Deep Aero Wheels

meanredspider

ChippyK wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Yeah - by all means but some. I have some RS80 C50s that I bought when they were stupidly cheap around the time the RS81s came out. At the time I was regularly riding very flat but windy centuries around the Markermeer in NL. I honestly have no idea whether they helped but when you're doing 50-60k directly into a headwind on an exposed raised cycle path, I'm sure they helped mentally. Clip-on aero bars made far more of a difference though. As did a few degrees of warmth. I'd be riding at closer 30kmh rather than 45kmh though and they may or may not be more useful at that speed.

I used to live next to the Gooimeer, there was very little I found more dispiriting than heading home into a strong headwind on a straight cycle path by the lake. It felt like you weren't moving.

I think it may be why the Dutch pros have been good climbers (if they have) - after many 10s of km riding into a brutal headwind in a featureless landscape, riding up a big hill feels like fun.

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

Are we too materialistic? Yes, probably many people are ... but does that matter? If they have the money, why should it not be spent?

You're not going to change consumerism by encouraging people not to spend money whenever they feel like it.

I think we are too different to even start a conversation about consumerism, so better leave it there.
I just want to say that I truly believe the quality of life of people has dropped dramatically because of consumerism... I'd rather be 35 years older than my nephew (as I am) than be in shoes... a generation surrounded by technology and things and bored to death most of the time... incapable of seeing beyond enterteinment having to come from things specifically designed to entertain in one way only.
I had friends addicted to drugs... a few died, some got out of drugs, some continued learning to manage the addiction... I am not sure my nephew's generation will ever be able to get out from the addiction to technology... and it is sad, very sad, because the experience is shoot and not even fun like drugs...

Ironically, the kids in their 20's today actually care far more about ethics and the environment than my generation and I think are far more of your beliefs, Ugo (as I understand them), than older people.

I'm just not sure how you get the wealth creation that's needed to help people out of poverty and drive improvement in world health without some degree of consumerism. If there is a way, I'd (genuinely) like to hear about it.

Better rename this thread Deep Consumerism Debate

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

Are we too materialistic? Yes, probably many people are ... but does that matter? If they have the money, why should it not be spent?

You're not going to change consumerism by encouraging people not to spend money whenever they feel like it.

I think we are too different to even start a conversation about consumerism, so better leave it there.
I just want to say that I truly believe the quality of life of people has dropped dramatically because of consumerism... I'd rather be 35 years older than my nephew (as I am) than be in shoes... a generation surrounded by technology and things and bored to death most of the time... incapable of seeing beyond enterteinment having to come from things specifically designed to entertain in one way only.
I had friends addicted to drugs... a few died, some got out of drugs, some continued learning to manage the addiction... I am not sure my nephew's generation will ever be able to get out from the addiction to technology... and it is sad, very sad, because the experience is shoot and not even fun like drugs...

Ironically, the kids in their 20's today actually care far more about ethics and the environment than my generation and I think are far more of your beliefs, Ugo (as I understand them), than older people.

I'm just not sure how you get the wealth creation that's needed to help people out of poverty and drive improvement in world health without some degree of consumerism. If there is a way, I'd (genuinely) like to hear about it.

Better rename this thread Deep Consumerism Debate

Probably a British thing, when I was 16 I was a member of the Italian Communist Party and was all into pro Palestinian debates... it was common back then... as well as being environmentally conscious... I guess the Internet has extended the phenomenon to the island too...

How did we create wealth before being extreme shopoholics? Making things? Services other than retail? Better distribution of wealth so that there is actually no need to drag people out of poverty? Would it be so bad to have salary caps, tax on large inheritance and get rid of the super-rich, who are basically parassites?

GDP is an indicator, but it's meaningless... you make way more GDP if everyone is in theraphy for diabetes than if everyone is healthy, so in itself it is a rotten indicator of the state of a nation

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Probably a British thing, when I was 16 I was a member of the Italian Communist Party and was all into pro Palestinian debates... it was common back then... as well as being environmentally conscious... I guess the Internet has extended the phenomenon to the island too...

How did we create wealth before being extreme shopoholics? Making things? Services other than retail? Better distribution of wealth so that there is actually no need to drag people out of poverty? Would it be so bad to have salary caps, tax on large inheritance and get rid of the super-rich, who are basically parassites?

