So what happens if Labour win?

ben@31

Im sure if we all try hard enough we will find a powerpoint bar chart that proves whatever point we are trying to make. While brushing aside all other "inconvenient" bar charts.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Stevo_666

ben@31 wrote:

Im sure if we all try hard enough we will find a powerpoint bar chart that proves whatever point we are trying to make. While brushing aside all other "inconvenient" bar charts.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Sorry for using evidence and statistics. Why don't you try the same thing - from an economically literate source if possible. Now there's a challenge for you

Stevo_666

Kajjal wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

ben@31 wrote:

Have the tories borrowed more? And how is our national debt after all those austerity cuts, still as big ?

With a banking system that makes a profit for itself out of made up "fiat" currency and debt repayments. I don't think it is possible to get out of our national debt.
We simply don't produce enough products with real value (like oil or gold) to sell to meet the repayments. We are effectively borrowing to pay the interest.

What austerity has done is rob money from vital public services that effect people's lives. Yet we still find enough money to give to RBS bankers for their utter incompetence or several years of war in Afghanistan and Iraq that we have we paid for at £x million per day, every day?

* fiat currency and central banks... now that is a magic money tree.

Have a look at the pattern of UK borrowing requirements by year:



After peaking in the last year Labour were in power, they have steadily fallen - so it is working, but it takes time to repair the damage of a Labour govt. If Labour had stayed in power in 2010, they would have continued to go up. And if this socialist shower get in and do what their manifesto says they will rocket quickly and materially.

More up to date figured from the ONS

http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... N05745.pdf

The problem is not people on PAYE paying tax and supporting the country the problem is corporate transfer pricing to avoid tax and the wealthy outside of PAYE using tax havens and various schemes such as tax havens to avoid paying tax.

For example

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... tax-reform

This is why we all have to pay more tax than is necessary and don't have a more balanced lower tax economy. It removes the rewards and incentives for people making something of themselves. The current governments tax cuts and handouts to the wealthy reinforce this problem. We need more competition, opportunity and reward not less.

The only way round this is a land / mansion tax as you can't move land out of the country or pretend it is not there.

Is this a serious reply?

If so I shall have fun replying more fuller later on

ben@31

Stevo 666 wrote:

ben@31 wrote:

Im sure if we all try hard enough we will find a powerpoint bar chart that proves whatever point we are trying to make. While brushing aside all other "inconvenient" bar charts.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Sorry for using evidence and statistics. Why don't you try the same thing - from an economically literate source if possible. Now there's a challenge for you

The biggest indicator of how well the tory government has done is looking around where we live and the conditions that people now face.

Ive had nothing but cutbacks were I work. Theres less police. Less fire service but stretched more. Those working in the NHS aren't complementary. Local council has lost funding. Public services, such as libraries, have been closed down. Students £40000 in debt, cant afford housing and some students I know cant get a job after graduation.

That is my evidence of how well the tories have done, which cant be denied.

Bar charts dont pay the mortgage

slowmart

ben@31 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

ben@31 wrote:

Im sure if we all try hard enough we will find a powerpoint bar chart that proves whatever point we are trying to make. While brushing aside all other "inconvenient" bar charts.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Sorry for using evidence and statistics. Why don't you try the same thing - from an economically literate source if possible. Now there's a challenge for you

The biggest indicator of how well the tory government has done is looking around where we live and the conditions that people now face.

Ive had nothing but cutbacks were I work. Theres less police. Less fire service but stretched more. Those working in the NHS aren't complementary. Local council has lost funding. Public services, such as libraries, have been closed down. Students £40000 in debt, cant afford housing and some students I know cant get a job after graduation.

That is my evidence of how well the tories have done, which cant be denied.

Bar charts dont pay the mortgage

Think how much worse it would have been if Labour had been in power. They would have implemented the same strategy or tried to spend their way out until the money pot had been drained. Which is what they did in 1976 and the UK went cap in hand to the IMF for a bailout which preceded slashed budgets across government departments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_IMF_Crisis

That was labour government in charge and set the scene for the tory landslide which elected Maggie as PM.

As Stevo has found, be careful what you wish for

Frank the tank

When the national deficit was 4x what it is today a labour government found the resources to set up a NHS after the second world war. We can afford a well funded NHS and benefits system. DON'T LET TORY PROPAGANDA tell you any different.

surrey_commuter

Frank the tank wrote:

When the national deficit was 4x what it is today a labour government found the resources to set up a NHS after the second world war. We can afford a well funded NHS and benefits system. DON'T LET TORY PROPAGANDA tell you any different.

