Handbuilt Wheels Frustration

g00se

A bit far away but this guy has a greet reputation and works with Hope.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BSyGCIaBPID/

https://www.facebook.com/AugustBicycles/

apreading

I have just looked on their website and found that JustRidingAlong dont do custom builds anymore. They also bought a load of machinery for doing the builds and now only do their own brand stuff. I guess they found the market for that big enough to sustain them and the simplicity means that its not worth bothing with the hand build custom wheels going forward. Seems like this is a common practice for most builders at the moment, to at least promote 'standard, own branded' wheel builds even if they dont completely shun the more bespoke stuff. I wonder if change in exchange rates is partly to blame - meaning the only way to be competitive is to pre-buy a smaller range of stuff in higher quantities. That and higher demand meaning the pressure to build wheels more quickly is an issue too?

timothyw

I suspect it just isn't cost effective to have wheels built locally, and that they are outsourcing the process as much as possible - so it might be their line of wheels is entirely handbuilt abroad, or that they are now hand-finishing wheels that are assembled abroad.

This will be much more cost effective for them, but will mean they lack the flexibility they previously had.

One need only look at eg Jim Varnish's road wheel offering here:
http://v-sprint.com/product/carbon-allo ... heels-pro/

These are apparently hand built, I personally doubt that Jim values his time so poorly that he is spending hours lacing and building each wheelset himself, and then selling them for a mere £80 - or that the parts are so cheap that it would be cost effective for him to do so.

Much more believable is that a factory in the far east is hand building them (or lacing and then machine building them) and he checks the wheels for proper tension, true etc once they get to the UK.

ugo.santalucia

Are we speculating a bit here? It would be good to hear from JRA the reasons...

It might well be that in the end everybody want the same two or three things. When I built wheels, 80+% of what I built were Archetype 24/28.

apreading

http://www.justridingalong.com/wheel_building

We have been building wheels for around 15 years and in 2017 moving towards our own wheel range gives us the consistency of product and supply to build accurate wheels every time. It enables us to continuously improve on the process and the products we sell to deliver the best wheels.

Every wheel is expertly built from start to finish in our York workshop with all components checked and prepared before building. During the building process the wheels are bedded in, stretched, and tensioned repeatedly until they settle into their final state so they won’t go out of true or lose tension. All wheels are trued on our PK and Lie jig for maximum accuracy and consistency. We inspect, check and finish every wheel with equal care.

Recent investment in machinery means we can speed up the wheel building during the lacing processes where there is no advantage to hand building, and in fact the machines used correctly are more accurate and can achieve better tension with less damage to the nipple. The detensioning press replaces the old technique of squeezing by hand, or for stiffer wheels, the not-very-well-kept secret of jumping on the wheels to bed in the spokes and nipples. The manual methods are flawed by the fact you can only put pressure on 2 spots on the rim and not in an even way, leading to inconsistencies and distortions in the wheel while the press applies even tension around the rim for more accurate wheels which stay tensioned better.

Efficiencies in production enables us to concentrate our time on finishing the wheels to the same high standard we always have.

ugo.santalucia

I suppose when you've built your first thousand wheels, the lacing process becomes very boring and time consuming. It is true a machine can do it just as well, or probably better. Obviously if you use machines to lace, you want to minimise the range of components, to ensure consistency.

I still think behind it all, there is a lesser demand for bespoke. People like the hand built concept, but very few really want something out of the norm...

dinyull

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Are we speculating a bit here? It would be good to hear from JRA the reasons...

It might well be that in the end everybody want the same two or three things. When I built wheels, 80+% of what I built were Archetype 24/28.

Was that because of your recommendations, or what people were asking for?

ugo.santalucia

Dinyull wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Are we speculating a bit here? It would be good to hear from JRA the reasons...

It might well be that in the end everybody want the same two or three things. When I built wheels, 80+% of what I built were Archetype 24/28.

Was that because of your recommendations, or what people were asking for?

Good question... it was a case of both. People wanted Archetype and light and I advised 24/28 for most reasonably light/fit riders. Occasionally there was a pair of 32/32 on 6800 hubs, which were a total bargain at the time

ronnierocket

This is the other place along with wheelsmtih that are normally recommended up around Glasgow.

http://www.wheelcraft.net/ My friends have bought lots of wheels from them including hope hubs (in purple). From all accounts they don't understand how he makes much money and think he should be charging more.