GDP is an indicator, but it's meaningless... you make way more GDP if everyone is in theraphy for diabetes than if everyone is healthy, so in itself it is a rotten indicator of the state of a nation

Britain is a nation of shopkeepers (I think it was some bloke from France that said that - so we defeated his army, stuck him on an island in the Atlantic, and continued to develop the biggest empire the world has ever seen )

Before being shopaholics? Off the backs of surfs and slaves mostly. Then we made things in dirty factories. Then we moved the dirty factories somewhere else and sold each other services. Those people who are working in the dirty factories abroad are now getting more wealthy and more consumeristic.

The trouble is sorting the super-rich "parasites" from the super-rich wealth creators.

It's a difficult problem. I think that the Nordics have got closest to what I believe is a good model. High tax and high welfare - but there's a way of thinking that goes with that approach.

bendertherobot

Back to the OP. No idea. At some point there's a graph which will demonstrate how the lighter Enve will travel in comparison to the heavier but, it appears, more aero HED. On a particular course, on a particular day.

And I have to say, that there's another graph somewhere that shows how Campag bullets at £600 fair in comparison to the HED in terms of the same data.

If you'd owned Aksium then, Ugo's good points aside, I'd say get the HED for 'those days.' But you own some pretty bloody great wheels there.

bendertherobot

And, to add, not knowing what your current bike is, this with your Enve is likely to be faster than your current bike with HED, gut feeling.

http://www.pedalon.co.uk/acatalog/giant ... AqnT8P8HAQ

kingrollo

I brought my deep section rims for no other reason than they look good.

-There are people doing a lot worse things.

dinyull

This place can descend into a proper c*nt fest at times.

ugo.santalucia

Dinyull wrote:

This place can descend into a proper c*nt fest at times.

So what you think a good piece of advice would be, something along the lines of

"Go for it mate, if there are 3 seconds out there for the grab in your traning ride, why leave them? If you can afford them..."

simon_masterson

If you're new to TTs, get some cheap clip ons and see if you get the bug, and if you do, spend your money on a TT rig. I'd rather ride a TT bike with shallower wheels; and you can pick up a disc and deep front wheel for a few hundred anyway.

slowbike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

This place can descend into a proper c*nt fest at times.

So what you think a good piece of advice would be, something along the lines of

"Go for it mate, if there are 3 seconds out there for the grab in your traning ride, why leave them? If you can afford them..."

No different to "don't spend your money on frivolous items"

dinyull

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

This place can descend into a proper c*nt fest at times.

So what you think a good piece of advice would be, something along the lines of

"Go for it mate, if there are 3 seconds out there for the grab in your traning ride, why leave them? If you can afford them..."

No, a good piece of advice would have been "probably no different to what you've got" not the farce that followed about economic tends ffs.

There is such good knowledge on here, and decent craic too but at times it's f*cking cringe worthy.

ugo.santalucia

Dinyull wrote:

No, a good piece of advice would have been "probably no different to what you've got" not the farce that followed about economic tends ffs.

.

I don't think that was part of the advice... it was a diversion, an off topic... you can read it or not read it... my fault, I have just become allergic to the seemingly ubiquitous advice of "buy whatever you want and can afford to buy"... I am sure the OP can use a molecular sieve and just filter off the comments he is not interested in.

My real advice was: no, because it's pointless and if you do TT, look at the regulations re. deep front wheels

bianchimoon

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

This place can descend into a proper c*nt fest at times.

So what you think a good piece of advice would be, something along the lines of

"Go for it mate, if there are 3 seconds out there for the grab in your traning ride, why leave them? If you can afford them..."

