Six Nations 2017

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  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    I can't claim any great knowledge of what goes on in the front row in international rugby these days, but back in the day I was a fairly effective prop at school level (despite giving away couple of stone almost every time).
    What I can tell you is that there was plenty of skulduggery - from various techniques to apply force at different angles and places, up to outright violence. I still have the scar - literally - from the most vicious nipple grip applied one time by an opposing prop: which led to the only time in my life I have ever got angry enough to commit violence. Of course I didn't do anything terrible, it was probably just a coincidence that he had to go off with a sore neck a few minutes later ;-)

    And the one thing I remember most strongly from all that was that if the ref ever blew up for a penalty for a front row infringement, it always seemed entirely random. The most obvious example being a collapsed scrum - it could be caused by any number of things but I'll give you a clue - it's most probably not a deliberate decision by the guy at the bottom with 6 people on top of him, his face in the mud and his neck bent backwards.

    I don't think international refs these days are any different: I suspect that they penalise the scrum that they feel is struggling the most, but that just means that a stronger scum can pull it down any time to get a penalty.

    Neutering the scrum would be a sad thing to do, but it is getting a bit ridiculous.
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    London and irish lions? Wynn Jones captain? 6 candidates I read somewhere in a comment from Gatland were in contention and even the captain isn't guaranteed a place on the team.
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,568
    London and irish lions? Wynn Jones captain? 6 candidates I read somewhere in a comment from Gatland were in contention and even the captain isn't guaranteed a place on the team.

    With Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, The Grays, and Lawes in the frame, I would say AWJ is far from assured of being on the plane let alone being captain
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • narbs
    narbs Posts: 593
    London and irish lions? Wynn Jones captain? 6 candidates I read somewhere in a comment from Gatland were in contention and even the captain isn't guaranteed a place on the team.

    Jones FFS! Not Wyn Jones.
  • narbs
    narbs Posts: 593
    laurentian wrote:
    London and irish lions? Wynn Jones captain? 6 candidates I read somewhere in a comment from Gatland were in contention and even the captain isn't guaranteed a place on the team.

    With Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, The Grays, and Lawes in the frame, I would say AWJ is far from assured of being on the plane let alone being captain

    Captain is fascinating. I don't think AWJ, Hartley or Best are likely to be first choice in their respective positions.
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,568
    narbs wrote:
    laurentian wrote:
    London and irish lions? Wynn Jones captain? 6 candidates I read somewhere in a comment from Gatland were in contention and even the captain isn't guaranteed a place on the team.

    With Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, The Grays, and Lawes in the frame, I would say AWJ is far from assured of being on the plane let alone being captain

    Captain is fascinating. I don't think AWJ, Hartley or Best are likely to be first choice in their respective positions.

    I would say the best hooker has been George whos game (I think!) will be more suited to playing in NZ and, as I said above, I think there are 3 or 4 who could lay claim to having a better shout at 4/5 than Jones on the basis of this 6N performance - although I do like AWJ.

    Gatland did say someting on the radio yesterday along the lines of the captain not necessarily being a test starter . . . which seems a bit odd but would suggest to me he already has in mind who he wants to be captain.

    Farrell would't be a surprise
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,227
    Antonio went off down the tunnel on his own. I can only assume that he was assessed by the doctor who wasn't with him, who must have decided that there was possible concussion, as otherwise he would have had time to come back on to the field in the extra 20 minutes. So how many weeks rugby will he have to miss for not bumping his head?
  • narbs
    narbs Posts: 593
    laurentian wrote:
    narbs wrote:
    laurentian wrote:
    London and irish lions? Wynn Jones captain? 6 candidates I read somewhere in a comment from Gatland were in contention and even the captain isn't guaranteed a place on the team.

    With Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, The Grays, and Lawes in the frame, I would say AWJ is far from assured of being on the plane let alone being captain

    Captain is fascinating. I don't think AWJ, Hartley or Best are likely to be first choice in their respective positions.

    I would say the best hooker has been George whos game (I think!) will be more suited to playing in NZ and, as I said above, I think there are 3 or 4 who could lay claim to having a better shout at 4/5 than Jones on the basis of this 6N performance - although I do like AWJ.

    Gatland did say someting on the radio yesterday along the lines of the captain not necessarily being a test starter . . . which seems a bit odd but would suggest to me he already has in mind who he wants to be captain.