But we need £43bn of cuts to break even and then more to make a profit and start paying off the outstanding balance.

So what would you cut to raise an additional £100bn (give or take a few quid)

kajjal

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

When the national deficit was 4x what it is today a labour government found the resources to set up a NHS after the second world war. We can afford a well funded NHS and benefits system. DON'T LET TORY PROPAGANDA tell you any different.

But we need £43bn of cuts to break even and then more to make a profit and start paying off the outstanding balance.

So what would you cut to raise an additional £100bn (give or take a few quid)

Aside from Stevo running away from replying again

This the serious challenge, how do we cut the deficit without causing serious economic damage especially with the uncertainty around BREXIT. It is important people have the opportunity, incentives and rewards to make something of themselves.

verylonglegs

Frank the tank wrote:

When the national deficit was 4x what it is today a labour government found the resources to set up a NHS after the second world war. We can afford a well funded NHS and benefits system. DON'T LET TORY PROPAGANDA tell you any different.

I'm not saying it's impossible to have that level of care but comparing the two era's isn't practical. Post war you had a young and by todays standards lean and fit poplulation. Also people ceasing to pay into the system and then requiring 30yrs of care didn't happen as well as the lack of very expensive drug treatments that are available now.

meanredspider

verylonglegs wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

When the national deficit was 4x what it is today a labour government found the resources to set up a NHS after the second world war. We can afford a well funded NHS and benefits system. DON'T LET TORY PROPAGANDA tell you any different.

I'm not saying it's impossible to have that level of care but comparing the two era's isn't practical. Post war you had a young and by todays standards lean and fit poplulation. Also people ceasing to pay into the system and then requiring 30yrs of care didn't happen as well as the lack of very expensive drug treatments that are available now.

Yup - we were making stuff in ever-increasing quantities. And, there's the rub: it's much easier with a growing economy. Then the 70's happened...

kajjal

meanredspider wrote:

verylonglegs wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

When the national deficit was 4x what it is today a labour government found the resources to set up a NHS after the second world war. We can afford a well funded NHS and benefits system. DON'T LET TORY PROPAGANDA tell you any different.

I'm not saying it's impossible to have that level of care but comparing the two era's isn't practical. Post war you had a young and by todays standards lean and fit poplulation. Also people ceasing to pay into the system and then requiring 30yrs of care didn't happen as well as the lack of very expensive drug treatments that are available now.

Yup - we were making stuff in ever-increasing quantities. And, there's the rub: it's much easier with a growing economy. Then the 70's happened...

That is exactly the problem.

surrey_commuter

Kajjal wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

When the national deficit was 4x what it is today a labour government found the resources to set up a NHS after the second world war. We can afford a well funded NHS and benefits system. DON'T LET TORY PROPAGANDA tell you any different.

But we need £43bn of cuts to break even and then more to make a profit and start paying off the outstanding balance.

So what would you cut to raise an additional £100bn (give or take a few quid)

Aside from Stevo running away from replying again

This the serious challenge, how do we cut the deficit without causing serious economic damage especially with the uncertainty around BREXIT. It is important people have the opportunity, incentives and rewards to make something of themselves.

Ironically those most reliant on the State were most likely to risk economic prosperity by voting Leave. Come the next recession things will get a damn site worse so I hope that they still place such a high value on sovereignity

mamba80

Slowmart wrote:

ben@31 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

ben@31 wrote:

Im sure if we all try hard enough we will find a powerpoint bar chart that proves whatever point we are trying to make. While brushing aside all other "inconvenient" bar charts.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Sorry for using evidence and statistics. Why don't you try the same thing - from an economically literate source if possible. Now there's a challenge for you

The biggest indicator of how well the tory government has done is looking around where we live and the conditions that people now face.

Ive had nothing but cutbacks were I work. Theres less police. Less fire service but stretched more. Those working in the NHS aren't complementary. Local council has lost funding. Public services, such as libraries, have been closed down. Students £40000 in debt, cant afford housing and some students I know cant get a job after graduation.

That is my evidence of how well the tories have done, which cant be denied.