Actually, that's better advice than most of the stuff posted so far

chrisjohnsen

It is a bit funny to read how a question about getting a new set of wheels can turn into a debate about consumerism, environment and how the "young" are addicted to technology and not interested in the state of the world and that their lives are uninteresting and dull. I understand that the wheels will only give me "marginal gains" and not revolutionize how it feels to ride a bike. I was interested in if they would provide a different ride quality and a fun experience. I own four different bikes that all basically have two wheels, a saddle and a handle bar. But I use them for different things and have a different experience on each one. All for fun and good exercise.

meanredspider

chrisjohnsen wrote:

It is a bit funny to read how a question about getting a new set of wheels can turn into a debate about consumerism, environment and how the "young" are addicted to technology and not interested in the state of the world and that their lives are uninteresting and dull. I understand that the wheels will only give me "marginal gains" and not revolutionize how it feels to ride a bike. I was interested in if they would provide a different ride quality and a fun experience. I own four different bikes that all basically have two wheels, a saddle and a handle bar. But I use them for different things and have a different experience on each one. All for fun and good exercise.

Yeah - though the thread would have been a bit dull if it had just been:

"They will probably give you a very small gain"

Though I hadn't expected it to take quite the swerves Ugo has introduced. The irony is that he used to build wheels for people who probably mostly didn't "need" them - after all, a cheap pair of used RS10s are usually available on eBay.

imposter2.0

chrisjohnsen wrote:

It is a bit funny to read how a question about getting a new set of wheels can turn into a debate about consumerism, environment and how the "young" are addicted to technology and not interested in the state of the world and that their lives are uninteresting and dull.

Are you new to the internet?

chrisjohnsen wrote:

I understand that the wheels will only give me "marginal gains" and not revolutionize how it feels to ride a bike. I was interested in if they would provide a different ride quality and a fun experience. I own four different bikes that all basically have two wheels, a saddle and a handle bar. But I use them for different things and have a different experience on each one. All for fun and good exercise.

If you are only measuring your own improvement outside of competition, then it seems a bit daft to seek artificial ways of improving. I can understand wanting to gain seconds in a competitive environment, but when the only improvement you are measuring is your own, then aero kit kind of makes such improvements a bit fake, that's all. But go for it if you want, it's your money.

napoleond

Get the ones you want. 90mm rims such as the Hed Jet 9 are legal for CTT time trials, there is a 45% open area rule so the deep H3D trispoke, the now no longer made Zipp 1080 and most carbon 5 spokes are not legal for CTT.
However I reckon from my experience the sweet spot for a road bike in terms of aero benefit, weight, handling and stability is 60mm

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

Though I hadn't expected it to take quite the swerves Ugo has introduced. The irony is that he used to build wheels for people who probably mostly didn't "need" them - after all, a cheap pair of used RS10s are usually available on eBay.

yes and no... mostly it was a case of people upgrading from shockingly bad stock wheels or scalded by failures of low spoke count factory wheelsets... some were very heavy riders, others had a multi thousand mile trip in mind with panniers... some only wanted to save some weight and when they asked for advice, they generally got a similar lowdown (although maybe not the part about consumerism)... I have built remarkably few deep section carbon wheels... a dozen pair maybe.

ugo.santalucia

NapoleonD wrote:

Get the ones you want. 90mm rims such as the Hed Jet 9 are legal for CTT time trials, there is a 45% open area rule so the deep H3D trispoke, the now no longer made Zipp 1080 and most carbon 5 spokes are not legal for CTT.
However I reckon from my experience the sweet spot for a road bike in terms of aero benefit, weight, handling and stability is 60mm

Thanks for clarifying this... I thought 90 mm were borderline 45%, just wasn't sure which side of the border

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Though I hadn't expected it to take quite the swerves Ugo has introduced. The irony is that he used to build wheels for people who probably mostly didn't "need" them - after all, a cheap pair of used RS10s are usually available on eBay.

yes and no... mostly it was a case of people upgrading from shockingly bad stock wheels or scalded by failures of low spoke count factory wheelsets... some were very heavy riders, others had a multi thousand mile trip in mind with panniers... some only wanted to save some weight and when they asked for advice, they generally got a similar lowdown (although maybe not the part about consumerism)... I have built remarkably few deep section carbon wheels... a dozen pair maybe.

Yup - but in a world without rampant consumerism, reusing a pair of RS10s* would be "adequate" for most jobs. Anything more is just degrees of consumerism. I wasn't having a go but just pointing out how easy it is to be part of the problem.

* or bog-standard wheel of your choice available used sub £100

thomasmorris

If you're racing professionally you'd be able to weigh up speed improvements against how much extra winnings you'd be able to get. But that's the only case where you could really do a proper investment versus return analysis of whether the purchase is 'worth it''.

