Wheelsucker on Zwift

cruff

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

Completely agree with the OP - it's a game which is recognised as such and within the game there are organised races just to add to the competitiveness.
Now, we all like to win at games & races but accept that we can't always do that - but what we don't like is cheats - if there's a known bug then it's wrong to exploit it intentionally - it's like finding out that the person you're racing is using an e-bike ...
No actual harm done - it's not like they've robbed you of anything, if anything it may just have pushed you a bit harder - but it's just not nice and not the done thing.
Perhaps Zwift could introduce a Lance flag for anyone found to be cheating ... that way the cheaters can be shunned ...

There are many ways to cheat on Zwift and many people do. However this isn't cheating.

Not trying to start an argument here, but how often do you race on Zwift? I've heard about it in races for months, but have never seen it until the last race I did. Seems to be either an exploit for a specific trainer/power meter. Like I say, when someone else caught on to it and started streaming him, then called him on it, he dropped back like a stone so seems he was perfectly aware of what he was doing

markhewitt1978

Slowbike wrote:

What's this?

Wheelsucking. Cheating would be faking your power meter values, putting in the wrong weight etc. It might be impolite, but it's not cheating per se.

cruff

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

What's this?

Wheelsucking. Cheating would be faking your power meter values, putting in the wrong weight etc. It might be impolite, but it's not cheating per se.

But it's not wheelsucking. That's what I thought it was at first, but subsequently been told that there is a way to exploit a specific trainer or power meter that allows you to do basically naff all except a few seconds dig every now and then - so vastly inflating the benefit you'd get from 'real' wheelsucking. Fair enough if someone wants to benefit from all your work without doing anything themselves, but not even doing what would be required to keep up with the wheel in front is taking the psis. It's relatively easy to spot if you look at the power data from that user after the race, coupled with their cadence and heart rate. I suppose it's just another step up from a Makita attached to the crank

slowbike

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

What's this?

Wheelsucking. Cheating would be faking your power meter values, putting in the wrong weight etc. It might be impolite, but it's not cheating per se.

Wheelsucking isn't cheating - it's wheelsucking - perhaps its not the nicest thing to happen, but it is part of the game - IRL as well as in VR - you only have to look at Pro sprinters to see the ultimate in wheelsucking - although they do at least put some effort in right at the end ...

But if there's a bug that you can exploit that allows you to wheelsuck like the bike in front is a truck and you've got a F12 tailwind and you do so knowlingly then that is cheating. It'd be like (IRL) holding onto the seatpost of the bloke in front ...

If you want to do it on a general ride around then fine - doesn't bother anyone, although the person you're sucking may feel a bit bugged ... but to do it in the race - nah - unsporting ...

Rodrego Hernandez

It shouldn't bother you in real life and certainly shouldn't bother you in an imaginary bike ride!

smoggysteve

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

It shouldn't bother you in real life and certainly shouldn't bother you in an imaginary bike ride!

I would be more concerned if any of the other riders on Zwift were using disc brakes. Think of the imaginary danger they could pose to other imaginary riders

Man Of Lard

I Zwift with no brakes at all... Bike never leaves the turbo, so no need for them. Keeps the weight down for the climbs

penski

Not heard of any such bug? I wonder if I have accidentally done this to somebody else?

If a wheel sucker can annoy you IRL, it can certainly annoy you whilst youre training in a virtual world.

markhewitt1978

I'm pretty much all over most Zwift discussion. People pick out tiny aspects of it. But this is the only time I've heard of this.

AK_jnr

Oh my god this must have ruined your week!!
Why didnt you just punch him?

cruff

markhewitt1978 wrote:

I'm pretty much all over most Zwift discussion. People pick out tiny aspects of it. But this is the only time I've heard of this.

Got a screenshot of his power, cadence and heart rate data for one lap where I didn't put a dig in to try and drop him. I was skeptical of it as well when I first heard about it, until I saw it happen to me. Again, this isn't 'regular' wheelsucking

https://ibb.co/kDNhbF

markhewitt1978

That's his strava not yours? Yes something very odd there.

cruff

markhewitt1978 wrote:

That's his strava not yours? Yes something very odd there.

Yep, his Strava. Think it's an exploit linked to his trainer (though can't tell what trainer it is). Like I said, it definitely wasn't drafting - cos once I'd figured out he was wheelsucking, I sat at a steady cadence and power for about five minutes to see what would happen - he stayed literally glued to my wheel. It's definitely an odd one - which is partly why I haven't responded to you mugging me off about it on ZVA

jgsi

Post it in Zwift Riders/racers... Zwift HQ always monitor bad press.
I dont know what they can do to stop 'web doping.. I could offset my PM to read +10% but I dont ... honest

cruff

JGSI wrote:

Post it in Zwift Riders/racers... Zwift HQ always monitor bad press.
I dont know what they can do to stop 'web doping.. I could offset my PM to read +10% but I dont ... honest

Shiiiit - how on earth do you do that? No - wait, don't. The temptation would be too great...

