Weight/Lightness VS Discs
Comments
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Well, why else would you want discs? Case closed. 8)Pinno wrote:964Cup wrote:
I think you misunderstood me - what I meant was that if you're riding off-road (properly, I mean, with jumps and tree-roots and so on) you will quite often knock a wheel out of true, or break a spoke. With rim brakes, an out-of-true wheel can mean a cab-ride; with discs it usually just means a slightly wobbly bike ride.Pinno wrote:964Cup wrote:...it's much more likely that you'll knock a rim out of true - which doesn't matter at all with disc, and very much does with caliper.
Just picking up on that point (and don't get me wrong), I always set the calipers up so that they pinch the rims simultaneously. Never had a wheel out of true due to braking.
'Off road' ?! Wrong forum.
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Roadie prejudices out in force again.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
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thecycleclinic wrote:Roadie predujices out in force again.
You were expecting rational, objective input?! :roll:seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
No but it would be nice for once.that would really throw us all.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
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We did all that already. Now we're bored. We all know that the truth is that it doesn't really matter and is largely down to personal preference, unless you're an extreme weight-weenie (not disc), do a lot of bridleways and tow-paths (disc) [or 'gravel' assuming you're American], or are a cautious descender (disc again).thecycleclinic wrote:No but it would be nice for once.that would really throw us all.
The industry wants us to go disc because a) then we all buy new bikes, new wheelsets, new tools etc and b) they can have more parts standardisation between road, off-road and commuter bikes. So sticking with caliper is also sticking it to the man, in a way.0 -
964Cup wrote:a cautious descender (disc again).
Like a lot of your other points (which have been done to death over the last 5 years) I couldn't disagree more with this point. It's the equivalent of saying race cars should have small discs up front and drums at the rear - and only cautious drivers should have monster 6-pots and drilled & vented dinner plates. It's utter nonsense. But then I think you know that.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
No, I think you're saying ordinary hatchbacks should be fitted with 380mm six-pot carbon ceramics. If you can brake hard enough with *any* braking system to overcome the grip of the tyres in the dry, that braking system is adequate (provided it can do so repeatedly etc).meanredspider wrote:964Cup wrote:a cautious descender (disc again).
Like a lot of your other points (which have been done to death over the last 5 years) I couldn't disagree more with this point. It's the equivalent of saying race cars should have small discs up front and drums at the rear - and only cautious drivers should have monster 6-pots and drilled & vented dinner plates. It's utter nonsense. But then I think you know that.
It's hard to give your own experience without sounding like you're bragging, but here goes. The only times on the road I have ever felt that my brakes were really inadequate were coming down Alpe d'Huez with the wrong pads on the rear (Exalith rim, regular pad, long story, no effective rear brake) - it still wasn't all that frightening, but I had to temper my pace - and riding in that soaking wet RLS100 on old-school carbon rims (DTSwiss RRC425F/RRC525R) when descending around other people who were braking unpredictably. I could still happily control my speed from my own perspective, but was having to work hard to react to unexpected retardation ahead of me.
On the other hand, once I'd got the right pads on the rear, those Exalith rims were mighty for the rest of that Alpine trip, including a soaking wet descent of the CdF. If you can brake for the sharp turn into the valley before the hairpins on the descent back into Oz in the pissing rain without frightening yourself, I think your brakes are adequate. Similarly, this summer we did a load of things around Chamonix in the dry (yay!) and I had no trouble throughout with braking on AX Lightness Ultra 24Ts (carbon tubulars). Peak speed (says Veloviewer) was 113km/h, and I had no trouble keeping up with those who were on discs.
I just don't buy the argument that you need discs on a road bike. I'm not saying they don't work, I'm saying that although discs are indeed more effective than drums on cars, my Fiat 500 still has drums on the rear and that seems to stop perfectly adequately.0 -
Yup - but as been said over-and-over, it's NOT just about locking the wheel. A stick in the spokes can achieve that. And limit of adhesion isn't constant - it's a function of the load on the tyre. I seriously can't be bothered to go through the dynamics of it all but, if you get to grips with that, you'll realise why disc brakes are better.
Plenty of experience of braking on the Alpe with lots of cars and other bikes (during ADH6) so I know how discs compare.
As for the Fiat 500, a lap of Blyton in my (leased) 595 had the ("updated") brakes cooked - drums on my kids' standard 1.2 500 wouldn't last half a lap. 6 pots on my old Alfa will take relentless punishment around any track in races.
The consensus, as far as there is one, is that rim brakes are fine for very light riders, riders who are mostly on the flat and whom ride mostly in the dry. I wouldn't argue with any of that. In most other cases, discs are better brakes. Of course, the choice is always the rider's.