But we're talking about a hobby here. Only you can say how much fun you're having and whether that was worth the cash for you.

A deeper wheel won't improve the quality of your workout from a physical point of view. So if you're only riding your bike to stay fit and improve yourself physically, then spending any money more than just keeping the bike in working order would be a waste.

However, for some people, trying out different equipment and putting together a well engineered machine is part of the 'hobby' and is of much interest as improving physically. I don't think there is anything wrong with this; however, it's impossible for anyone else to tell you whether that is money well spent. If you're competing in races you may define 'well engineered' as whichever is fastest, for people who aren't well engineered many mean comfy but quite fast... but essentially most people doing cycling as a hobby lay somewhere on this scale.

I think what the OP is asking is a more specific question though... will the HED 6 or 9 wheels be faster for the same effort than the Enve 3.4. The answer is generally yes, but you may want to consult specific testing on wheel tyre combinations to confirm this (and it maybe be marginal enough that frame and yaw angle variation could effect it). Is it worth the cash? Well, as the return on the investment is 'value of fun' and not race winnings, only you can answer that.

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Though I hadn't expected it to take quite the swerves Ugo has introduced. The irony is that he used to build wheels for people who probably mostly didn't "need" them - after all, a cheap pair of used RS10s are usually available on eBay.

yes and no... mostly it was a case of people upgrading from shockingly bad stock wheels or scalded by failures of low spoke count factory wheelsets... some were very heavy riders, others had a multi thousand mile trip in mind with panniers... some only wanted to save some weight and when they asked for advice, they generally got a similar lowdown (although maybe not the part about consumerism)... I have built remarkably few deep section carbon wheels... a dozen pair maybe.

Yup - but in a world without rampant consumerism, reusing a pair of RS10s* would be "adequate" for most jobs. Anything more is just degrees of consumerism. I wasn't having a go but just pointing out how easy it is to be part of the problem.

* or bog-standard wheel of your choice available used sub £100

I am only against the extremes of consumerism... I am not advocating for the 21st century equivalent of the Trabant... I am aware that we need to buy things to drive the economy and to allow people to make them... I am just against retail therapy as a substitute to a real life.

Every single time I went to a recycling centre (and I tend to go when other people normally can't, like 2PM on a wednesday) I had to queue... the amount of stuff people throw away is phenomenal... I am clearly part of the problem for the simple fact that I go there... but I like to think I am not addicted to shopping...

I do 9000 miles per year
, including daily commutes and I own two bikes that are not worth very much... I'd say I am below average

burnthesheep

Anything aero and people get indignant. "You're not racing", "you're not fast enough", etc......

So by that logic anyone not racing should own Sora or Tiagra components and ride a t-barred commuter with panniers......because if we're not racing......it doesn't matter.

When I hear that stuff, I'm willing to bet that half the time the person being indignant isn't the biggest fitness buff in the world either.

You're not Tiger Woods, so why own that fancy driver or set of irons? You're not Messi so why do you wear his jersey? :roll:

Either way the take home points are:
-math and studies show that fast AND slow people benefit, fast people in watts and slow people in time on the course
-they look amazing (you did choose a color of bike or a cool looking bike too, right?)
-it's your money

Ignore the haters and decide if the wattage or time difference (or looks) is worth it. If so find a set in the durability, effectiveness, and cost range that works for you.

I simply cannot believe we are arguing about consumerism on a bike forum. It's like arguing that nobody should own a cool car on a car forum. You don't NEED or won't use the 700hp and 200mph in that new Porsche or Corvette, are you? You're not a race car driver.

Sheesh.

DavidJB

ugo.santalucia wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Though I hadn't expected it to take quite the swerves Ugo has introduced. The irony is that he used to build wheels for people who probably mostly didn't "need" them - after all, a cheap pair of used RS10s are usually available on eBay.

yes and no... mostly it was a case of people upgrading from shockingly bad stock wheels or scalded by failures of low spoke count factory wheelsets... some were very heavy riders, others had a multi thousand mile trip in mind with panniers... some only wanted to save some weight and when they asked for advice, they generally got a similar lowdown (although maybe not the part about consumerism)... I have built remarkably few deep section carbon wheels... a dozen pair maybe.

