CMS hearings into the alleged culture of doping and bullying at British Cycling

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

I'm quite amazed that high pressure environments that need performance may not be very nice places. And that people who rise up the ranks may not be super pleasant.

I mean, I'd be amazed if I lived in a cave and had never had a job in my life.

Alex Ferguson is held up as a master manager for behaving in much a similar way - worse for much of the time.

r0bh

iainf72 wrote:

I'm quite amazed that high pressure environments that need performance may not be very nice places. And that people who rise up the ranks may not be super pleasant.

I mean, I'd be amazed if I lived in a cave and had never had a job in my life.

Couldn't agree more. When UK Sport base your future funding purely on medal performance it's hardly a surprise that performance is prioritized above all else.

dish_dash

RichN95 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

I'm quite amazed that high pressure environments that need performance may not be very nice places. And that people who rise up the ranks may not be super pleasant.

I mean, I'd be amazed if I lived in a cave and had never had a job in my life.

Alex Ferguson is held up as a master manager for behaving in much a similar way - worse for much of the time.

I was just making the same point in the Brailsford thread...

RichN95.

You can have all the compliance and welfare officers you like, but your opposition will never be accountable to them.

Hinaultscrapcousin

r0bh wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

I'm quite amazed that high pressure environments that need performance may not be very nice places. And that people who rise up the ranks may not be super pleasant.

I mean, I'd be amazed if I lived in a cave and had never had a job in my life.

Couldn't agree more. When UK Sport base your future funding purely on medal performance it's hardly a surprise that performance is prioritized above all else.

Apart from when it isn't.

yorkshireraw

RichN95 wrote:

You can have all the compliance and welfare officers you like, but your opposition will never be accountable to them.

POTD. Absolutely.

blazing_saddles

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Back to the culture of BC - there was a fair bit of I told you so on here when Jess Varnish's accusations were largely dismissed - the papers today suggest that may have been premature and that the findings of the report which looked at her allegations may have been a whitewash which did not reflect what came out of the investigation.

If that's true then it just compounds the initial offences and points to a clear cultural problem within the organisation. We shall have to wait and see when the latest report is published.

That would be me.
I was minded to spill a few beans this morning, but decided I won't comment further on Jess. There is little point.
Folks will always believe what they want to believe.

Anyhow, here it is briefly. Surprisingly, The Mail actually lays it out a little more clearly, hence their link.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/others ... eport.html

There is a ‘culture of fear’ at the governing body.

Appropriate leadership and good governance is lacking at board level and on the world-class performance programme.

Weak leadership at board level enabled first Sir Dave Brailsford and then Sutton to run the organisation without supervision from their employers, creating a ‘dysfunctional leadership structure’.

Hard-hitting conclusions from a November 2012 internal report on the culture and climate of the performance programme were not acted upon.

The pursuit of medals and derived National Lottery funding from UK Sport has had ‘a blinding effect, causing clear behavioural and cultural issues to be ignored’.

The last bullet point seems to step outside their remit and takes a general swipe at how the UK approaches the Olympics.
Can Britain's cultural diversity become prioritised over success at Olympic level, as long as sports are funded upon this criteria?
Should the criteria be changed, or is this one Liberal leap too far?

I am minded that all this has come about through a single cock up in Cambridge.

pedro118118

Just imagine how successful British riders could have been been at elite level if there had been "appropriate leadership", better "governance" and a less "dysfunctional" structure. Like back in the good old days, when everyone felt loved and cared for. And we won foxtrot alpha. If the 'powers that be' want to foster this kind of environment for our elite athletes, then the whole basis upon which funding is secured and maintained needs to be overhauled. In essence, we revert back to a mentality where it's not the winning, it's the taking part and we're back alongside the Algeria and Belarus in the Olympic medal table, like we were in '96.

DeVlaeminck

It's all getting dangerously close to Shane Sutton's "how dare you question the methods, shut up and look at the medals" argument.

pedro118118

DeVlaeminck wrote:

It's all getting dangerously close to Shane Sutton's "how dare you question the methods, shut up and look at the medals" argument.

But surely he has a point? Provided there's no cheating. This isn't day care for toddlers; it's the pinnacle of elite sport/performance.

RichN95.

DeVlaeminck wrote:

It's all getting dangerously close to Shane Sutton's "how dare you question the methods, shut up and look at the medals" argument.

But there should be an acknowledgement that elite sport has more in common with the military than the sport you or I play.

Dorset_Boy

I would hope that there's a culture of fear in any elite sporting organization that is successful - a fear of losing.

However, I suspect that's not the culture of fear they are referring to!
Some elite athletes need the shoulder and the hug to perform to their best, others need the rocket up the proverbial. Quality management and coaching should be able to recognize who needs which approach.

It will however be a massive shame if the success of British Cycling diminishes as a result of all this.

cruff

Dorset Boy wrote:

I would hope that there's a culture of fear in any elite sporting organization that is successful - a fear of losing.

However, I suspect that's not the culture of fear they are referring to!
Some elite athletes need the shoulder and the hug to perform to their best, others need the rocket up the proverbial. Quality management and coaching should be able to recognize who needs which approach.

It will however be a massive shame if the success of British Cycling diminishes as a result of all this.

Which is exactly what will happen. Then the Fail can continue its crusade by 'questioning' how much funding is given to 'failing' Olympic cyclists, and the circle of making their readers feel better about the fact they sit in a tin box to travel to and from a place they hate every day and get less exercise than a housebound 300kg shut-in will be complete

salsiccia1

Cruff wrote:

Dorset Boy wrote:

I would hope that there's a culture of fear in any elite sporting organization that is successful - a fear of losing.

