The state of the bike industry today

First.Aspect

Knackered front caliper (Shimano, leaking seals, the usual). 30 min-1 hr job to replace the caliper and hose and bleed the system and replace the bar tape. Would take me 2 hours of swearing, so I know I'll take it to a shop....

Bike shop 1 - can't look at it for 3-4 days, 1-2 weeks for the part at the earliest, if Madison have it.
Bike shop 2 - can look at it in 1-2 days yay, 7-10 working days for a part if Madison have it.
Bike shop 3 - 2 weeks for a part, if Madison have it. Non committal on servicing time....
Bike shop 4 - current 3 1/2 week wait for servicing, we don't normally do Shimano brakes.

All UK online retailers out of stock (they are only RS785's for god's sake) because Madison are out of stock.

Solution, I ordered the bits from Germany. 1/3 of the cost, bike on the road in at least half the time.

I can't think of another industry so utterly incapable of providing a service to existing customers.... hang on, yes I can - Rangemaster, who don't seem to see a problem because their usual customers can manage perfectly well for a couple of weeks without an oven, by bringing in the exec chef or using the spare kitchen.

Is this a fair analysis?

jeremy1

So what is the problem...... NOT fair

It appears you are complaining because so many people are now riding bikes that shops are inundated with customers wanting them serviced.

I had to book our four bikes in weeks in advance, so what, it is called forward planning.

Or get the parts from abroad and expect the shop to charge extra for fitting or DIY

Out of stock, so again you expect shops to carry every last thing available and tie up limited finances in things perhaps only a few people may want on rare occasions "I know just in case someone wants one of those, and that and that I'll stock £1,2,3K of parts just in case", they do have overheads, wages, rent, etc to pay

Sounds like the typical person who knows their MOT runs out tomorrow and then complains that ATS can't book them in for a few days, when I sit there and think, DUH mine is due in 20 days but I am here NOW

Also like cars, parts do become "no longer available" and new alternatives replace them.

ugo.santalucia

Fair...

unless you have a great shop that can act quickly on an emergency, it's best to stick to tried and tested technology that you can fix yourself quickly with readily available parts. That's why I am a bit reluctant on hydraulics and exotic bottom bracket standards

slowmart

Or build a relationship with a local bike shop?

Support them or lose them.

I've never had a problem but then I buy local. Ones a small outlet and the other is a larger cabin but staffed by enthusiastic and knowledgeable cyclists.

The smaller shop didn't even charge me to sort a gear problem out but I popped back with a big box of chocolates.

jeremy1

Slowmart wrote:

Or build a relationship with a local bike shop?

Support them or lose them.

I've never had a problem but then I buy local. Ones a small outlet and the other is a larger cabin but staffed by enthusiastic and knowledgeable cyclists.

The smaller shop didn't even charge me to sort a gear problem out but I popped back with a big box of chocolates.

Couldn't agree more, no point complaining when the local post office/shop/library closes but you only shop in Tesco

meanredspider

Interesting set of answers - most of which read a bit like: if your local bike shop is sh!t, it's your fault for not putting up with their crappiness, for buying the lastest stuff (which they might have sold you), and for not planning your failures in advance.

I used the LBS in Inverness because they'd bend over backwards to fix your bike today or, if they didn't have the part, tomorrow when they got the part. It's called customer service and it's why the bike shop is bigger and busier than they were when I first started using them.

In a world where the Web is king, customer service is what will differentiate the winners from the also-rans.

First.Aspect

Responses to some of the earlier posts:
- I should have planned ahead for a brake failure. Silly me.
- I don't "shop in Tesco". I fix the machines I use daily as much as I can myself, so that I can continue to use them daily. If I don't my commute costs an extra £10 a day and I lose an hour from my day, more importantly, so pardon me but I prefer to save money and time. I use the lbs when I can't fix it myself, which is relatively rarely. I ride year round in Scotland, which is very hard on equipment, so I'd be wasting a lot of money and time if I didn't.

Today, I'd love to use the lbs. The guys there are brilliant and I'd happily pay for the service when I need it. Indeed I drove half an hour to take my bike down there this morning. If it had been 3-4 days, it would have a little white tag bearing my phone number on it, right now.

Thing is, he can't get simple parts any quicker than I can. Much slower, actually, by over a week at the least. Even though I use the most common standard of calipers out there, by the most popular manufacturer, none of the shops I can find in the entire United Kingdom carry the part (none that I trust with my card details anyway).

So either I'm off the road for 2-3 weeks or I do it myself, with my cash going to Germany.

I guess my point is that it wouldn't be tolerated for very long by almost any other consumer group. There are so many "standards" that a lbs, nor even Edinburgh Bicycle, can justify carrying the bits for even the most popular one. These aren't "standards" they are "designs" that are intentionally incompatible with one another. Like headphone jacks and chargers for phones a decade ago. I felt ripped off by Nokia then, just as I do by Shampagsrampo now.

