Pinno's DIY wax chain lube experiment blog

jermas

This stuff https://www.putoline.com/en/catalogue/product/140/chain-wax/1675/ is a graphite wax. It's very similar to homemade and again is black due to the graphite.

capt_slog

Ballysmate wrote:

https://moltenspeedwax.com/pages/clean-your-chain

I find it interesting that they use two types of solvent to clean the chain, as each will remove a different type of contaminant/grease. On one of the scientific instruments i used to work with and service, I had to use three solvents and in the correct order. Things are getting technical.

I'm considering going down the wax route myself, mainly because I like the idea of clean looking chain and gears. However, i did try a dry dry lube the year before last and thought it was okay until the day the bottle was dry and a Decathlon-brand oil-lube was all I had left.

The difference was huge, yes it looked dirty etc, but suddenly everything went quiet and the changes became ever-so slick. The problem I see with wax (or dry lubes for that matter) is one that Fudgey mentions earlier, if you mange to go through the coating, it probably struggles to reform.

Alex99

This is interesting, but it doesn't really sound simpler or less time consuming. Chain care during my normal bike clean takes about 5 minutes including the cassette and chainrings. I think I would take longer to follow the wax procedure.

People report that rust can be a problem when things gets wet. What do you 'waxers' do after a wet ride? If I lived somewhere warm and dry, then it might make more sense.

slowmart

Single speed belt drive ......I rode with a guy running the set up and it looked sweet and he's done 3k miles without any adjustment.


I'm thinking of commuting to whatever role I'll be doing this winter and a belt driven single speed appeals on so many levels.

Garry H

Slowmart wrote:

Single speed belt drive ......I rode with a guy running the set up and it looked sweet and he's done 3k miles without any adjustment.


I'm thinking of commuting to whatever role I'll be doing this winter and a belt driven single speed appeals on so many levels.

Looked into same thing. Next thing I knew, I was looking at Rohloff Speed Hubs, at about a grand a pop, plus a suitable frame to attach it to. There's a lot of climbing on my commute.

Alex99

Garry H wrote:

Slowmart wrote:

Single speed belt drive ......I rode with a guy running the set up and it looked sweet and he's done 3k miles without any adjustment.


I'm thinking of commuting to whatever role I'll be doing this winter and a belt driven single speed appeals on so many levels.

Looked into same thing. Next thing I knew, I was looking at Rohloff Speed Hubs, at about a grand a pop, plus a suitable frame to attach it to. There's a lot of climbing on my commute.

You could put a new chain and a HG50 cassette on every month for 3 years for that!

slowmart

Garry H wrote:

Slowmart wrote:

Single speed belt drive ......I rode with a guy running the set up and it looked sweet and he's done 3k miles without any adjustment.


I'm thinking of commuting to whatever role I'll be doing this winter and a belt driven single speed appeals on so many levels.

There's a lot of climbing on my commute.

Care to qualify that Gaz? Is that a lot of climbing for an accountant who has uplifts up a hill or 2000ft in 10 miles?

pinno

jermas wrote:

Adding oil to the mix will make it softer and therefore longer lasting. The negative will be, it won't be as clean looking if that's what you're after.
I used heavy weight mineral oil (steam oil) and no extra lube between waxing.

Since you've already added lamp oil, maybe you don't need any additional oil?
Also I'd be very careful heating your mix-It looks highly flammable!
Lastly it's not really necessary to clean the chain so much between waxing- just wipe/dunk.

I heated it up very slowly. Did you actually buy a tin of the Putoline Chain Wax and use that? I doubt the 'oil' in 'lamp oil' is much of a lubricant, it's just a purified paraffin. Like heating oil or Diesel oil, it's just a 'heavy' petroleum distillate.

I intend to use the home made lubricant between waxing which is paraffin oil + xylene + wax. Yes, I intend to just chuck the chain in the mix. I did notice all the cr4p at the bottom 2nd time around and wonder if I should deploy a mesh at the bottom and bin anything below it.

@ Capt Slog: Would there be any benefit to adding PTFE or would you create an emulsion? Would it dissolve in the paraffin/wax mixture?

As for the 2 stage cleaning process, petrol does the lot plus it evaporates quickly does a great cleaning job.

