The state of the bike industry today

meanredspider

Steve-XcT wrote:

The problem is less the LBS than the supply chain.
Shim-SRAM-nolo have basically sewn up the supply chain so that not only can the consumer not deal with the manufacturer but neither can the LBS who have to go through a distributor....

The trend I see in consumer goods is more direct sales from manufacturers - I think that this will generally be a Good Thing: better availability and aftersales follow up.

burnthesheep

I feel like LBS's and automotive INDY shops often tie themselves ball and chain to one or two parts sources. That source dries up on a part and the customer is left hanging.

Why? Use Amazon, use the massive online internet warehouse.

You know your profit margin for parts, if the customer wants it faster quote the customer with what you can get.

In terms of "the state of the industry".........one good thing I surely hopes happens is the legitimacy and growth of fully branded Chinese carbon wheels. No reason on God's green Earth a set of 60mm hoops should be $1200 when an entire carbon bike can be had for the same. I'm cheering for places like Yoeleo, iCan, and Superteam. An aero wheel is old-tech at the basic level now. Sure, some profiles are cutting edge. But the 80% for the 20% has been around 5 years now.

No reason aero wheels should cost the same as a frame that has more tech and complexity in it.

ugo.santalucia

The most annoying thing about bike shops, unlike any oher shop, is that if you are not a regular customer they basically ignore you from the moment you walk in... it goes against any logic of the retail industry and I believe is partially responsible for the disfunctional relationship with customers they "enjoy". I could be a time waster or someone with 5 grand to spend but if they don't engage they will never know

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The most annoying thing about bike shops, unlike any oher shop, is that if you are not a regular customer they basically ignore you from the moment you walk in... it goes against any logic of the retail industry and I believe is partially responsible for the disfunctional relationship with customers they "enjoy". I could be a time waster or someone with 5 grand to spend but if they don't engage they will never know

That's a spot-on observation - at least in the UK. In NL, my experience couldn't have been more different and I was on chatting terms with the staff of both of my LBSs by my second visit.

btiratsoo

This:

Steve-XcT wrote:

The problem is less the LBS than the supply chain.
Shim-SRAM-nolo have basically sewn up the supply chain so that not only can the consumer not deal with the manufacturer but neither can the LBS who have to go through a distributor....

And this:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The most annoying thing about bike shops, unlike any oher shop, is that if you are not a regular customer they basically ignore you from the moment you walk in... it goes against any logic of the retail industry and I believe is partially responsible for the disfunctional relationship with customers they "enjoy". I could be a time waster or someone with 5 grand to spend but if they don't engage they will never know

Regardless of special relationships etc etc etc, how is an LBS supposed to survive if the main supply chain that they need can't support them? If the popularity of cycling is increasing, then surely the supply chain should be increasing at least at a similar rate, if not trying to beat the demand. Then again, if demand outstrips supply, then prices can be held/ increase.

Shit, maybe it is all a massive conspiracy?!?!?

On a more serious note, is there anything stopping an LBS ordering the parts from a foreign shop that has it in stock to keep the custom or do they stand to be punished by the distributor if they found out?

veronese68

btiratsoo wrote:

On a more serious note, is there anything stopping an LBS ordering the parts from a foreign shop that has it in stock to keep the custom or do they stand to be punished by the distributor if they found out?

I think that is the kind of thing distributors get shirty about, but the EU says they can't stop it as it's anti-competition or something. Most shops probably wouldn't bother I suspect.
Pricing is hardly fair from distributor to LBS either. I bought my frame and brakes from a respected LBS on ride to work, the groupset I bought online from a UK supplier. The LBS said they couldn't buy the groupset for what I paid for it, hardly surprising shops are loathe to keep much in stock.

trek_dan

Find a good local 'works from home' type mechanic that doesn't sell parts and buy the parts yourself. I've been doing this for years when there's stuff I don't have time to fit myself or can't be bothered with. Most decent bike mechanics work for themselves eventually so they don't have to put up with ridiculous workloads and scraping by on minimum wage in shops. My favorite mechanic even collects my bike from work free of charge so its actually more convenient than a LBS.

rubertoe

I went into my new LBS a few weeks ago and they were less than helpful, they could supply the wheelset that i wanted, however it would take 2-3 weeks to get in store as they obviously don't carry the stock and they certainly couldn't get them for me at a competitive price.