However, I suspect that's not the culture of fear they are referring to!
Some elite athletes need the shoulder and the hug to perform to their best, others need the rocket up the proverbial. Quality management and coaching should be able to recognize who needs which approach.

It will however be a massive shame if the success of British Cycling diminishes as a result of all this.

Which is exactly what will happen. Then the Fail can continue its crusade by 'questioning' how much funding is given to 'failing' Olympic cyclists, and the circle of making their readers feel better about the fact they sit in a tin box to travel to and from a place they hate every day and get less exercise than a housebound 300kg shut-in will be complete

Word

EnacheV

i love "independent" reviews from panels who consist of federation directors of sports who are direct competitors for the same uk sport money

also, this is how medals are made, everywhere, in any sport

lol @ mp's and
'independent" reviewers

RichN95.

in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

blazing_saddles

RichN95 wrote:

in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

Cuckoo indeed.
Thank you, Mr Welles.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

You can't actually believe all that kind of BS can you?

If your coach can only train people by straddling the line that defines bullying and not bullying, your coach is pretty one dimensional, and you should look to either teach them how to do it differently, take on better staff who can coach in other ways, or get rid of them.

I found that out very quickly as a 17 year old when trying to coach a women's rowing boat, so if I can work that one out, why can't these high class professionals?

Richmond Racer 2

RichN95 wrote:

in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

And chocolate tbf

tailwindhome

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

And chocolate tbf

And watches and penknives

twotoebenny

TailWindHome wrote:

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

And chocolate tbf

And watches and penknives

Sh1t Navy though

diplodicus

What have the Swiss ever done for us?

Lanterne_Rogue

Cuckoo clocks are Bavarian, FWIW.

Bit like Austria's greatest achievement being to convince everyone that Mozart was Austrian and Hitler German...

awavey

pedro118118 wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

It's all getting dangerously close to Shane Sutton's "how dare you question the methods, shut up and look at the medals" argument.

But surely he has a point? Provided there's no cheating. This isn't day care for toddlers; it's the pinnacle of elite sport/performance.

but youve know way of knowing if the success comes from the approach corporal drill sergeant coach took, or if you happen to be dealing with a group of phenomenally talented individuals who anyone, could have just put on a bike and let them go out and win gold medals with a few words of encouragement.

people dont end up on the team in the first place whose numbers dont stack up, so its not even the case the coaches are turning also rans, into successes, they are already working with the best of the elite group of riders they can identify through the development and talent programs.

EnacheV

also, regarding team sky

it's proved that they aren't the white knights they bragged to be

but they aren't worse than any current pro team

so what's the big deal?

lets recap

JTL as only busted rider but it was because he was a bad boy at his previous team :oops:
few TUE's (Serena has the same and he is a legend). probably all teams have TUE's but fancy bears had an agenda so we will never know
Henao's scientific studies

aka nothing

TheBigBean

This reminds me of when people say "Name five famous Belgians", and I respond with a bunch of cyclists. Then of course I realise that it is supposed to be a small country put down. I'd still expect anyone who watches a bit of sport to manage it though.

blazing_saddles

awavey wrote:

pedro118118 wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

It's all getting dangerously close to Shane Sutton's "how dare you question the methods, shut up and look at the medals" argument.

But surely he has a point? Provided there's no cheating. This isn't day care for toddlers; it's the pinnacle of elite sport/performance.

but youve know way of knowing if the success comes from the approach corporal drill sergeant coach took, or if you happen to be dealing with a group of phenomenally talented individuals who anyone, could have just put on a bike and let them go out and win gold medals with a few words of encouragement.

people dont end up on the team in the first place whose numbers dont stack up, so its not even the case the coaches are turning also rans, into successes, they are already working with the best of the elite group of riders they can identify through the development and talent programs.

Well, they were.
They may be forced into using other criteria in the future.



No luv here for Swiss bankers then?
How about their cheese, or is that just another holy mess?

bobmcstuff

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

You can't actually believe all that kind of BS can you?

If your coach can only train people by straddling the line that defines bullying and not bullying, your coach is pretty one dimensional, and you should look to either teach them how to do it differently, take on better staff who can coach in other ways, or get rid of them.

I found that out very quickly as a 17 year old when trying to coach a women's rowing boat, so if I can work that one out, why can't these high class professionals?

Exactly... I can only assume that the people who believe this have never managed people before (or taking the piss on this particular case ). Takes different things to get the best out of different people.

Not meant to be a comment on Varnish mind.

RichN95.

TheBigBean wrote:

This reminds me of when people say "Name five famous Belgians", and I respond with a bunch of cyclists. Then of course I realise that it is supposed to be a small country put down. I'd still expect anyone who watches a bit of sport to manage it though.

Some of the best players in the Premiership these days - Hazard, Kompany De Bruyne, Cortois, Lukaku as just a start.

RichN95.

bobmcstuff wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

You can't actually believe all that kind of BS can you?

If your coach can only train people by straddling the line that defines bullying and not bullying, your coach is pretty one dimensional, and you should look to either teach them how to do it differently, take on better staff who can coach in other ways, or get rid of them.

I found that out very quickly as a 17 year old when trying to coach a women's rowing boat, so if I can work that one out, why can't these high class professionals?

Exactly... I can only assume that the people who believe this have never managed people before (or taking the wee-wee on this particular case ). Takes different things to get the best out of different people.

It's just a quote from a film.

But a certain about of pressure, stress and conflict is preferable to bring the best out of sportsmen and prepared them competition.