Bar charts dont pay the mortgage

Think how much worse it would have been if Labour had been in power. They would have implemented the same strategy or tried to spend their way out until the money pot had been drained. Which is what they did in 1976 and the UK went cap in hand to the IMF for a bailout which preceded slashed budgets across government departments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_IMF_Crisis

That was labour government in charge and set the scene for the tory landslide which elected Maggie as PM.

As Stevo has found, be careful what you wish for

yep but the seeds for the imf crisis were sown by the previous heath government, which were in pwr until 1974, leaving Labour with inflation at 12% and an increasing debt burden and not forgetting a 4 fold increase in oil prices, due to the Arab Israeli wars of the 1970's

Did Labour handle it as well as they could? probably not, bit like the tories and black wednesday then.

Frank the tank

I won the lottery of life!

I was born in GB in 1961. A lot on here fall into that demograph, but they don't appreciate what they have is actually down to ordinary people in years gone by standing up to their "betters" and demanding a decent standard of living. Some of them were executed (murdered) others transported others incarcerated. Benefits being withdrawn, Zero hours contracts the nhs being run down. another twenty years and we will be back to Victorian values alright. I know where my roots lie others have ideas above their station. You have what you have in spite of the tories not because of them.

meanredspider

Frank the tank wrote:

I won the lottery of life!

I was born in GB in 1961. A lot on here fall into that demograph, but they don't appreciate what they have is actually down to ordinary people in years gone by standing up to their "betters" and demanding a decent standard of living. Some of them were executed (murdered) others transported others incarcerated. Benefits being withdrawn, Zero hours contracts the nhs being run down. another twenty years and we will be back to Victorian values alright. I know where my roots lie others have ideas above their station. You have what you have in spite of the tories not because of them.

Actually, much of what we have is on the backs of either slavery or the peoples of the empire.

kajjal

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

When the national deficit was 4x what it is today a labour government found the resources to set up a NHS after the second world war. We can afford a well funded NHS and benefits system. DON'T LET TORY PROPAGANDA tell you any different.

But we need £43bn of cuts to break even and then more to make a profit and start paying off the outstanding balance.

So what would you cut to raise an additional £100bn (give or take a few quid)

Aside from Stevo running away from replying again

This the serious challenge, how do we cut the deficit without causing serious economic damage especially with the uncertainty around BREXIT. It is important people have the opportunity, incentives and rewards to make something of themselves.

Ironically those most reliant on the State were most likely to risk economic prosperity by voting Leave. Come the next recession things will get a damn site worse so I hope that they still place such a high value on sovereignity

Very True but I think that was an act from anger and desperation as neither Conservative or new Labour represented them , which if you look at Scotland is how the SNP took over, new labour took Scotland for granted.

cougie

Aah but we get the blue passports. Not sure we'll have the money to travel and we'll have the non EU queues to contend with. I may stay at home...

Frank the tank

meanredspider wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

I won the lottery of life!

I was born in GB in 1961. A lot on here fall into that demograph, but they don't appreciate what they have is actually down to ordinary people in years gone by standing up to their "betters" and demanding a decent standard of living. Some of them were executed (murdered) others transported others incarcerated. Benefits being withdrawn, Zero hours contracts the nhs being run down. another twenty years and we will be back to Victorian values alright. I know where my roots lie others have ideas above their station. You have what you have in spite of the tories not because of them.

Actually, much of what we have is on the backs of either slavery or the peoples of the empire.

Yes, Tory exploitation, funnily enough I don't want a society that goes back there again.

meanredspider

Frank the tank wrote:

Yes, Tory exploitation, funnily enough I don't want a society that goes back there again.

Actually, the Slave Trade was abolished under a Tory government - but, as per usual, let's not let facts get in the way of your rhetoric.

rick_chasey

meanredspider wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Yes, Tory exploitation, funnily enough I don't want a society that goes back there again.

Actually, the Slave Trade was abolished under a Tory government - but, as per usual, let's not let facts get in the way of your rhetoric.

Not quite the same party as this current iteration though is it?

They also were quite happy for brits to commit huge atrocities all across the world in the name of colonialism, but in this context it's not really relevant is it?

meanredspider

Rick Chasey wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Yes, Tory exploitation, funnily enough I don't want a society that goes back there again.

Actually, the Slave Trade was abolished under a Tory government - but, as per usual, let's not let facts get in the way of your rhetoric.

Not quite the same party as this current iteration though is it?