Generally, I'll only use the LBS for consumables and if i want a bike stripping to the frame for a service.

Anonymous

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The most annoying thing about bike shops, unlike any oher shop, is that if you are not a regular customer they basically ignore you from the moment you walk in... it goes against any logic of the retail industry and I believe is partially responsible for the disfunctional relationship with customers they "enjoy". I could be a time waster or someone with 5 grand to spend but if they don't engage they will never know

Bike shops are weird in many ways. I think its mainly because cyclists are an extra weird type of human (most of which are pretty weird anyway).

People moan about shops (and the service they give) of all types.
My opinion (experience of retail) is that its usually customer driven, and probably none more so than bike shops, because of what their customers expect, and annoyingly, get away with.

I am not sure that normal customers get ignored for any reason other than busy or lazy staff (who are on min wage because no one wants to pay for anything!), but select customers certainly get sucked up to, and I think this is the problem.

People on here are always threatening bike shops with denial of their cash (and gloating in their possible closure) unless they suck up to them, sell stuff at next to no profit, and allow them to que jump etc etc.

I think a lot of people these days are in complete denial of what fair/good service, and a good shop/customer relationship actually is.
When this reality is ignored, it leaves only the people who feel they are underserved, and the ones that gloat about being sucked up to ( in a "you paid how much for that hotel room?" type way).

Going back to what you said Ugo. Regular customers probably expect way to much in return for their regular custom, the time wasters are probably happy to be ignored, and the guy with 5k to spend is probably too far up his own ar5e to ask for help and will get far more enjoyment from having 'gone somewhere else' and moaning about it on a forum anyway.

The customer that wants the undivided instant attention of half the shop when he/she has 5k to spend, is probably the same one that thinks 'go away you sniveling little cretin' when he/she just wants to browse.

dinyull

Feel the OP's pain.

Ridiculous that in this day and age you can order something from Germany, in a day or 3 but the main UK distributor can't deliver to a shop in a couple of weeks.

Sometimes think the attitudes in shops are completely wrong, willing and happy to replace a chain/cable/something easy to hand, but as soon as something complicated goes wrong it's a head scratch, grimace and a ooh. They sometimes don't even check if they have the part or if one is available from the distributor.

One of the best things I've done is learn how to do my own work (hydraulic brakes apart!). If I relied upon LBS commuting wouldn't be economical and the bike would be in and out of the shop most weeks with all of the fettling.

Anonymous

As I said earlier though, its not just bike shops, its the way of the world and I think people need to start looking a lot closer to home for the reasons.

Maybe you should be grateful that 'in this day and age' we can get something from Germany or Spain or wherever next day, rather than expect a shop in the UK (with all the issues it will have) to do the same.

Why whinge when its a bike part that you need someone else to fit, when, if it were a jacket that was two weeks UK main dealer at list price, or next day from Spain at a discount, you would just click 'buy' and forget all about it (apart from maybe a little bit of bragging/gloating)?

All sounds a bit 'snowflake' to me.

You are right though Dinyall, it is a bit ridiculous.
Question is, what are we doing to fix it?

I am guessing most people don't give enough of a t055 to do anything, and are just going to buy jackets from Spain and brakes from Germany, to take on that cycling holiday where the hotel was 'the best possible price'.

Like I said, look closer to home for the reasons its the way it is.

First.Aspect

Carbonator wrote:

Question is, what are we doing to fix it?

What can we do?
I think as consumers we get sold some pretty crap cycling equipment and we are constantly fecked around with pointless "innovation". As a scientist/engineer I can tell the difference between "different" and "better".

I vowed, after shelling out £100 a few years ago for a Shimano brifter that broke when you inadvertently tried shifting to the redundant third position on the front mech, that I'd boycott Shimano next time.

The next time came along and it was either Shimano or a 6-month wait for the equivalent SRAM parts. Why? SRAM dedicated pretty much all their stock to new bikes. So, even if I could somehow get the parts, if they broke, I'd be unable to fix them. The same presumably applies to all the people who bought complete bikes with those parts on them.