Anyhow, this discussion has been done to death.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Just get a cat instead.0
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But this is the whole point. I wouldn't take my 500 on the track at all; that's not what it's for. This is about fitness for purpose, not absolute efficacy. The reason Fiat fit drums to the back of 500s is because they're cheaper and last longer. They're a perfectly adequate braking solution for the uses to which 500s are normally put. I'm going to continue to say that rim brakes are perfectly adequate braking solutions for the uses to which bicycles are normally put (which includes descending cols). They're also cheaper (some of the time), easier to maintain and IME last longer - I was getting through a set of Nukeproof Enduro pads on my CdF every 1500km of commuting, which is ridiculous - when I switched to a rim-braked bike a set of boggo Shimano pads lasted twice as long.meanredspider wrote:As for the Fiat 500, a lap of Blyton in my (leased) 595 had the ("updated") brakes cooked - drums on my kids' standard 1.2 500 wouldn't last half a lap. 6 pots on my old Alfa will take relentless punishment around any track in races.
If you want another car analogy, take the race car whence I take my forum name. It used to run big reds (already an upgrade over the standard Cup brakes). Then I cooked the brakes overdriving the car at Oulton on inappropriate tyres (long story, should have scratched, instead borrowed someone's road wheels for a "treaded tyre" race, 888s weren't really a match for cut slicks), crashed it. "Upgraded" to 380mm six-pots off a GT car (and deleted the ABS). Loads more stop, but less modulation and much harder to find the right brake balance. In other words, I'd have been better off leaving well alone, paying more attention to the race regs in future so I brought the right wheels (and managing my ego - I'd won the previous two races that day, so thought I was "invincible" - I wasn't), and improving my driving.
So yes, yes, you can have 140mm rotors etc and I get the modulation argument, but having ridden both, I still don't see the compelling advantage of discs for any road riding situation. Roubaix, yes. Cross, yes. But until they can make a disc wheelset that weighs 780g, I'm sticking with rim brakes 'cos it's the going up bit that I find hard.0 -
Pinno wrote:Discs may compensate for a lack of bike handling skills?
IMO it comes down to this and man's desire for something new/the next big thing.
Disc brakes on a road bike will not make you a better or safer rider. Knowing how to ride a road bike in all conditions makes you a better and safer rider.0 -
Considering that the pro's have been hurtling down the cols in the major tours for Donkey's on rim brakes and the relative lack of incident...seanoconn - gruagach craic!0
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964Cup wrote:If you want another car analogy, take the race car whence I take my forum name. It used to run big reds (already an upgrade over the standard Cup brakes). Then I cooked the brakes overdriving the car at Oulton on inappropriate tyres (long story, should have scratched, instead borrowed someone's road wheels for a "treaded tyre" race, 888s weren't really a match for cut slicks), crashed it. "Upgraded" to 380mm six-pots off a GT car (and deleted the ABS). Loads more stop, but less modulation and much harder to find the right brake balance. In other words, I'd have been better off leaving well alone, paying more attention to the race regs in future so I brought the right wheels (and managing my ego - I'd won the previous two races that day, so thought I was "invincible" - I wasn't), and improving my driving.
The story of the 6-pots seems like inept engineering - assuming you'd deleted the servo (as you should), then the bore of the m/c was wrong. And, much like a bicycle, brake balance in a road car isn't a big deal provided the fronts are locking before the rears - there's so much weight transfer that the front wheels do nearly all of the braking in the dry. And that's why, on a bike, it's hard to lock the front (provided you build brake pressure) because the pressure on that tiny patch of rubber is so very high. And the improved modulation of discs (there's far less "flex" in the system) allows you to do that.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
thegreatdivide wrote:Disc brakes on a road bike will not make you a better or safer rider. Knowing how to ride a road bike in all conditions makes you a better and safer rider.
Apart from the brakes actually working properly in the wet. That that doesn't make you safer, oh no..... :roll:ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
If I hear disc brakes are harder to maintain one more time ffs....
Use them, just use them. Buy a bike with hydraulic disc brakes and you'll do 10 minutes maintenance a year if like me, you do 6k a year all weather commuting.
The 10 minutes is for two changes of pads - they last me approx 3000 miles for a set.
That's it, literally nothing else to touch. No toeing in, no adjusting cables as the pads wear down, nothing.
End of discussion (for that point anyway)0 -
CookeeeMonster wrote:If I hear disc brakes are harder to maintain one more time ffs....
Use them, just use them. Buy a bike with hydraulic disc brakes and you'll do 10 minutes maintenance a year if like me, you do 6k a year all weather commuting.
The 10 minutes is for two changes of pads - they last me approx 3000 miles for a set.