They also were quite happy for brits to commit huge atrocities all across the world in the name of colonialism, but in this context it's not really relevant is it?

Of course it isn't. But I think it's important, when we look at why this nation grew as wealthy as it did (in common with a lot of European nations) that it was on the backs of other peoples of the world. And no party (historical or modern) has a monopoly on that, despite what FtT says,

Stevo_666

ben@31 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

ben@31 wrote:

Im sure if we all try hard enough we will find a powerpoint bar chart that proves whatever point we are trying to make. While brushing aside all other "inconvenient" bar charts.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Sorry for using evidence and statistics. Why don't you try the same thing - from an economically literate source if possible. Now there's a challenge for you

The biggest indicator of how well the tory government has done is looking around where we live and the conditions that people now face.

Ive had nothing but cutbacks were I work. Theres less police. Less fire service but stretched more. Those working in the NHS aren't complementary. Local council has lost funding. Public services, such as libraries, have been closed down. Students £40000 in debt, cant afford housing and some students I know cant get a job after graduation.

That is my evidence of how well the tories have done, which cant be denied.

Bar charts dont pay the mortgage

Looks like you failed the challenge

Personal experience and anecdotal evidence alone is not enough. But if you want some in return, its not all how I see things where I am.

Stevo_666

Kajjal wrote:

The problem is not people on PAYE paying tax and supporting the country the problem is corporate transfer pricing to avoid tax and the wealthy outside of PAYE using tax havens and various schemes such as tax havens to avoid paying tax.

Nope.
- There is not a lot of tax avoidance via transfer pricing in the scheme of thing and there is significant anti-avoidance regs in this area anyway. The total amount of corporate tax that HMRC estimate is avoided for any reason (not just transfer pricing) is £3.7bn pa out of a total tax gap of 36bn pa. Where do you get your figures from? As someone who deals transfer pricing as part of my job, I can tell you that I am trying to maximise taxable revenues in the UK at the expense of higher tax countries in my Group - because the UK rates are competitively low. The opposite of what you claim.

- The total amount avoided or evaded by individuals for (never mind the wealthy ones or tax haven users you seem to think are to blame) is £3.4bn pa. So the 'wealthy tax haven user' subset will be substantially smaller, especially as there is significant anti-avoidance legislation in this area. Again, relatively small in terms of solving the gap in government income that you want to fill.

Here is my data source, courtesy of HMRC:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/561312/HMRC-measuring-tax-gaps-2016.pdf

Do you have some evidence to the contrary on either of those points?

Kajjal wrote:

This is why we all have to pay more tax than is necessary and don't have a more balanced lower tax economy. It removes the rewards and incentives for people making something of themselves. The current governments tax cuts and handouts to the wealthy reinforce this problem. We need more competition, opportunity and reward not less.

Why on earth would anyone in their right minds want a tax system as you propose that 'removes the incentive for people making something of themselves'? A sure fire way to destroy wealth creation and therefore tax revenues. Simply a bad idea.

As for your claimed tax cuts and handouts to the wealthy, seems to me like leftiebollox when you look at the evidence:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/26/nearly-half-of-britons-pay-no-income-tax-as-burden-on-rich-incre/

Kajjal wrote:

The only way round this is a land / mansion tax as you can't move land out of the country or pretend it is not there.

Rubbish. Mansion tax when originally proposed was only projected to raise £1.2 billion - not a lot in the scheme of things:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2600528/95-mansion-tax-income-come-London-South-East.html
And quite possibly cost the country money:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/constructionandproperty/11086216/Mansion-tax-could-cost-the-country-1bn.html

Unless of course you are just proposing jacking up council tax or equivalent - which would require stinging a huge proportion of the population, many of whom will not be 'rich'.

Now, what were you saying about running away?

Frank the tank

meanredspider wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Yes, Tory exploitation, funnily enough I don't want a society that goes back there again.

Actually, the Slave Trade was abolished under a Tory government - but, as per usual, let's not let facts get in the way of your rhetoric.

When the labour party didn't exist.
That was formed when British workers got fed up of being treated like slaves.

kajjal

Stevo 666 wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

The problem is not people on PAYE paying tax and supporting the country the problem is corporate transfer pricing to avoid tax and the wealthy outside of PAYE using tax havens and various schemes such as tax havens to avoid paying tax.