[ The other shops, with 2-3 week waits really aren't providing a service for a rider like me but they seem to be busy, so its fair enough. God knows who would regard it as a "service" because it seems more like bike storage to me. Weekend warriors I suppose, cos if it takes 3 weeks it must have been complicated and therefore good. ]

First.Aspect

meanredspider wrote:

Interesting set of answers - most of which read a bit like: if your local bike shop is sh!t, it's your fault for not putting up with their crappiness, for buying the lastest stuff (which they might have sold you), and for not planning your failures in advance.

I used the LBS in Inverness because they'd bend over backwards to fix your bike today or, if they didn't have the part, tomorrow when they got the part. It's called customer service and it's why the bike shop is bigger and busier than they were when I first started using them.

In a world where the Web is king, customer service is what will differentiate the winners from the also-rans.

Yeah I think there's something fundamentally wrong with a shop selling a bike they can't fix. That doesn't apply today, since I put the bike together myself by sourcing parts from a variety of different branches of Tesco (irritatingly, there are bits on my bike that were literally machined in a converted barn in Dorset, but hey).

However, there are bikes for sale in Edinburgh Bicycle, Evans and the like running brakes that they don't stock the spares for, or tyres of a size they don't normally carry, or wheels with bearings you have to order yourself from the manufacturer (Tesco, usually). Its totally incoherent, which is why I find shops like that almost as annoying as Halfords.

However, the decent LBS I go to has only one place they can get Shimano bits from. That place doesn't have them, and when they do they sell them to the LBS for 50% more than they do to Chain Reaction, if they have any left once the online retailers have bought them, and that's if the online retailers can get any that aren't earmarked for complete bikes.

pblakeney

There was a thread on disc brake bikes recently. I pointed out that I wouldn't buy one just yet as the industry is not mature or standard enough yet. I got shot down. Hey ho...

jeremy1

meanredspider wrote:

Interesting set of answers - most of which read a bit like: if your local bike shop is sh!t, it's your fault for not putting up with their crappiness, for buying the lastest stuff (which they might have sold you), and for not planning your failures in advance.

I used the LBS in Inverness because they'd bend over backwards to fix your bike today or, if they didn't have the part, tomorrow when they got the part. It's called customer service and it's why the bike shop is bigger and busier than they were when I first started using them.

In a world where the Web is king, customer service is what will differentiate the winners from the also-rans.

then you didn't understand

No one said buy from rubbish shops

just don't expect shops to drop what they are doing for customers who have planned ahead, (I said servicing etc not one off repairs), when your bike has a problem, many like me book weeks ahead and would be p****d off if they set MY job aside to spend time on others when I have booked in, I am a customer also.

MANY shops will say "please feel free to leave it with us and we will look at it asap"

jeremy1

First Aspect wrote:

Responses to some of the earlier posts:
- I should have planned ahead for a brake failure. Silly me.
- I don't "shop in Tesco". I fix the machines I use daily as much as I can myself, so that I can continue to use them daily. If I don't my commute costs an extra £10 a day and I lose an hour from my day, more importantly, so pardon me but I prefer to save money and time. I use the lbs when I can't fix it myself, which is relatively rarely. I ride year round in Scotland, which is very hard on equipment, so I'd be wasting a lot of money and time if I didn't.

Today, I'd love to use the lbs. The guys there are brilliant and I'd happily pay for the service when I need it. Indeed I drove half an hour to take my bike down there this morning. If it had been 3-4 days, it would have a little white tag bearing my phone number on it, right now.

Thing is, he can't get simple parts any quicker than I can. Much slower, actually, by over a week at the least. Even though I use the most common standard of calipers out there, by the most popular manufacturer, none of the shops I can find in the entire United Kingdom carry the part (none that I trust with my card details anyway).

So either I'm off the road for 2-3 weeks or I do it myself, with my cash going to Germany.

I guess my point is that it wouldn't be tolerated for very long by almost any other consumer group. There are so many "standards" that a lbs, nor even Edinburgh Bicycle, can justify carrying the bits for even the most popular one. These aren't "standards" they are "designs" that are intentionally incompatible with one another. Like headphone jacks and chargers for phones a decade ago. I felt ripped off by Nokia then, just as I do by Shampagsrampo now.

[ The other shops, with 2-3 week waits really aren't providing a service for a rider like me but they seem to be busy, so its fair enough. God knows who would regard it as a "service" because it seems more like bike storage to me. Weekend warriors I suppose, cos if it takes 3 weeks it must have been complicated and therefore good. ]

No one said buy from rubbish shops

just don't expect shops to drop what they are doing for customers who have planned ahead, (I said servicing etc not one off repairs), when your bike has a problem, many like me book weeks ahead and would be p****d off if they set MY job aside to spend time on others when I have booked in, I am a customer also.