So, I stuck with Shimano. But now Shimano have shifted to an entirely unnecessary new standard, moving away from a perfectly good standard from the mtb world, and dedicated all of their manufacturing to this new standard. So the poor sods who bought the old standard thinking it was well established are now forced to feed on the crumbs they supply to that market.

Campag seem to build about one groupset a week, for people with double jointed thumbs, and the rest are so niche they aren't worth looking at.

Is the issue here the wholesaler? Are they the equivalent of the supermarket with crap stock control, operating in a consequence free environment, because their customers have no option and they are insulated from the end user?

dinyull

I'd put it at the door of the distributors, but then you don't know how much they're suffering on the back of the last downturn and the supposed bottom falling out of the biking market.


FWIW, the wheels on my disc brake commuter have just disintegrated and instead of replacing them I'm gonna sell the frame and brakes and go back to rim brakes. Although the benefits of disc's in the wet (both braking and wear) appeal, the constant fettling needed to avoid rubbing and level pull has put me off. Whilst some of that can be solved with thru-axle and hydraulic, up keep scares me and the price is ridiculous.

jgsi

Dinyull wrote:

I'd put it at the door of the distributors, but then you don't know how much they're suffering on the back of the last downturn and the supposed bottom falling out of the biking market.


FWIW, the wheels on my disc brake commuter have just disintegrated and instead of replacing them I'm gonna sell the frame and brakes and go back to rim brakes. Although the benefits of disc's in the wet (both braking and wear) appeal, the constant fettling needed to avoid rubbing and level pull has put me off. Whilst some of that can be solved with thru-axle and hydraulic, up keep scares me and the price is ridiculous.

https://youtu.be/Ww4v2cP-MDo

Anonymous

First Aspect wrote:

Carbonator wrote:

Question is, what are we doing to fix it?

What can we do?

I don't think it can be fixed, I was just highlighting that we don't have the resolve to fix it anyway lol.

Understanding its our (some of us more than others 8) ) actions (historically) that have led to the situation, may ease the pain a little though.

surrey_commuter

Post Brexit will it be harder to buy retail from Spain/Germany and if so will things get worse in the U.K. As there will be less alternatives.

sancho_panza

The only time I have ever had anything like this problem is the last time I rode my bike in the UK. That was summer 2010 and a bike shop in the Scottish central belt said it could change cables...maybe in ten days' time.

Before that I lived in Chile for three years - terrific service; and since then in western Switzerland and south east France; again the shops I use are absolutely top notch and I've never heard of having to book in so far in advance, or wait for parts. Fix broken spokes on Boras? Two working days, for example; if in stock, next day...

Is it something that has been borne out of the internet age and the massive diversification of parts and spares? Or is it that bikes in Blighty break lots because the weather's awful, the roads are abominable and people ride a lot?

Whatever it is it sounds like a peculiarly British problem. Interesting to hear from other Europeans (which we can call ourselves in the brexit era) and aussies and US.

Sancho P

rolf_f

First Aspect wrote:

Carbonator wrote:

Question is, what are we doing to fix it?

What can we do?
I think as consumers we get sold some pretty crap cycling equipment and we are constantly fecked around with pointless "innovation". As a scientist/engineer I can tell the difference between "different" and "better".

As a scientist and engineer you should quite easily have worked out what you can do (ie at least solving the issue from your own perspective); have spare parts, know what you are going to do if something breaks, contingency planning etc.

In my case, if I need to get to work in a hurry and find a tyre has been visited by the PF overnight, I swap the wheel for another. If for some reason I can't do that I get on the touring bike. If a component breaks, I swap it over for the one I have in the spares drawer that I got as a bargain before I needed it. If I rode only at weekends I probably wouldn't bother but for the commuting I don't want the bother of having to source stuff in a hurry. And of course, I know how to fit it myself.