Garry H

Slowmart wrote:

Garry H wrote:

Slowmart wrote:

Single speed belt drive ......I rode with a guy running the set up and it looked sweet and he's done 3k miles without any adjustment.


I'm thinking of commuting to whatever role I'll be doing this winter and a belt driven single speed appeals on so many levels.

There's a lot of climbing on my commute.

Care to qualify that Gaz? Is that a lot of climbing for an accountant who has uplifts up a hill or 2000ft in 10 miles?

Enough to make using a single speed a daft idea.

Thick Mike

Pinno wrote:

jermas wrote:

Adding oil to the mix will make it softer and therefore longer lasting. The negative will be, it won't be as clean looking if that's what you're after.
I used heavy weight mineral oil (steam oil) and no extra lube between waxing.

Since you've already added lamp oil, maybe you don't need any additional oil?
Also I'd be very careful heating your mix-It looks highly flammable!
Lastly it's not really necessary to clean the chain so much between waxing- just wipe/dunk.

I heated it up very slowly. Did you actually buy a tin of the Putoline Chain Wax and use that? I doubt the 'oil' in 'lamp oil' is much of a lubricant, it's just a purified paraffin. Like heating oil or Diesel oil, it's just a 'heavy' petroleum distillate.

I intend to use the home made lubricant between waxing which is paraffin oil + xylene + wax. Yes, I intend to just chuck the chain in the mix. I did notice all the cr4p at the bottom 2nd time around and wonder if I should deploy a mesh at the bottom and bin anything below it.

@ Capt Slog: Would there be any benefit to adding PTFE or would you create an emulsion? Would it dissolve in the paraffin/wax mixture?

As for the 2 stage cleaning process, petrol does the lot plus it evaporates quickly does a great cleaning job.

PTFE won't dissolve in your mixture, in fact it doesn't really dissolve in anything you are likely to find in your garage!

pinno

Thick Mike wrote:

Pinno wrote:

jermas wrote:

Adding...dunk.

I...

As for the 2 stage cleaning process, petrol does the lot plus it evaporates quickly does a great cleaning job.

PTFE won't dissolve in your mixture, in fact it doesn't really dissolve in anything you are likely to find in your garage!

Oh bollox, never mind.

sungod

friction facts did wax lube tests a few years back and sold treated chains too

later on they published their recipe, "1lb of household paraffin wax, 5g of pure ptfe powder, and 1g of pure molybdenum disulfide"

the mixed units are entirely theirs, no mention of ptfe particle size, i'd think really really fine, and ffs don't breath it in as if you do it's probably stuck there forever

more here...

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/arti ... ula-36424/

jermas

If you can get hold of PTFE powder it should work well. It'll probably reduce wear and improve durability. Adding moly (which is also in my mix) will again (like graphite) turn the mix black.

There are some health concerns heating PTFE to a high temperature, but your mix should be well below that temp.

An easily available source of PTFE wax are sticks of fluorinated ski wax- something I was going to try one day.

During my experiments to get a good mix, I found adding oil was essential to make the wax flexible so it would stay on the chain. Also microcystalline wax sticks much better than parrafin wax.
Adding oil changes the consistency considerably. Basically a candle is rock hard as it has no oil in it and vaseline (which is microcrystalline wax with lots of added oil) is very soft.

pinno

What oil did you add jermas?

Thanks for that link SG. Now, I have found this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chain-Oil-Lub ... SwzJ5XXreg

Which if added and providing it doesn't require a high temperature to mix with the solution, will give me the Molybdenum and a lubricant (which is I presume and oil based lubricant).
The other ingredient is PTFE powder. Which I can source.

jermas

I've used that exact oil in the past. It's exceptionally thick and sticky. I doubt it's got much Moly in it as it's clearish and resembles gearbox oil.
Using Moly has no advantage over graphite. They work in a very similar way and will both turn the mix black. Powdered graphite is cheaper and easier to find if you go that route.
If you're trying to make a clean wax I'd try just using PTFE powder mixed with wax and some light machine oil. Synthetic white sewing machine oil can be found cheaply on Ebay.

pinno

I suppose so. I don't want to negate the beauty of being able to just take the chain off and putting it in the mix and I presume any oil would necessitate stripping before dunking. ooer missus.