    Farrell would't be a surprise

    George and Owens are both streets ahead of Hartley and Best.

    I don't see the point of having a tour captain who isn't likely to be a test starter. But then the options aren't that great.

    I have to say though the thought of Farrell as captain doesn't appeal!
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,568
    narbs wrote:
    laurentian wrote:
    narbs wrote:
    laurentian wrote:
    London and irish lions? Wynn Jones captain? 6 candidates I read somewhere in a comment from Gatland were in contention and even the captain isn't guaranteed a place on the team.

    With Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, The Grays, and Lawes in the frame, I would say AWJ is far from assured of being on the plane let alone being captain

    Captain is fascinating. I don't think AWJ, Hartley or Best are likely to be first choice in their respective positions.

    I would say the best hooker has been George whos game (I think!) will be more suited to playing in NZ and, as I said above, I think there are 3 or 4 who could lay claim to having a better shout at 4/5 than Jones on the basis of this 6N performance - although I do like AWJ.

    Gatland did say someting on the radio yesterday along the lines of the captain not necessarily being a test starter . . . which seems a bit odd but would suggest to me he already has in mind who he wants to be captain.

    Farrell would't be a surprise

    George and Owens are both streets ahead of Hartley and Best.

    I don't see the point of having a tour captain who isn't likely to be a test starter. But then the options aren't that great.

    I have to say though the thought of Farrell as captain doesn't appeal!

    Sorry, I should have mentioned Owens - and agree, those two stand out. I think Farrell would be a great captain. He'll be England's next I reckon.
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • bendertherobot
    bendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    I agree. England have to have a Captain who's willing to risk being sent off a lot.
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  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,592
    laurentian wrote:
    London and irish lions? Wynn Jones captain? 6 candidates I read somewhere in a comment from Gatland were in contention and even the captain isn't guaranteed a place on the team.

    With Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, The Grays, and Lawes in the frame, I would say AWJ is far from assured of being on the plane let alone being captain

    I agree (maybe surprisingly but I admire all those), AWJ has lost form but somehow he's apparently favourite for the captaincy. We saw in the Scotland game that he was ineffectual in decision making.
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    I read today Warburton is in the running. I wonder if Gatland is considering players who aren't their own nation's team captain for some reason. Other than pure form that is.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,592
    I'd concentrate on getting the match day team sorted and then work out the best choice for captain (Gatland's will obviously have a short list of potentials). I suspect it's all irrelevant though as unless Gatland has spent the last 6 months developing new tactics the Lions are going to get hammered as his normal strategy won't work against the speed of the NZ game.
  • narbs
    narbs Posts: 593
    Pross wrote:
    I'd concentrate on getting the match day team sorted and then work out the best choice for captain (Gatland's will obviously have a short list of potentials). I suspect it's all irrelevant though as unless Gatland has spent the last 6 months developing new tactics the Lions are going to get hammered as his normal strategy won't work against the speed of the NZ game.

    Ha ha ha ha ha :wink:
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    I was reading an article online about innovation in the 6 nations. Basically one idea was promotion/relegation between 6 nations and tier 2 teams like Georgia. I think 55000 watching Georgia or Georgian teams has its attractions. What do you think?
  • crispybug2
    crispybug2 Posts: 2,915
    I was reading an article online about innovation in the 6 nations. Basically one idea was promotion/relegation between 6 nations and tier 2 teams like Georgia. I think 55000 watching Georgia or Georgian teams has its attractions. What do you think?


    I'll give you a choice, a weekend in February in either Rome or Tbilisi??

    The Six Nations thrives on the close proximity of the countries to each other, Georgia is a big old trip to a country described by one of my rugby mates as "a total shithole!" And would Georgia be able to bring 10,000+ to every away match?
    In the midst of the criticism of Italy it's worth remembering that it took France well over twenty years to win their first five nations
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    I don't want to see it but I'm curious to know opinions of the more knowledgeable.

    Italy IMHO has improved over the years I've been watching the 6 nations. It's probably very obvious I'm a fan but not very knowledgeable in the game (I only played one half of a season for my football centric school against rugby centric schools at 12/13 years without knowing the rules). Despite that I reckon Italy improved but I get the impression they're declining again. I think they've got some talent but they're getting close to retirement. I don't think that should mean they go out of the6 nations though.