You're right though; a personal solution isn't an answer for all - too much pointless innovation that does little other than to drive us to buy more crap does not help. I wonder what the trendy wheel size for MTBs will be this year; my money is on 28.05. Which is why I stick with Campag that hardly changes and has worked for years and is repairable! My thumbs are not double jointed

PS crap service not limited to UK - I've been mucked about re spoke replacement in Norway when touring. And I had the spoke on me! (Had to fit and true it myself by the shop counter.......)

ugo.santalucia

Discs are making things worse in this respect... there are I think in excess of 20 types of brake pads... every time I need pads it's a half an hour journey to remember which ones I need, how to source them etc...

Of course rim brakes are also becoming increasingly fussy, with 5-6 compounds to be matched to different track materials (carbon, alloy, ceramic etc...) plus the wizardry of carbon rims that only work with that particular pad... being that blue, red or yellow and does the colour have a code or is it random, just like Viagra being blue but Cialis yellow?

And how about bearings? Of course one diamter means you can invent a dozen different standards that are incompatible for the sake of a degree or two of sloe in the outer race... clearance? C3 won't work if it's not meant for C3...

Then add a world of small incompatibilities... those dropouts that only work with that type of axle, that cassette that despite being 10 speed doesn't fit that freehub... that quarter of a millimeter mismatch that means you can't ride a bike... that derailleur that only works if matched with that particular vintage of shifter... neither the previous year nor the following will...

mrfpb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Discs are making things worse in this respect... there are I think in excess of 20 types of brake pads... every time I need pads it's a half an hour journey to remember which ones I need, how to source them etc...

Of course rim brakes are also becoming increasingly fussy, with 5-6 compounds to be matched to different track materials (carbon, alloy, ceramic etc...) plus the wizardry of carbon rims that only work with that particular pad... being that blue, red or yellow and does the colour have a code or is it random, just like Viagra being blue but Cialis yellow?

And how about bearings? Of course one diamter means you can invent a dozen different standards that are incompatible for the sake of a degree or two of sloe in the outer race... clearance? C3 won't work if it's not meant for C3...

Then add a world of small incompatibilities... those dropouts that only work with that type of axle, that cassette that despite being 10 speed doesn't fit that freehub... that quarter of a millimeter mismatch that means you can't ride a bike... that derailleur that only works if matched with that particular vintage of shifter... neither the previous year nor the following will...

But don't these issues also apply to getting your car fixed? I remember as a kid my family holiday almost being ruined because a mechanic gave the wrong VW filter to my dad, who forced it on to the wrong thread. The catalogue no. was one digit different. But that is one incident in 40 years of motoring that I remember ie the exception rather than the rule. And it took less than 24hrs to sort out. The ability to get to work on your bike or be ready for a big event should not require a wait of two or three weeks for parts and servicing.

Re disc brake pads, i had the same issue until a Decathlon store opened near me, now I can take the pad in and compare it directly with the ones on dispay but then I have a similar issue replacing light bulbs now as there are about four types on my house and about thirty "standards" in B&Q. The issue is easy availability, not the range of standards.

ugo.santalucia

mrfpb wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Discs are making things worse in this respect... there are I think in excess of 20 types of brake pads... every time I need pads it's a half an hour journey to remember which ones I need, how to source them etc...

Of course rim brakes are also becoming increasingly fussy, with 5-6 compounds to be matched to different track materials (carbon, alloy, ceramic etc...) plus the wizardry of carbon rims that only work with that particular pad... being that blue, red or yellow and does the colour have a code or is it random, just like Viagra being blue but Cialis yellow?

And how about bearings? Of course one diamter means you can invent a dozen different standards that are incompatible for the sake of a degree or two of sloe in the outer race... clearance? C3 won't work if it's not meant for C3...

Then add a world of small incompatibilities... those dropouts that only work with that type of axle, that cassette that despite being 10 speed doesn't fit that freehub... that quarter of a millimeter mismatch that means you can't ride a bike... that derailleur that only works if matched with that particular vintage of shifter... neither the previous year nor the following will...

But don't these issues also apply to getting your car fixed? I remember as a kid my family holiday almost being ruined because a mechanic gave the wrong VW filter to my dad, who forced it on to the wrong thread. The catalogue no. was one digit different. But that is one incident in 40 years of motoring that I remember ie the exception rather than the rule. And it took less than 24hrs to sort out. The ability to get to work on your bike or be ready for a big event should not require a wait of two or three weeks for parts and servicing.

