All hydrogen use does is create a bigger problem somewhere else.
    The tree huggers will say that we can use renewables to make the hydrogen. At this moment on this windy day, renewables are generating 30% of our electricity. A new nuclear power station on Anglesey is not going to happen.
    Unless we can have deserts covered in solar panels providing the energy required and tankers moving the hydrogen around the world ,along with carbon capture, I think we are all doomed.

    I believe that, in the year to date, renewables have provided more energy to the UK grid than non-renewables?
    That may or may not be correct depending where you get the data but that is an average over a period. Mass storage of electricity is not possible so we have to provide generating capacity for the winter day when we have a high pressure sat over us and the wind does not blow. We need extra generating capacity to charge all the electric cars and to allow for our reduced nuclear capacity. The massive other problem is how are we going to replace all the gas we use in industry and to heat our homes? The government seem to think we can do that with a bit of extra insulation and a heat pump in every house! I will never know but by grandkids will.
    I have just checked on Gridwatch.co.uk. Renewables are contributing 23% at the moment.
    This has been mentioned a few times in this thread, hydroelectric. Basically a massive battery.

  • Wow!
    So hydrogen is going to replace diesel for moving trains and potentially lorries somewhere in the near future. Hardly fixes anything.
    What's far more important and hasn't been picked up in this thread is that China are the first super power to say that they will be carbon neutral by 2060. Probably too late, but a far better outlook than meddling with certain types of transport that have a minute carbon footprint in comparison to building loads of coal burning powerstations.

    https://theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/27/china-carbon-pledge-put-energy-system-reverse-wind-solar
  • lesfirthlesfirth Posts: 1,196

    lesfirth said:

    elbowloh said:

    lesfirth said:

    I have just watched the hydrogen train on BBC news and I do not know who is trying to con the viewers.
    The use of hydrogen is very clean at the point of use. However all the hydrogen on earth is combined with something else. It is impossible to separate it without using energy. All hydrogen use does is create a bigger problem somewhere else.
    The tree huggers will say that we can use renewables to make the hydrogen. At this moment on this windy day, renewables are generating 30% of our electricity. A new nuclear power station on Anglesey is not going to happen.
    Unless we can have deserts covered in solar panels providing the energy required and tankers moving the hydrogen around the world ,along with carbon capture, I think we are all doomed.

    I believe that, in the year to date, renewables have provided more energy to the UK grid than non-renewables?
    That may or may not be correct depending where you get the data but that is an average over a period. Mass storage of electricity is not possible so we have to provide generating capacity for the winter day when we have a high pressure sat over us and the wind does not blow. We need extra generating capacity to charge all the electric cars and to allow for our reduced nuclear capacity. The massive other problem is how are we going to replace all the gas we use in industry and to heat our homes? The government seem to think we can do that with a bit of extra insulation and a heat pump in every house! I will never know but by grandkids will.
    I have just checked on Gridwatch.co.uk. Renewables are contributing 23% at the moment.
    This has been mentioned a few times in this thread, hydroelectric. Basically a massive battery.

    Like Dinorwig in North Wales? That is by far the biggest .On its own it could power the UK for about a quarter of an hour and then be useless until a surplus of electricity was available. Building one in Norfolk would be a bit tricky. ( You need a mountain with a lake at the top and the bottom) .
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 8,841
    Hey, cargobike! Did you make it to JoG?
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 13,770
    The committee on climate change has written a 600 page report about all of these things including quantifying the impact of transport.

  • lesfirth said:

    lesfirth said:

    elbowloh said:

    lesfirth said:

    I have just watched the hydrogen train on BBC news and I do not know who is trying to con the viewers.
    The use of hydrogen is very clean at the point of use. However all the hydrogen on earth is combined with something else. It is impossible to separate it without using energy. All hydrogen use does is create a bigger problem somewhere else.
    The tree huggers will say that we can use renewables to make the hydrogen. At this moment on this windy day, renewables are generating 30% of our electricity. A new nuclear power station on Anglesey is not going to happen.
    Unless we can have deserts covered in solar panels providing the energy required and tankers moving the hydrogen around the world ,along with carbon capture, I think we are all doomed.

    I believe that, in the year to date, renewables have provided more energy to the UK grid than non-renewables?
    That may or may not be correct depending where you get the data but that is an average over a period. Mass storage of electricity is not possible so we have to provide generating capacity for the winter day when we have a high pressure sat over us and the wind does not blow. We need extra generating capacity to charge all the electric cars and to allow for our reduced nuclear capacity. The massive other problem is how are we going to replace all the gas we use in industry and to heat our homes? The government seem to think we can do that with a bit of extra insulation and a heat pump in every house! I will never know but by grandkids will.
    I have just checked on Gridwatch.co.uk. Renewables are contributing 23% at the moment.
    This has been mentioned a few times in this thread, hydroelectric. Basically a massive battery.

    Like Dinorwig in North Wales? That is by far the biggest .On its own it could power the UK for about a quarter of an hour and then be useless until a surplus of electricity was available. Building one in Norfolk would be a bit tricky. ( You need a mountain with a lake at the top and the bottom) .
    The idea is you pump the water back when demand is low. I'm sure more could be built given the will and requirement.


    We want to build NorthConnect to facilitate more renewable energy production and to ensure that surplus power from Scotland is able to be used, rather than switched off.

    In Norway there is a large and increasing power surplus. The greatest surplus is the power surplus in the region that the NorthConnect connection is planned to be laid in Hordaland. In this power region, twice as much power is produced as it is consumed. In Scotland, there is a growing supply of wind power. Storage of this power is slowly developing, but currently, when there is insufficient wind, the power market in Scotland needs the supply of other energy that can be quickly turned on and off. Hydropower has this ability. Hydropower can be stored - and it can be turned on and off quickly. When it is not windy on the Scottish side, NorthConnect can provide the supply of Norwegian hydropower. When it is very windy, Norway can buy cheaper wind power from Scotland and save hydropower for the price and demand increases. In this way, both Norway and Scotland are guaranteed stable, cheap and renewable power.


    https://northconnect.co.uk/

    There is also this which is a good idea.
  • orraloon said:

    Hey, cargobike! Did you make it to JoG?

    Yup!
    Arrived at 5pm on Sunday.
    Despite headwinds every day but the day of arrival, which changed my criteria from an optimistic 7 days to 9 instead.
    All on a Bullitt cargobike carrying all my food, clothes, spares and camping gear.
    Not in a rush to do that again :D
    Got home yesterday and been asleep for 24 hours!
    Time for a well earned pint.
  • Cargobike said:

    orraloon said:

    Hey, cargobike! Did you make it to JoG?

    Yup!
    Arrived at 5pm on Sunday.
    Despite headwinds every day but the day of arrival, which changed my criteria from an optimistic 7 days to 9 instead.
    All on a Bullitt cargobike carrying all my food, clothes, spares and camping gear.
    Not in a rush to do that again :D
    Got home yesterday and been asleep for 24 hours!
    Time for a well earned pint.
    Nice one:)
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