Graphite powder is readily available. That engine oil additive Super Moly Slip would do but it's black. It contains graphite and Molybdenum.

PTFE as an additive me thinks and some ultra low temp boiling point fine oil.

itboffin

So what's on the the factory KMC chains?

capt_slog

Pinno wrote:

@ Capt Slog: Would there be any benefit to adding PTFE or would you create an emulsion? Would it dissolve in the paraffin/wax mixture?

As for the 2 stage cleaning process, petrol does the lot plus it evaporates quickly does a great cleaning job.

I always thought that PTFE is insoluble, certainly under most conditions that we can generate at normal temps and pressures. As clear as some lubes are, I'm guessing that they are a suspension anyway. Apparently some co-polymers of PTFE (Teflon as trade name) are soluble, but I get the feeling it's not easy and the solvents aren't what you'd find on the shelf of hardware shops.

EDIT I hadn't 'read on' before I wrote the above, I only saw Pinno's question which I see has been adequately answered already

keef66

"I have to bear in mind that the Ambrosia cassette is not the smoothest and I wish they had made it better quality"

I think I have spotted the flaw in your system. Your cassette is made of rice pudding.

pinno

keef66 wrote:

"I have to bear in mind that the Ambrosia cassette is not the smoothest and I wish they had made it better quality"

I think I have spotted the flaw in your system. Your cassette is made of rice pudding.

Not rice pudding per say, reformed wrought iron. It's not as ornate as the genuine article. Anyway, I have a yardstick of the shifting which is in the subconscious. It is a little bit better with the wax but I am not giving up my Campag or those gorgeous Dura Ace wheels, so there.

fudgey

All that just for a clean chain?

I'll stick to what I do I think. 10/10 for effort.

Pasley69

Hi,
very interesting read.

The main enemy of bicycle lubricant in country Australia is the dust it attracts and turns into grinding paste. One alternative I have been trying is to use a dry wax as you describe. Early days yet but certainly everything stays cleaner although now covered in red dust, rather than black gunk.

Have you tried additives in the wax - e.g. graphite, PTFE, zinc oxide (as in STP)? How about aluminium hydroxide powder?
If so, could you comment on your experience.
Cheers
Adrian

pinno

I haven't no.
This stuff contains all of the additives you mentioned.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Molten-Speed ... SwHoFXs3Sy

Not available in the UK. Perhaps you can find it on Oz but I am quite prepared to pay the cost of it plus p+p to give it a go.

Now, I am not waxing chains with 'home brew' because I am a tight wad. I want to find a solution to the constant clean up.
I know there's guys who religiously wipe their chains and re-lube after every ride but I have 2 kids, I work and I have a life off the bike.

Whilst you might have dust, we have some filthy roads - particularly here in a rural area where roads are used constantly for agricultural traffic and the effect is just the same. When I plunge a chain into some form of solvent (usually petrol), the remains are made up of 50% swarf and 50% non-magnetic substances. A grinding paste if ever there was one.

I have temporarily given up on waving because I need a better solution to the lube problems I have had between waxing proper. The waxing lasts for 300 miles but that's not without adding lubricant and that's where I haven't squared the circle yet.
I have tried various quantities of each component of the lubricant with no real longer term benefit. Maybe the Molten speed wax will give the chain a much better adhesion of the wax that then will require less of a top up or a different top up, so to speak.
I'll be back at it in the spring.

keef66

I've always liked the theory of wax containing lubes, and tried more than a couple. I was initially impressed by a sample of Squirt when I saw how it flaked off taking the dirt with it, so I bought a bigger bottle. Trouble was, that was in the summer, when it's easy to keep a chain clean anyway. As soon as the chain got wet it squealed like a piglet, suggesting that it wasn't working well as a lube, or it wasn't tenacious enough to stay on the chain. So in the wetter months I felt I was having to reapply it much more frequently than I would an oil, and then the bits of shed, mucky wax were ending up on the back wheel which didn't seem a good thing on a rim braked bike.