Re disc brake pads, i had the same issue until a Decathlon store opened near me, now I can take the pad in and compare it directly with the ones on dispay but then I have a similar issue replacing light bulbs now as there are about four types on my house and about thirty "standards" in B&Q. The issue is easy availability, not the range of standards.

Yes, but the car industry works differently... you have a Ford, you go to the Ford dealer and they sort out everything... you don't take a Mercedes there.

Apart from the Specialized concept stores, other shops sell a range of bikes and given how few shops are around, we expect them to fix even more brands...

A Shimano concept store wouldn't be a bad idea... but, thinking about it... aren't they all understocked Shimano concept stores?

mrfpb

I take my Honda Jazz and Vauxhall Zafira to the same garage, I used to take my VW Caravelle there, too. They have no issues sorting parts for same day or next day. Most LBS's around me have a particular manufacturer bias, but getting parts for the bikes they sell is still an issue.

dinyull

Thing is car part distributors are all over the place. There'll be 5 or 6 at least in most smaller cities not including the likes of Ford, VW etc providing their own. They also deliver same day.

There is only 1 Shimano distributor in the country, if they aren't well stocked you have no chance.

burnthesheep

The Japanese work on Toyota style pull production or Lean Manufacturing. This means having the least material at every step of the supply chain to save money. From the raw material to make the parts to the parts themselves.

This means you're essentially left ordering one-off for many things from a Japanese mfg like Shimano.

How is Compag or SRAM in comparison?

the_chief15

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Yes, but the car industry works differently... you have a Ford, you go to the Ford dealer and they sort out everything... you don't take a Mercedes there.

If that were true in the bicycle industry when I went into Evans to buy a mech hanger for my Norco, that only Norco themselves supply and Evans are the exclusive UK Norco retailer, then I would have got the hanger the next day, 2 days at most. I had to wait 6 weeks.

timothyw

Dinyull wrote:

Thing is car part distributors are all over the place. There'll be 5 or 6 at least in most smaller cities not including the likes of Ford, VW etc providing their own. They also deliver same day.

As an aside, I find these car part distributors don't tend to have the most considerate drivers working for them... I'd be happy if there were a few less on the roads.

cycleclinic

Judging by this thread the op should buy an old steel frame ride fixed gear with on front brake. That way you have only one rim that wear, spokes that last a life time and almost nothing to go wrong. A bike shop is only so profitable so it is not possible to squueze every urgent job in as resources are limited. For me i have turning away servicing work as it not that profitable. One of the problems is people come in and ask, can you do this job with the bag of parts they have bought (some of which are not compatible which you find out when you start and then have to spend time on the phone explaining this which you cant charge for) or the customer says i want to pay the price they have seen online for the parts which is a which problem for a shop. I could buy a shimano bb cheaper of wiggle than i can of madison. I cant mark up the part from wiggle which somewhat undermines the business model. Of course this means a shop that buys of wiggle is no longer a shop. There is no point in holding stock in the same way garages don't, you become a bicycle garage but the distribution chain is not set up for that.

I have been down this road of trying to stock everything. For example i went through a pahse of keeping every bb standard in stock, i dont know as it was money siting on a shelf. Same with brake pads. I bought neqrly every pad ebc make a few years back. Still got many as i cant even sell them online for a profit. So you can moan all you like what people want and what a business can deliver can be two very different things.

Getting parts is not instant. If you order a small part from a distributor say campagnolo ec-re600 (hoods) because that is all you need for this customer. Chickens cycles if they have them will charge £10 carriage for a part which costs anot over £10 and sells for £20. See the problem. That small part has to wait to become part of a larger order which takes time. So the customer has to wait.

So shops buy what they hope will sell, buying things that may not sell or keeping every small part for job that mah or may jot appear is pointless. A shops customer base is not that of andrew page. The latter can afford to hold more stock because it does not sit on the shelf for too long.


Madison are not that slow at buying. Shimano have to make or get the parts made and deliver them. It is not possible to predict how quickly stock sells. You can estimate and then get it wrong and then madison are out till the next delivery.