My bike shop handmade wheels for me based on hope hubs 5 years ago which are still going strong and bulletproof. http://www.billybilslandcycles.co.uk/

ugo.santalucia

ronnierocket wrote:

This is the other place along with wheelsmtih that are normally recommended up around Glasgow.

http://www.wheelcraft.net/ My friends have bought lots of wheels from them including hope hubs (in purple). From all accounts they don't understand how he makes much money and think he should be charging more.

As I understand, Big Al lives in the middle of nowhere, doesn't have a mobile phone and is a bit of a hermit... some people might not need much money to get by... assume you own the place with no mortgage and live very frugally... how much money do you need? I'd say you can probably live well within your tax free allowance

964cup

Build 'em yourself. And personally I wouldn't worry too much about starting with 20/24...the first two sets of wheels I built were 20/24 Stans Alpha 340 on Novatec SL. Both sets still going strong three years later; one of them just did Liege-Bastogne-Liege. Be prepared to spend time on getting everything right, but as long as you take things slowly it's not all that difficult. With apologies to Paulo and Malcolm et al, wheelbuilding (at least for standard lacings) isn't rocket science.

ugo.santalucia

964Cup wrote:

wheelbuilding (at least for standard lacings) isn't rocket science.

Nothing is...

Not even brazing is rocket science. You are joining two lengths of pipe with some glorified solder at the end of the day... there are a few "don't" with some fancy lengths of steel, but otherwise... I mean...

bmxboy10

Bit of an update....

Spoke to Strada - they can help so goes to show you should ignore the website - nice guy very helpful
Spoke to Noble - they can help too....another nice guy who was very helpful - anyone heard of BOYD rims?
Spoke to Malcolm - he can help too and I can supply the hubs...as we know he is a nice helpful guy and just to confirm he is not out of action - sorry Malcolm bad terminology on my part!
Spoke to Hargorves - they told me to get some Ksyriums....but another nice guy

The cost of the handbuilts is in the region of £600 with scewers :shock: Malcolm as always has tried to make me see sense and go for what I need rather than what I want but the jury is still out.

Conclusion - there are lots of nice helpful guys out there!

ugo.santalucia

Did you not want 460 on Hope? How can they come to 600?

RRP of the parts is probably 330-340 without the skewers

Biyd rims, yes, aren't they carbon?

bmxboy10

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Did you not want 460 on Hope? How can they come to 600?

RRP of the parts is probably 330-340 without the skewers

Biyd rims, yes, aren't they carbon?

Boyd rims that were suggested are alu. The builders either don't do the r460 or don't recommend them for me. Other recommendations are r511 or Stans. If yours look good I probably get the hubs send them to Malcolm and ask him to build them for me.

cycleclinic

The R460 rim is useful for those who want to cut costs because you don't need tubeless tape to get easy fitting clinchers. Of course the down side is more tubeless tape is needed for some tubeless tyres. Also I don't find them to be round debt rims, nothing that causes a problem but 0.7mm is not uncommon ammount of radial movement. Yes this can be trued out a bit (not much mind) but you then start to compromise spoke tension evenness. This is why I suspect many builders don't recommend them. I don't have to not recommend them I list them and hardly ever sell them.

Jra have just cut out hub options limiting to a huge range of industry nine hubs.


Overall jra can make more money doing own brand wheels than doing custom builds as they are the importer for industry nine.

I am guilty of this too. The reason why I do it are many not only do I think they work well as wheels but like Jra I look at this as a business. I can buy rims in bigger quantities. I can get better pricing this way. I can buy the spokes needed in bags of 500 and the price drops. Hubs are bought oem. In fact I buy enough of miche now that I am looking at a custom forging. It is not only price of parts that drives this. By stocking a smaller range of rims and hubs you end up making fewer building errors which wastes time, but also you are more in control of the stock you hold. I am Less reliant on distributors having stock. DT Swiss rims for example are always out of stock when you need them.

Also the builds are often easier to build up. Custom build simply take longer when you include getting the parts but also some builds simply take more time to get right.

I am sure jra's logic is similar to mine. We are both running business after all. We may love what we do but it is no Longer a hobby.