Yup - but in a world without rampant consumerism, reusing a pair of RS10s* would be "adequate" for most jobs. Anything more is just degrees of consumerism. I wasn't having a go but just pointing out how easy it is to be part of the problem.

* or bog-standard wheel of your choice available used sub £100

I am only against the extremes of consumerism... I am not advocating for the 21st century equivalent of the Trabant... I am aware that we need to buy things to drive the economy and to allow people to make them... I am just against retail therapy as a substitute to a real life.

Every single time I went to a recycling centre (and I tend to go when other people normally can't, like 2PM on a wednesday) I had to queue... the amount of stuff people throw away is phenomenal... I am clearly part of the problem for the simple fact that I go there... but I like to think I am not addicted to shopping...

I do 9000 miles per year
, including daily commutes and I own two bikes that are not worth very much... I'd say I am below average

No one gives a toss mate. Honestly.

AK_jnr

burnthesheep wrote:

You're not Tiger Woods, so why own that fancy driver or set of irons? You're not Messi so why do you wear his jersey? :roll:

Either way the take home points are:
-math and studies show that fast AND slow people benefit, fast people in watts and slow people in time on the course
-they look amazing (you did choose a color of bike or a cool looking bike too, right?)
-it's your money

Ignore the haters and decide if the wattage or time difference (or looks) is worth it. If so find a set in the durability, effectiveness, and cost range that works for you.

I simply cannot believe we are arguing about consumerism on a bike forum. It's like arguing that nobody should own a cool car on a car forum. You don't NEED or won't use the 700hp and 200mph in that new Porsche or Corvette, are you? You're not a race car driver.

Sheesh.

People who are sh1t but have the top of the range gear, be it bike, wheels, clubs, football boots just gives us something to laugh at so I am all for it.

slowbike

AK_jnr wrote:

burnthesheep wrote:

You're not Tiger Woods, so why own that fancy driver or set of irons? You're not Messi so why do you wear his jersey? :roll:

Either way the take home points are:
-math and studies show that fast AND slow people benefit, fast people in watts and slow people in time on the course
-they look amazing (you did choose a color of bike or a cool looking bike too, right?)
-it's your money

Ignore the haters and decide if the wattage or time difference (or looks) is worth it. If so find a set in the durability, effectiveness, and cost range that works for you.

I simply cannot believe we are arguing about consumerism on a bike forum. It's like arguing that nobody should own a cool car on a car forum. You don't NEED or won't use the 700hp and 200mph in that new Porsche or Corvette, are you? You're not a race car driver.

Sheesh.

People who are sh1t but have the top of the range gear, be it bike, wheels, clubs, football boots just gives us something to laugh at so I am all for it.

It's easily coined as "All the gear and No Idea" ...

it's funniest when the owner/rider/wearer recognises the fact that they've got it all but don't quite know what to do with it.

ugo.santalucia

burnthesheep wrote:

-math and studies show that fast AND slow people benefit, fast people in watts and slow people in time on the course
-they look amazing (you did choose a color of bike or a cool looking bike too, right?)
-it's your money

1) If there is a course to race on, then yes

2) In the specific going from ENVE 3.4 to HED JET 6 (or 9) is without doubt a downgrade in that respect... I thought fairings and alloy rims were the thing to have 10 years ago...

3) ... obviously... as discussed in too much detail already

ugo.santalucia

Slowbike wrote:

it's funniest when the owner/rider/wearer recognises the fact that they've got it all but don't quite know what to do with it.

Best was a guy with a pair of carbon tubulars and a spare inner tube... he didn't know he had tubulars or what was the difference... chapeau

meanredspider

burnthesheep wrote:

I simply cannot believe we are arguing about consumerism on a bike forum. It's like arguing that nobody should own a cool car on a car forum. You don't NEED or won't use the 700hp and 200mph in that new Porsche or Corvette, are you? You're not a race car driver.

Agreed - you can get away with a 69bhp Fiat 500 (and have a lot of fun). I deliberately bought the lower-powered version of my road car because there's absolutely no use for the big-engined version and I rejected a couple of cars because they were far too competent for road use.