Seriously, I don't get why anyone would bother actively cheating. I get the fact that there are people on there with bad setups, or unintentionally miscalibrated trainers, or just no clue on how to set up a dumb trainer for Zpower. But people setting their weight to 50Kg, or using a power drill or God knows what... just why?

markhewitt1978

We are discussing it in one of the Zwift groups - not the main one - and Jon Mayfield has been tagged so I'm sure he is aware. Others have also mentioned the watts staying the same bug in relation to iOS

markhewitt1978

Btw if you want to post it in Zwift Riders go ahead just don't frame it as the original post about complaining about a wheelsucker as you would get the same responses as here!

markhewitt1978

There's still a few devices that don't have packet time outs. - Jon Mayfield.

So there you are. Bug confirmed

bianchimoon

Cruff wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

I'm pretty much all over most Zwift discussion. People pick out tiny aspects of it. But this is the only time I've heard of this.

Got a screenshot of his power, cadence and heart rate data for one lap where I didn't put a dig in to try and drop him. I was skeptical of it as well when I first heard about it, until I saw it happen to me. Again, this isn't 'regular' wheelsucking

https://ibb.co/kDNhbF

I think 9.9 miles is where the paramedics shocked him, he seems to be ok after that tho, so alls well that ends well

markhewitt1978

As 'Cruff' will tell you this is now a thing on the Facebook groups.

pippi_langsamer-2

Golden Cheetah for me. No frills, not even the pseudo "go on- dig in", encouragement of TR. Me, some select Psytrance (IRO 150bpm), and a garage wall staring at me.

(Am feeling the need to try Zwift though to see what all the fuss is about)

cruff

Pippi Langsamer wrote:

Golden Cheetah for me. No frills, not even the pseudo "go on- dig in", encouragement of TR. Me, some select Psytrance (IRO 150bpm), and a garage wall staring at me.

(Am feeling the need to try Zwift though to see what all the fuss is about)

I was skeptical at first. Used to quite enjoy the masochistic nature of staring at a wall with nothing but pain to encourage me, but Zwift has made such a difference to my winters - the racing really helps me push myself at times when I'd normally just be doing intervals (which I can still do whenever I feel like it)

fat daddy

Yeah, I now see Zwift as a separate thing to cycling ... turbo training was a way to keep winter fitness.

Now it's become its own entity, I find I use cycling to increase my ability on Zwift, I use the structured workouts on Zwift to get better in the races on Zwift

Mikey23

For someone reason mine didnt pick up cadence yesterday so freewheeled the whole course including the ups. Must have looked mighty peculiar to those whom i was riding with and im sure somebody must have felt i was taking the mick!

bianchimoon

Mikey23 wrote:

For someone reason mine didnt pick up cadence yesterday so freewheeled the whole course including the ups. Must have looked mighty peculiar to those whom i was riding with and im sure somebody must have felt i was taking the mick!

cheat

fat daddy

before I got a cadence sensor I was in rides with people that were not pedalling .... I assumed they were cheating ... now having bought a sensor I realise that and one that you meet that isn't pedalling OR is doing a seemng 600rpm ... is just having tech difficulties !

goldenbolux

sorry to butt in

signed up to zwift this week to give it a go

I have a non smart tacx turbo and a mio cyclo speed and cadence sensor

what is the etiquette for us non smart trainer users

are non smart users not allowed to enter races with smart trainer users, does zwift keep these types of riders totally apart

the couple of times I have used it I have adjusted my resistance to best suit the ride/climbs as I presume this is the best I can do to simulate this

what does zwift do to stop someone flying round on the flat on a manual trainer annoying everyone on a smart trainer

sorry if this is a dumb question

MiddleRinger

goldenbolux wrote:

.... signed up to zwift this week to give it a go ....

Zwift is getting better at spotting "fliers" and alerting them.

I take it your using a speed/cadence sensor to guestimate your wattage on Zwift? In that case you shouldn't be messing with your turbo resistance once you've got it set up right. If you change your turbo resistance or wheel clamping tightness or tyre pressure this will alter the reported wattage. Is your turbo a Zwift supported dumb trainer? You'll soon realise if your reported power is a bit dodgy when you're flying around at 400 watts without breaking much of a sweat.

Anyone can enter the races, although some of them require heart rate data if you're Cat A standard.

markhewitt1978

Don't adjust your resistance! The Zwift estimation system relies on your resistance being constant and estimates your wattage based on that. If you change it to being harder you're short changing yourself. If you change it to easier you're a flier. So leave it alone.

goldenbolux

sorry if i got this wrong

yeah i think i have a tacx blue motion, with mio cyclo sensors

what i meant to say whilst on the way round ie the volcano i have been adjusting my resistance from say 1 on the flat to 6 on my resistance lever to simulate a 6% incline as it levels out turning it back down to 1. this is the best i can do on my dumb trainer to match what i think a smart trainer does and i seem to be slowing down as most others do on the climbs etc , but i have noticed some others flying up and down the hills and i presumed they were just keeping there turbo resistance at the minimum at all times.

i was just wondering if everyone did as i did or was i the only one doing it or whether zwift in fact keep smart and dumb trainers apart

thanks once again