That's it, literally nothing else to touch. No toeing in, no adjusting cables as the pads wear down, nothing.
End of discussion (for that point anyway)
+1 You don't even need to worry about how true the wheel is.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
meanredspider wrote:964Cup wrote:If you want another car analogy, take the race car whence I take my forum name. It used to run big reds (already an upgrade over the standard Cup brakes). Then I cooked the brakes overdriving the car at Oulton on inappropriate tyres (long story, should have scratched, instead borrowed someone's road wheels for a "treaded tyre" race, 888s weren't really a match for cut slicks), crashed it. "Upgraded" to 380mm six-pots off a GT car (and deleted the ABS). Loads more stop, but less modulation and much harder to find the right brake balance. In other words, I'd have been better off leaving well alone, paying more attention to the race regs in future so I brought the right wheels (and managing my ego - I'd won the previous two races that day, so thought I was "invincible" - I wasn't), and improving my driving.
The story of the 6-pots seems like inept engineering - assuming you'd deleted the servo (as you should), then the bore of the m/c was wrong. And, much like a bicycle, brake balance in a road car isn't a big deal provided the fronts are locking before the rears - there's so much weight transfer that the front wheels do nearly all of the braking in the dry. And that's why, on a bike, it's hard to lock the front (provided you build brake pressure) because the pressure on that tiny patch of rubber is so very high. And the improved modulation of discs (there's far less "flex" in the system) allows you to do that.
Actually, no, it was about essentially overbraking the car. At 1030kg it was hard to get enough temperature into the brakes especially in the wet and/or on cold tyres, so the fronts would start out wooden, then as they warmed up you'd need to wind the balance back towards the rear of the car to compensate. You got used to it, but it was a less user-friendly system than the one it replaced.
Incidentally, are you usually this rude to people you don't know, or is it something you save for special occasions? I feel for whoever it is you're race engineer for.0 -
Not been my experience. I've got two sets of Magura full hydraulics on mountain bikes, both running mineral oil, not DOT. I've had to bleed them repeatedly (which is a vile, messy job), I still can't get proper lever feel, you need exactly the right size of shim to space the pads when you're bleeding them, blah blah. (and yes, other people have tried too, it''s not me being inept). Same, frankly, with the TRP HyRDs on my cross bike. Perhaps I need to try the new generation of road bike systems again, but I've not yet ridden a disc bike that didn't have twice the level travel I'd want, and way too much movement before you get any bite. And sure, no toeing-in, but you still have to arse about centering the caliper when you change wheelset, especially if you have different models of discs on the wheels.CookeeeMonster wrote:If I hear disc brakes are harder to maintain one more time ffs....
Use them, just use them. Buy a bike with hydraulic disc brakes and you'll do 10 minutes maintenance a year if like me, you do 6k a year all weather commuting.
The 10 minutes is for two changes of pads - they last me approx 3000 miles for a set.
That's it, literally nothing else to touch. No toeing in, no adjusting cables as the pads wear down, nothing.
End of discussion (for that point anyway)0 -
964Cup wrote:
Not been my experience. I've got two sets of Magura full hydraulics on mountain bikes, both running mineral oil, not DOT. I've had to bleed them repeatedly (which is a vile, messy job), I still can't get proper lever feel, you need exactly the right size of shim to space the pads when you're bleeding them, blah blah. (and yes, other people have tried too, it''s not me being inept). Same, frankly, with the TRP HyRDs on my cross bike. Perhaps I need to try the new generation of road bike systems again, but I've not yet ridden a disc bike that didn't have twice the level travel I'd want, and way too much movement before you get any bite. And sure, no toeing-in, but you still have to ars* about centering the caliper when you change wheelset, especially if you have different models of discs on the wheels.CookeeeMonster wrote:If I hear disc brakes are harder to maintain one more time ffs....
Use them, just use them. Buy a bike with hydraulic disc brakes and you'll do 10 minutes maintenance a year if like me, you do 6k a year all weather commuting.
The 10 minutes is for two changes of pads - they last me approx 3000 miles for a set.
That's it, literally nothing else to touch. No toeing in, no adjusting cables as the pads wear down, nothing.
End of discussion (for that point anyway)
Why are you riding road and/or cx bikes? They are soooooo slow!! I know, I rode a mountain bike once! :P
Yeah, the new generation of hydro discs (2year old shimano in my case) are pretty damn good, worth checking out the next big bike purchase you make (if wet weather riding especially)0 -
964Cup wrote:Actually, no, it was about essentially overbraking the car. At 1030kg it was hard to get enough temperature into the brakes especially in the wet and/or on cold tyres, so the fronts would start out wooden, then as they warmed up you'd need to wind the balance back towards the rear of the car to compensate. You got used to it, but it was a less user-friendly system than the one it replaced.