MANY shops will say "please feel free to leave it with us and we will look at it asap"

First.Aspect

PBlakeney wrote:

There was a thread on disc brake bikes recently. I pointed out that I wouldn't buy one just yet as the industry is not mature or standard enough yet. I got shot down. Hey ho...

Thing is, there was already a perfectly good standard and it was "improved" in such a way that no one could tell the difference in practice. Kind of like press fit bb's, 31.8mm seatposts and tapered head tubes. Don't get me started on external bb bearings and internal headsets - that's wrong way around ffs.

First.Aspect

jeremy1 wrote:

No one said buy from rubbish shops

just don't expect shops to drop what they are doing for customers who have planned ahead, (I said servicing etc not one off repairs), when your bike has a problem, many like me book weeks ahead and would be p****d off if they set MY job aside to spend time on others when I have booked in, I am a customer also.

MANY shops will say "please feel free to leave it with us and we will look at it asap"

Sorry, but you are probably not reading what you are replying to.

Tell me, so I can understand. I had a dragging front caliper. Took a look when cleaning and noticed that one piston wasn't moving. I braced the other one and applied the lever to get it moving. As a consequence I've lost pressure in the system. It be broke, basically. And if I take it to a shop, it will take the fat end of 3 weeks to fix. Even though they can look at it asap, as you say.

How could I have planned things better? Had two of every bike, maybe?

The Rookie

First Aspect wrote:

Knackered front caliper (Shimano, leaking seals, the usual). 30 min-1 hr job to replace the caliper and hose and bleed the system and replace the bar tape.

Why?

Just put a new calliper on the end of the existing hose surely?

meanredspider

jeremy1 wrote:

then you didn't understand

No one said buy from rubbish shops

just don't expect shops to drop what they are doing for customers who have planned ahead, (I said servicing etc not one off repairs), when your bike has a problem, many like me book weeks ahead and would be p****d off if they set MY job aside to spend time on others when I have booked in, I am a customer also.

MANY shops will say "please feel free to leave it with us and we will look at it asap"

I absolutely understand and a GOOD LBS will book in some advanced planned maintenance AND set aside time for the inevitable urgent breakdowns that, by definition, aren't predictable. If you only book in advanced jobs, everyone will have to wait. That's not good customer service. And, incidentally, that's what my LBS did. Someone comes in with a broken spoke, they'll do ASAP. Somebody calls to get their bike serviced, book it in.

Anonymous

I am not saying the bike industry is great, but bike customers seem to be much worse from whats been said on here.

People seem to expect too much from a bike shop a lot of the time, then get angry and want them to go out of business if they won't drop what they are doing to fix their bike!

People just want too much generally these days though. They want 'the best hotel, at the best price' without giving a fook how the place is funded, how much the staff are paid etc. etc.
If they do consider that its other people paying more that funds their stay, then they probably laugh at that and call them mugs, rather than be grateful.

I would not take my car to a dealer and expect them to have the part in stock, and if not leave it there while they sourced it.

If a shops any good it will have a diary with people booked in. You get added to the end.
All this special relationship crap just means you want to push in. Wait your turn!

A lot of people that want super service when it suits them probably don't shop their anyway, so you get what you give.
Maybe if the shop was more profitable they would have more staff and invest in more resources?

As to being able to get a part quicker yourself, thats the way of the world.
I wanted an outdoor jacket once and the shop that stocked the brand said it would take a couple of weeks, but I ordered it online from Spain and it came the next day.

The bike shop have their suppliers, its not their fault if Madison are slow, and I would not expect them to try to get it somewhere else, in the same way I did not expect the outdoor shop to get my jacket from Spain.

I also did not go on a camping forum slagging the outdoor shop off and then arguing with anyone that disagreed with me.

gaffer_slow

.... so much humblebragging by OP.

Moonbiker

Get a bike with claris for the commute.

slowbike

The PITA is having to wait for the part and if the distributor doesn't have the item in stock then there's nothing the LBS can do (other than to buy from abroad where they do have the part).

The delay in getting the part to the LBS is the agreement between the LBS and distributor - I suspect that they have a minimum order level before it's either a) accepted or b) delivery costs are acceptable to pay - most likely b - hence it'll be a couple of weeks between orders to build up sufficient requirement to justify the order.
Contrast that with what we as consumers expect - next day delivery - usually free too ...
What's the difference? We consumers can shop around - there are loads of outlets for the standard parts - so we can just find one who has it in stock at the price we're willing to pay - even from abroad if nescersary - whereas the UK shops will be tied to get their brand supplies from the one importer in the UK.