Nope.
- There is not a lot of tax avoidance via transfer pricing in the scheme of thing and there is significant anti-avoidance regs in this area anyway. The total amount of corporate tax that HMRC estimate is avoided for any reason (not just transfer pricing) is £3.7bn pa out of a total tax gap of 36bn pa. Where do you get your figures from? As someone who deals transfer pricing as part of my job, I can tell you that I am trying to maximise taxable revenues in the UK at the expense of higher tax countries in my Group - because the UK rates are competitively low. The opposite of what you claim.

- The total amount avoided or evaded by individuals for (never mind the wealthy ones or tax haven users you seem to think are to blame) is £3.4bn pa. So the 'wealthy tax haven user' subset will be substantially smaller, especially as there is significant anti-avoidance legislation in this area. Again, relatively small in terms of solving the gap in government income that you want to fill.

Here is my data source, courtesy of HMRC:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/561312/HMRC-measuring-tax-gaps-2016.pdf

Do you have some evidence to the contrary on either of those points?

Kajjal wrote:

This is why we all have to pay more tax than is necessary and don't have a more balanced lower tax economy. It removes the rewards and incentives for people making something of themselves. The current governments tax cuts and handouts to the wealthy reinforce this problem. We need more competition, opportunity and reward not less.

Why on earth would anyone in their right minds want a tax system as you propose that 'removes the incentive for people making something of themselves'? A sure fire way to destroy wealth creation and therefore tax revenues. Simply a bad idea.

As for your claimed tax cuts and handouts to the wealthy, seems to me like leftiebollox when you look at the evidence:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/26/nearly-half-of-britons-pay-no-income-tax-as-burden-on-rich-incre/

Kajjal wrote:

The only way round this is a land / mansion tax as you can't move land out of the country or pretend it is not there.

Rubbish. Mansion tax when originally proposed was only projected to raise £1.2 billion - not a lot in the scheme of things:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2600528/95-mansion-tax-income-come-London-South-East.html
And quite possibly cost the country money:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/constructionandproperty/11086216/Mansion-tax-could-cost-the-country-1bn.html

Unless of course you are just proposing jacking up council tax or equivalent - which would require stinging a huge proportion of the population, many of whom will not be 'rich'.

Now, what were you saying about running away?

Well thats £9.3bn you found with very little effort, even avoiding a land tax, ignoring how large corporates avoid tax and making up your own figures on wealthy tax avoiders. Then you quoted the unbiased source of the telegraph repeatedly .

I will give you a gold star for trying

webboo

meanredspider wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Yes, Tory exploitation, funnily enough I don't want a society that goes back there again.

Actually, the Slave Trade was abolished under a Tory government - but, as per usual, let's not let facts get in the way of your rhetoric.

Like when one of the main anti slave exponents Wilberforce was happy for English workers to be shot for protesting against their working conditions.

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

As for your claimed tax cuts and handouts to the wealthy, seems to me like leftiebollox when you look at the evidence:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/26/nearly-half-of-britons-pay-no-income-tax-as-burden-on-rich-incre/

Yep at last we agree, paying people less and less year on year means that the tax burden shifts to higher earners, big problem with our low wage low skilled economy, not too mention claims for in work benefits increasing, we will never pay of any debt unless we change this.

Do you now see what Corbyn is trying to do with increased investment in education and adult skills? even if you disagree with his methods, his aims are laudable....what are the Tories proposing in this regard, in 7 years little has changed.

ben@31

Frank the tank wrote:

When the national deficit was 4x what it is today a labour government found the resources to set up a NHS after the second world war. We can afford a well funded NHS and benefits system. DON'T LET TORY PROPAGANDA tell you any different.

Between 0:37 and 0:52, he says a brilliant quote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LnY-jy_cE0

slowmart

ben@31 wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

When the national deficit was 4x what it is today a labour government found the resources to set up a NHS after the second world war. We can afford a well funded NHS and benefits system. DON'T LET TORY PROPAGANDA tell you any different.

Between 0:37 and 0:52, he says a brilliant quote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LnY-jy_cE0

WW2 put the UK in debt to the amount we were still paying back in the 80's. Momentum supporters. :roll: I doubt even ComradeJezza would subscribe to that, then again ....

slowmart

Oh and a top trending story on BBC news is how Jezza thinks having police shoot to kill is counterproductive


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politic ... ill-policy

Maybe we could convince Jezza and Diane Abbot to run towards the danger and try and talk the terrorists around, like he did with the IRA?