Incidentally, are you usually this rude to people you don't know, or is it something you save for special occasions? I feel for whoever it is you're race engineer for.
I race engineer for myself - I like to know how my car works and, should something go wrong, I've only myself to blame. I guess, since being rude was your approach to people riding discs, I thought you'd be fine with the same tone back.
My car only weighs 850kg and runs 6-pots on 380mm discs. I've chosen an m/c diameter to maximise the feel. As my car runs less power than my key competitors (BMW 2002s mostly), I rely on being able to out-brake them. I work hard on generating heat in my fronts on the green flag lap as there's generally places to be had braking into the first corner.
So, going back to your comments about disc-braked riders (which is, after all, the point of the thread), I'm both confident and competent at descending both hard and fast and all the more so on brakes that work well and consistently because they're designed to good engineering principles.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
meanredspider wrote:thegreatdivide wrote:Disc brakes on a road bike will not make you a better or safer rider. Knowing how to ride a road bike in all conditions makes you a better and safer rider.
Apart from the brakes actually working properly in the wet. That that doesn't make you safer, oh no..... :roll:
I know how to stop my bike in the wet.0 -
Great, another discs v rims debate. Not enough of them on the web IMO.
I also go for the "just get a cat" option.0 -
Show me where in my posts I was rude?meanredspider wrote:I've only myself to blame. I guess, since being rude was your approach to people riding discs, I thought you'd be fine with the same tone back.0 -
964Cup wrote:Show me where in my posts I was rude?964Cup wrote:or are a cautious descender (disc again).
Absolutely no correlation between "cautiousness" and disc use. In fact you could argue quite the reverse - better brakes mean later, harder, braking. If, to use your anology, you're descending on the equivalent of a Fiat 500, and only going slowly, less good brakes are entirely adequate...ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Bobbinogs wrote:Great, another discs v rims debate. Not enough of them on the web IMO.
I also go for the "just get a cat" option.
Yes - sorry - I'm both at a loose end and extremely low tolerance - it's a bad combination. I'll stop now. As I said earlier in the thread, there's a pretty good consensus on when rims and discs are appropriate- I should leave it at that.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
meanredspider wrote:
I don't think that's rude. While discs might make for better performance if you're trying hard, that's (in the case of cycling) unproven at least until we see how the pro peloton get on. On the other hand, if you descend on the brakes the whole time you will eventually pop a tyre (if using clinchers and rim brakes) and discs are therefore without question the right choice for you. We had a very wide spread of descending speed on the last trip I did, and a couple of the slowest guys - whom I'd describe (and so would they) as cautious - did indeed pop tyres (one managed to pop both) and would have been far better off on discs.0 -
I have heard all the arguments against a hundred times, none of them change my mind as in my experience hydraulic discs are as good or better nearly 100% of the time. Whether people agree or not I find the braking feel and performance better. If you want reliability buy some decent spec Shimano hydraulics and be done with it
In summary, ride lots of different setups, decide which you like most then ignore advice on the internet because you've a better chance of winning the lottery than finding consensus on road disc brakes on this forum...benterz222 wrote:HaydenM wrote:benterz222 wrote:I have no idea what this b. 1998 thing means!?
He is a never ending troll with multiple usernames asking questions that he knows will get people's knickers in a twist, they might start off reasonably ok then after a few more posts it's obvious he's trolling but people can't help themselves and it descends into madness rapidly. For some reason it seemed like your first post was worded deliberately to start one of many hundred debates about disc brakes on here, apologies!
I personally wouldn't go for discs specifically over rim unless they are hydraulic, and then I would look more carefully about the rest of the spec/weight. One of my bikes has mechanical discs, they are fine but not really an improvement. If you were just deciding between a TCR disc and a Propel I'd say there are much more important things to consider between the two than disc/no disc. I think I'm right in saying you'd have to decide if you wan't aero or not. Those Propels do look lovely in the flesh which is far more important than discs after all
Ah right ok, thanks for clearing that up. It's a sorry state of affairs when you can't even post a genuine question on a bike forum without people assuming you're "trolling"... :?
After reading this thread hopefully you will forgive me for thinking you might be a troll...0 -
I really don't like cats, but using a cat for brakes is just plain cruel. I know someone that used a rabbit for a brake (unintentionally) it didn't end well for her but was worse for the rabbit. Discs are better if you ride in the wet, rims are fine if dry only. Either would be better than using furry creatures.Garry H wrote:Just get a cat instead.0 -
My mate Will used a pigeon once. That was messier to clean up than hydraulics...0
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I used a badger last winter on a night ride, thankfully my rotor didn't slice into it though or it could have been horrible...0