It ties up too much capital for an LBS to carry so many spare parts - with a high probability that they'll become obsolete before they get to sell them - they will carry the standard consumables or frequently used parts - but everything else will have to come direct from the importer - assuming they've got it in stock too.

cooldad

The obvious answer is N+1.

bendertherobot

It pays to stock up on those bits that might be troublesome. So, spokes and gear hangers. Everything else should be a relatively straightforward matter. Then you can at least provide the shop with the bit.

Some shops are poor. Mate of mine took his in last week to get his entire rear mech cock up fixed. His fault. They were great, replaced the mech, new chain, sorted the hanger etc.

When it came to replacing the broken spoke they said, sorry, we can't source one.

Which is a pretty odd statement for a Madison account holding bike shop trying to get a spoke for a bog standard Shimano spoke.

I sourced it with 2 minutes of googling from SJS, he got it posted, then took the bike back in.

First.Aspect

The Rookie wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

Knackered front caliper (Shimano, leaking seals, the usual). 30 min-1 hr job to replace the caliper and hose and bleed the system and replace the bar tape.

Why?

Just put a new calliper on the end of the existing hose surely?

Sure, but any bike shop would bleed it anyway I think. But I need/want a new hose - current one a little too short. Own fault.
EDIT: Fnarr.

First.Aspect

gaffer_slow wrote:

.... so much humblebragging by OP.

Is my commuter bike nicer than yours or something?

First.Aspect

Carbonator wrote:

wrong end of the stick, stuff

Slowbike wrote:

stuff

This isn't a "slag off my LBS thread".

This is a "what chance does it stand?" thread.

The LBS is great. They work basically the same way as my local garage when it comes to parts, which also has to order in bits because its not economic to keep one of everything in stock.

If I bought a Ferrari, I think I'd understand if my local garage would struggle. But if I bought an old Ford Focus and my local garage couldn't fix it for 3 weeks, because Ford have a monopoly on its brake designs and don't supply the market demand, I'd be annoyed at Ford. Or, if there was an exclusive Ford distributor who sold all their parts for brand new Focuses or Ford dealers and left none for the rest of the market, I'd be annoyed at Ford.

Thing is, the likes of Ford don't do this to the same extent, because it would defeat the object of buying a runabout and ultimately damage their sales.

The only option I seem to have is to buy a car with drum brakes.

[ I probably muddied the waters by mentioning the shops that had a month wait for any kind of servicing. But the other three could all fit me in within a not unreasonable time. ]

mrfpb

I very rarely get a an issue with a garage getting parts for a car service - they are usually same day if I take the car in first thing, or next working day. If bike shops can't get the (fairly standard) parts- and the OP tried 4 shops- then that is symptomatic of the bike industry being at fault. Manufacturers need to understand that maintaining bikes is an issue for customers. N+1 is not an option for everyone.Manufacturers also need to undestand that peole need physical shops in order to see and try bikes, and need to make the effort to work with LBS whether independent or chains to sustain the quality and standards of the industry.

PTestTeam

yet another reason for not buying disk brakes

First.Aspect

PTestTeam wrote:

yet another reason for not buying disk brakes

On the other hand, this is the only commuter bike I've ever had where my wheel rims outlasted the hubs.....

.... but I could equally have had this experience with a hidden headset, a bottom bracket, a freehub or a wheel bearing. It would appear that the disc brake brings the worst out in the manufacturers, though.

pblakeney

First Aspect wrote:

PTestTeam wrote:

yet another reason for not buying disk brakes

On the other hand, this is the only commuter bike I've ever had where my wheel rims outlasted the hubs.....

.... but I could equally have had this experience with a hidden headset, a bottom bracket, a freehub or a wheel bearing. It would appear that the disc brake brings the worst out in the manufacturers, though.

I recently enquired about wheel bearing replacement - £65 + shipping.
Two SKF bearings £5 delivered and fitting took 1/2 hour. Brings out the best in people willing to work.

veronese68

mrfpb wrote:

I very rarely get a an issue with a garage getting parts for a car service - they are usually same day if I take the car in first thing, or next working day. If bike shops can't get the (fairly standard) parts- and the OP tried 4 shops- then that is symptomatic of the bike industry being at fault. Manufacturers need to understand that maintaining bikes is an issue for customers. N+1 is not an option for everyone.

This is really the issue. The distributor should have the parts in stock so the shops can have them next day if necessary. It's not like the parts are obsolete or anything.

meanredspider

PTestTeam wrote:

yet another reason for not buying disk brakes

The other one being that they slice massive holes in pro cyclists shoes from 6 feet away? :roll:

Next time I'll ask my LBS if they can get my Paretini top repaired

Steve-XcT

The problem is less the LBS than the supply chain.
Shim-SRAM-nolo have basically sewn up the supply chain so that not only can the consumer not deal with the manufacturer but neither can the LBS who have to go through a distributor....