I import stuff and my last two lube orders have been part shipped meaning i have to pony up for a bigger order this month earlier than i wanted to get the few bits i need, meaning i will be overstocked on many items. That has a knock on as i wont be able to buy as much as i would like on other bits. For tyres i import again but the manufacturer cant make enough so once again i am short on many models and sizes. Madision are in the same position as me but on a much larger scale.

The above is why i do not run a normal retail shop. The business model of the lbs is being undermined left right and centre. Yet the op want them to have all the bits available to fix everything at short notice.

When buying a bike you have to think if that bit goes wrong can i be without it until you or a shop can get the part and have time to fix it. If you cant then that is not the bike for you. What the op wants is a shop to stock so many parts they will never sell half of them and then go out of business.

Having two bikes if you use them regilarly is a good idea. Keep them simple as well as simple kit can be found easily and fixed quickly.

So i get why the op had a moan but the op and those that agree with him are not thinking like a business. There are problems with the bike industry but they are not driven by the shop or the manufacturers. They ultimatlely sell what people are willing to buy at a price they are willing to pay. If you want many of the issues in this thread to go away people have to change they buying habbits and then retailers will adapt to serivce those new needs. Simple as that until then there will be more moaning for sure.

meanredspider

That does rather read like "the customers have got it wrong".

It sounds to me like the independent LBS is rather an anachronism. If there isn't already, there should be a unifying network that allows independent LBSs to compete with the likes of the big players by having the joint buying power and having their own distribution network that allows them to meet the needs of their customers (the cycling equivalent of Spar - if I've understood Spar properly). Either that or some other USP. The whole industry looks ripe for disruption.

cycleclinic

Thats not the arguement so much but as businesses we have to sell what people want. If we sold what people actually need bike shops would look quite different. I can think of various models, run along the lines of a bikd garage with courtacy bike available but this suits the commutor bike market only. People sctuslly buy bikes for sport which is a bit like expdcting a garage to loan you a sports car which you might race while yours in for service.

Also jojnt buying power of shops groupjng together would achieve little. Let me explain. When wiggle buy shimano they are buying at oem prices which will not be far removed from what madison pay. Hense the trade price of shimano and sram kit is the same as trade pricing plus vat. Where the wiggle are more expensive it where they have to buy of madison. Now if sah shops in suffolk grouped together to buy of madison together it would not work. One we all need different parts at different times, secondly we are not going to get much discount simply because the volumes will still be tiny. So lets say i grouped together with all the shops in the area to buy shimano chains and cassettes each shop would be over stocked with say a box of 25 of each model which means to shift that many we would have to discount but we still could not discount to the extent wiggle do and make a decent margin that makes it worth spending that money in the first place. The economics are against this. This is why i posted my frank post. It may offend some nut it is also the truth. I run a shop and have given up trying to sell most shumano parts because i cant and make money. That is whats wrong woth the bike industry. It is also an oppertunity though. I have moved away from selling bikes as i cant compete with online on this and models change to frequently meaning half the stock you buy ends up being sold in a sale. servicing is also something i do little of any more. Instead i focus on parts sales for those wanting to do the job themselves. Increasingly i think this is the way to go for "sports" bikes. For commutors bike garages can appear stocking the more limited range of parts needed for needed for these. Thd other kind of bike shop that will do well is the one thst offers an experience or a destination (which is why many sucessful shops have cafe's now). Concept stores focusing on bike sales are an example of this but then the servicing is handled by someone else except brands like specialised dont make there parts available to workshops only to bike dealers. Another problem.

The internet means more choice and cheaper prices and that is transformative for shops. We are in the middle of that and shops and customers have yet to fully adapt. Blaming it all on shops and distributors is wrong though as it is herd buying habits that drives all this.

the_chief15

thecycleclinic wrote:

So i get why the op had a moan but the op and those that agree with him are not thinking like a business. There are problems with the bike industry but they are not driven by the shop or the manufacturers. They ultimatlely sell what people are willing to buy at a price they are willing to pay. If you want many of the issues in this thread to go away people have to change they buying habbits and then retailers will adapt to serivce those new needs. Simple as that until then there will be more moaning for sure.

Definitely not the fault of the manufacturer, for years I heard cyclists calling for 15 different BB standards with almost zero cross over between parts.