    I used to view Italy as the northern hemisphere version of Argentina. IIRC Argentina were almost getting there, to the top flight level. Then recently they got into yr top tier southern hemisphere competition against Australia, NZ and south Africa. Now I reckon they're a challenge for any 6 nations team. That's where I'd like Italy to be. That can't happen if they're at risk of dropping out of top tier competition. Besides, imagine if they brought it in if Scotland finish below Italy. One of the original 4 nations dropping out of the modern competition! :wink:

    Posted a few years too late for it to be relevant of course due to this year's Scottish performance.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,592
    I'd suggest Argentina had already become a force to be reckoned with when they got admitted to the rugby championship.

    Italy have been on the verge of breaking through a few times but they just lack the strength in depth. At times they've looked good this season but they just seem to fall away after a decent start. They need a stronger domestic structure which I think is something they are actively looking at.

    I'm not sure promotion and relegation is a good idea in an international tournament and I'm not sure the 6 Nations really needs to change. There have been some very good matches (Wales v Ireland was a cracker and Scotland v Ireland and Wales v England weren't bad). I don't think the try bonus point adds a lot either.

    There are issues in the world game that need sorting out though, the scrum being the most obvious. I'd hate to see it becoming more passive but there is so much time wasted resetting it at the top level. It's ironic that the best players in the world struggle to complete a scrum whilst at lower levels front row forwards see it as a disgrace if they collapse a scrum.
  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,142
    I would like to see the 6 Nations become the 7 Nations, if only for the purpose of evening out the home and away games to 3 each instead of alternating 2 and 3 home games which seems to throw the balance.
    The extra team could be qualifier or wildcard to make it more interesting.
  • I was reading an article online about innovation in the 6 nations. Basically one idea was promotion/relegation between 6 nations and tier 2 teams like Georgia. I think 55000 watching Georgia or Georgian teams has its attractions. What do you think?

    I wouldn't have direct promotion/relegation but a play-off that takes place during the autumn internationals. It would be quite easy to have leave a floating fixture where the team finishing bottom of the six nations has to play the team that won the second tier competition. Whoever wins deserves to play in the 6 nations the following season.
  • narbs
    narbs Posts: 593
    I can't see Italy improving at test level until the level beneath is sorted out. Two crap teams playing in a crap league isn't doing them any favours at all.
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    An out of the box idea. If strength in rugby depends on level of competition at the club level the aim could be to improve club players through better competition. If Italy has only 2 second rate teams in a poor club competion then give those clubs better competition. Perhaps have those top performing Italian clubs play in a cross Europe club league made up purely of the best clubs in second tier nations.

    That idea is possibly irrelevant but the thinking is that if a nation has only a few good teams playing inferior teams then they're not being challenged. If they played clubs at or better than them they get the challenge to improve. Imagine if England only had teams like Italy or even lower rated teams as competition in the 6nations. They'd beat them all but come the world cup or autumn internationals they'd get crushed by southern hemisphere teams because they never got challenged to improve.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,592
    An out of the box idea. If strength in rugby depends on level of competition at the club level the aim could be to improve club players through better competition. If Italy has only 2 second rate teams in a poor club competion then give those clubs better competition. Perhaps have those top performing Italian clubs play in a cross Europe club league made up purely of the best clubs in second tier nations.

    That idea is possibly irrelevant but the thinking is that if a nation has only a few good teams playing inferior teams then they're not being challenged. If they played clubs at or better than them they get the challenge to improve. Imagine if England only had teams like Italy or even lower rated teams as competition in the 6nations. They'd beat them all but come the world cup or autumn internationals they'd get crushed by southern hemisphere teams because they never got challenged to improve.

    Their clubs are playing the best Ireland, Scotland and Wales on a weekly basis as well as the European cup competition and whilst the Pro 12 isn't great quality most of the time the Italian clubs rarely manage a win.
  • narbs
    narbs Posts: 593
    Treviso and Zebre have been the bottom two sides in the Pro12 for the last 3 seasons and will be again this year. They're so bad that they finish below Newport.

    Unfortunately, other than paying lip-service to the idea, there seems little appetite amongst the top table of world rugby to make any changes. Argentina benefit from being in the 4N but the real plus was being able to bring their best players home to be together more often - and the only reason Jaguares are in Super Rugby is to allow a 6th SA franchise.

    So unless it suits the home nations to have a strong Italy I can't see things improving.