So I concluded they'd be fine in a dry, dusty environment, but in Suffolk not so much, so they sit unloved, gathering dust on the shelf. Maybe I'll use them to embalm components destined for the spares bin, or to coat the chain on the summer bike while it waits for a dry day or the return of british summer-time...

keezx

Pinno wrote:

I have temporarily given up on waving because I need a better solution to the lube problems I have had between waxing proper. The waxing lasts for 300 miles but that's not without adding lubricant and that's where I haven't squared the circle yet.
I have tried various quantities of each component of the lubricant with no real longer term benefit. Maybe the Molten speed wax will give the chain a much better adhesion of the wax that then will require less of a top up or a different top up, so to speak.
I'll be back at it in the spring.

A couple of years ago I performed an experiment in the winter with pure candlewax.
Altough I was satified with the "stay clean" properties , the lubricating and durability of the stuff was not so good, after 3 wet rides the chain became noisy and rusty and needed extra lubing with oil or whatever.
After evaluting this I came to the conclusion that solid lubricants like wax don't work sufficiant because a lubricant needs to be able to move back to the parts where it is pressed away during the pull of the chain, and solid stuff like wax (or grease in lesser quantity) don't do that.
What you need is a thick fluid which can move in the chain and lubricates continuously.

pinno

It works in the summer and seen as we didn't get a summer...

fudgey

Your all dong it wrong. I ride my bike most days in all winds an weather. I oil the chain with whatever oil i have. Currently 3-in-1 and when it starts to make noise ill oil it again.
The bike gets washed occasionally, yes the chain/cassette go black but once a year ill strip the bugger down and give it a good seeing to. Like this weekend, the worn chain went in the bin and gear cables replaced. Everything else properly cleaned and reassembled. It was almost like riding a new bike today. And its filthy again....
Life is too short. Just ride the damn things

pinno

Fudgey wrote:

...the worn chain went in the bin and gear cables replaced. Everything else properly cleaned and reassembled. It was almost like riding a new bike today. And its filthy again....
Life is too short. Just ride the damn things

But you said it.

If I can sort that damn lube problem - a DIY wax lube that sits well with the waxing, I would have the perfect set up.

It is so easy to take the chain off and plunge it into the hot wax/paraffin mix and hey presto - a clean, waxed, lubricated low friction chain pops out.
It's the longevity of that new bike feel and gear change that it virtually impossible to achieve without a complete strip down. Whether you use conventional lubricants or home brew wax jobs (ooer missus), the result is similar - brey/black chain and cassette within 100 miles.
I will say that the home wax job keeps it running smoother for a bit longer (even though it's gone that funny colour) than conventional lubricants. But you have to start lubing at some point as taking the chain off every 100 miles and sticking it on to hot wax would be one hell of a faff.

I will try the Molten speed wax combined with a commercial wax lube and see if you can put the chain back into the wax without any solvent based pre-cleaning. The only thing with the Molten speed wax apparently, is that it goes black very quickly.
I like my transmission all squeaky clean, silver and purring along.
Short of moving to southern California, I don't know what the solution is.

I must admit, I love that new bike feeling and those gears purring along and I strip the transmission a lot more frequently than once a year - probably 3 times in the summer and half a dozen in the winter. I probably use 2 to 3 new sets of quick links in the process.

After a hot wax lube, the transmission has an unsurpassed smoothness; it's addictive. Maintaining that is another matter.

zefs

You could try the Squirt wax or buy a squirt bottle to pour your homemade one in instead of having to dip the chain each time, might not be as good as dipping the whole chain but it's simpler.

pinno

zefs wrote:

You could try the Squirt wax or buy a squirt bottle to pour your homemade one in instead of having to dip the chain each time, might not be as good as dipping the whole chain but it's simpler.

Oh I made up a paraffin/thinner (xylene)/wax lube that I put in an old muck-off squeezy bottle. As I said, I tried all manner of combinations.

That's the problem - it really doesn't lube the chain in a way that a commercial wax lubricant does and if you do use a commercial wax lubricant (Muck off wet for example), there's no cleaning the chain by the dunking it in the hot wax method; you have to use a solvent.

It negates the beauty of putting the chain in hot wax and the chain coming out sparkly clean and waxed without the use of solvents.