Business grow by being efficient. Custom wheel building is nice to do for the variety as much as anything else, which is why I still do it but it is not efficient.

ugo.santalucia

my 460 turned out very round, with zero need for corrections... ah, the golden tough... :-)

bmxboy10

ugo.santalucia wrote:

my 460 turned out very round, with zero need for corrections... ah, the golden tough... :-)

Photos please......

ugo.santalucia

Moonbiker

Starbike do handbuilt wheels

No hope hubs though

I added the parts & build cost to cart for theese:

Your shopping basket

Quantity Item Price Total



1 DT Swiss R 460 32H black
EAN : 7630024381231
MPN : RTR046RPN32S011270
MJ : 2015

21.75 £* 43.50 £*


1 DT Swiss 350 front MTB/road non-disc 32H
EAN : 7613052101675
MPN : H350AAQXR32SO4670S

37.71 £* 37.71 £*


1 DT Swiss 350 rear Road Non-Disc 32H Shimano 11-speed 5/130mm
EAN : 7630013968061

109.94 £* 109.94 £*


2 starbike.com wheel building service

33.51 £* 67.02 £*


3 DT Swiss Aero Comp black 2.0/2.3/1.2 254mm
EAN : 7630013917311

1x stocked ( Rest: ready for sending in 1-3 days )
26.79 £* 80.37 £*

Total sum £344.84

*plus nipple & rim tape

bmxboy10

So I have spoken to a few more builders who fall into two distinct camps - old school and new school. I have several options on the table and the prices range from £450 - £650 depending on the specification suggested by the builders. The cheaper options mean some faffing on my part to get the right specification at the best price.

Last night I saw a set of Hope wheels on line for under £300 and so thought I would gauge opinions. The wheelset is the Hope Hoops Hope Mono RS/Stans Alpha 400 32/32 Wheelset. The wheelset is handbuilt, tubeless ready and is lighter than my current wheelset by nearly 200g. Basically with discount I can get the wheelset with red hubs and red Hope skewers for £300 which seems like a good deal. Only downsides are that the spoke count is higher than I wanted though nearly all of the old school builders wanted me to follow that route anyway. The Stans rim is also not as wide as the more modern rims and is 17mm int/20mm ext. Any reasons not to buy these as save the faff?

timothyw

Well, as you already hinted there are at least two reasons - the rims are relatively narrow rimmed by today's standards, and they have more spokes than you might otherwise want.

Otherwise, they are by all accounts decent wheelsets.

The real question is whether those two points are worth the extra money and faff.

I have to confess to being somewhat baffled by so many wheelsets still coming with 32 spoke fronts - this is overkill for all but the heaviest of riders or loaded touring. More necessary when disk brakes are involved of course.

ugo.santalucia

Are these rim brake wheels?

I'd be a bit concerned about having 17 internal and 20 external... doesn't leave much to wear on the brake track.

Downside of Stans rims is that they are really to be used with tubeless only and tubed clinchers might explorde out of the rim lip at high pressure

styxd

Stans rims are crap.
Hope hubs are average.
Red hubs look rubbish.
DT Hubs are the best.

apreading

As I understand, the Alpha cannot be run at high pressure - max 80/90PSI. So you must have a wide tyre running at lower pressure if you do that route, ideally tubeless.

bmxboy10

Blurb states max pressure for 23mm clincher is 116psi but at most I run 90psi on 25mm


Can be run with tubes or tubeless. For road and cyclocross Bead Socket Technology (BST) for superior tubeless performance Lightweight design for instant acceleration Wide, low-profile rim design for better cornering and faster rolling Compatible with road tubeless-specific clinchers and conventional clinchers when used with tubes
Meet the ZTR Alpha 400, a rim that shares the same dimensions and Bead Socket Technology as the Alpha 340 but adds the triple channel and internal arch design of our nearly invincible Arch EX and Flow EX rims. The ZTR Alpha 400 offers a 33% thicker spoke bed than the original Alpha 340 rim for maximum durability. Light and fast on the outside, ultra-stiff and strong on the inside, the ZTR Alpha 400 is the rim you've all been looking for.

bmxboy10

styxd wrote:

Stans rims are crap.
Hope hubs are average.
Red hubs look rubbish.
DT Hubs are the best.

so useful and insightful........

ALawson

Speak to Judith at Stayer, I think she builds on Hopes. Or whatever else you want.

itboffin

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Are these rim brake wheels?

I'd be a bit concerned about having 17 internal and 20 external... doesn't leave much to wear on the brake track.

Downside of Stans rims is that they are really to be used with tubeless only and tubed clinchers might explode out of the rim lip at high pressure

its taken me an age to find tyres that work on the alpha 340 rims but the old veloflex corsa 23c work perfect mind you i have two boxes of expensive tyres that didnt

bmxboy10

Would have got these but agree the brake track thickness being what must be only 1.5mm thick would worry me.