Is a Poppy a Political Symbol.

pinno

Ti yred wrote:

Christ I've read some stuff on the internet in my time but this really raised my eyebrows...

Is the poppy a political symbol?

In my opinion (just mine), as someone who served in the British Army and whose Great Grandfather served and died at the Battle of Arras in 1916, the Poppy is not political. It is simply a symbol of remembrance. That's it.

Both my Great Grandfather and I chose to join up, my Great Grandfather enlisting at the age of 36 in 1915 leaving behind a wife and three children to do what he felt was right, I, securing a guaranteed vacancy at 15 1/2 and joining straight from school. Not because of my Great Grandfather ( I had no knowledge of him at this time) but because I wanted to serve my country as a Soldier.

We both served in conflicts, him in Northern France, me in the first Gulf War and Northern Ireland.

I wear the poppy to remember him, three lads I served with and died in different places at different times and all the others who served and suffer the mental scars of their service.

I have PTSD. I live with it and with depression as a result of my service. I am not alone.

The poppy allows me to demonstrate my feelings of loss and sorrow for my fellow servicemen.

It, like many other symbols (the swastika is a good example) have been hijacked for many means.

Sod all the pshrink stuff and all the philosophy. Next time you see a veteran wearing a poppy - ask them what it means to them. You wont get political or philosophical answers. You'll be told its to remember. Their comrades in arms. Their friends who served. Ask them - you will get an honest answer whether you like it or not.

I have re-iterated my view that the poppy is a symbol of remembrance and almost exclusively that again and again.

The philosophy is a counter argument for the politically correct. Generally, they can't live with it.

Stevo_666

Ti yred wrote:

Christ I've read some stuff on the internet in my time but this really raised my eyebrows...

Is the poppy a political symbol?

In my opinion (just mine), as someone who served in the British Army and whose Great Grandfather served and died at the Battle of Arras in 1916, the Poppy is not political. It is simply a symbol of remembrance. That's it.

Both my Great Grandfather and I chose to join up, my Great Grandfather enlisting at the age of 36 in 1915 leaving behind a wife and three children to do what he felt was right, I, securing a guaranteed vacancy at 15 1/2 and joining straight from school. Not because of my Great Grandfather ( I had no knowledge of him at this time) but because I wanted to serve my country as a Soldier.

We both served in conflicts, him in Northern France, me in the first Gulf War and Northern Ireland.

I wear the poppy to remember him, three lads I served with and died in different places at different times and all the others who served and suffer the mental scars of their service.

I have PTSD. I live with it and with depression as a result of my service. I am not alone.

The poppy allows me to demonstrate my feelings of loss and sorrow for my fellow servicemen.

It, like many other symbols (the swastika is a good example) have been hijacked for many means.

Sod all the pshrink stuff and all the philosophy. Next time you see a veteran wearing a poppy - ask them what it means to them. You wont get political or philosophical answers. You'll be told its to remember. Their comrades in arms. Their friends who served. Ask them - you will get an honest answer whether you like it or not.

Well said that man.

Your thoughts on this please Rick.....

rick_chasey

Look I'm not against wearing poppies or remembering dead soldiers.

But when you're remembering your mates you're not remembering the guys on the other side (quite rightly), but given the English football team might be playing people who are related to those who fell at the sword of the British Army, that wouldn't be diplomatic, nor would it be apolitical.

Your own experience of the war might be very apolitical - if anything that's what an army ought to be - but that doesn't mean the sum of its parts isn't.

War is politics. Ergo, remembering war dead is political. Ergo, by the rules of FIFA, shouldn't be allowed for internarionals.

haydenm

Rick Chasey wrote:

But when you're remembering your mates you're not remembering the guys on the other side (quite rightly), but given the English football team might be playing people who are related to those who fell at the sword of the British Army, that wouldn't be diplomatic, nor would it be apolitical.

PBlakeney wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

How people can't see that remembering the dead of active combatants on one side of a war (and therefore, by implication, not the other) isn't political is beyond me. If you can't see that, then arguing is a pointless task.

Not for one moment have I ever considered the memorial to be on one side only.
I think the poppy is to remember ALL the fallen, ergo not political for me.

When I think about my great granddad fighting in the Somme I imagine thousands of young men dying in the mud a long way from home. If we can't be respectful of war dead on both sides then we haven't learnt anything. Admittedly this becomes tricky in more recent conflicts where emotions are still running high but the same goes whether we like it or not. It's only political if the wearer or the person who becomes offended thinks it is, if they are both respectful then it isn't. This all comes down to whether offence has been caused, seeing as you can't police who will be offended it has to be decided through good will and respect between teams/management prior to games.

I don't know whether that view is especially popular with Veterans though, and it wasn't well reflected by the local religious leader's speech on Remembrance Sunday here either which I thought was a bit sad

kingstongraham

The same rule says that there should not be political symbols prohibits "political, religious, commercial, personal statements, images and/or other announcements".

It's either political or a personal statement, surely.

mrfpb

Is the poppy political?

Maybe (though I'd say no), but it's a lot less political than waving the St George Cross or Saltire isn't it? Fifa has got it's knickers well and truly in a twist when it starts discuplinary procedures over fans wearing poppies. And commercial images? That is a joke.

ti_yred

Rick Chasey wrote:

Look I'm not against wearing poppies or remembering dead soldiers.

But when you're remembering your mates you're not remembering the guys on the other side (quite rightly), but given the English football team might be playing people who are related to those who fell at the sword of the British Army, that wouldn't be diplomatic, nor would it be apolitical.

Your own experience of the war might be very apolitical - if anything that's what an army ought to be - but that doesn't mean the sum of its parts isn't.

War is politics. Ergo, remembering war dead is political. Ergo, by the rules of FIFA, shouldn't be allowed for internarionals.

Actually Rick, I think you are wrong in this. As a soldier you learn to respect your enemy because you realise that by doing so you can better understand them. In doing so you also realise that you have everything in common with them. There is plenty of evidence from Falklands veterans on both sides about the respect they have for each other, recent documentaries have covered this. Without wishing to go into details, one reason for my sustaining PTSD is to do with witnessing the death of an 'enemy' combatant. I have that video replaying in my head and it will never leave me. I think of that man each and every Remembrance Sunday and when I wear my poppy. Perhaps I should have made that clear.

I fully support the right of anyone who wishes not to wear a poppy, after all we (hopefully) serve in the name of freedom, including freedom of speech and the right to demonstrate our beliefs whether or not others agree with them.

I would say though that I'm not entirely sure the remembrance Poppy symbol is entirely appropriate to be worn by sporting teams etc as I fell it misrepresents the poppy and what I feel it stands for. A English football pundit commented he thought the FA were wrong and should have backed down, giving any possible fine to a veterans charity instead if they really wanted to demonstrate their commitment to the poppy. I happen to agree with him, because now the poppy HAS become misrepresented and is being used as a cosh that FIFA can beat the FA with.

So, for me, the Poppy is a symbol of remembrance that those of us who wish to, can demonstrate our beliefs regarding conflict and armed service. I did, and still would, defend the right of someone who wished not to do so.

rick_chasey

Sure, but with all due respect, had you been fighting some sadistic genocidal maniacs, I'd kinda hope that you wouldn't be 'remembering' them...

And one man's genocidal maniac is another man's...etc.

You get the drift.

ti_yred

Rick Chasey wrote:

Sure, but with all due respect, had you been fighting some sadistic genocidal maniacs, I'd kinda hope that you wouldn't be 'remembering' them...

And one man's genocidal maniac is another man's...etc.

You get the drift.

Rick,

The genocidal maniacs are more commonly known as Drill Sergeants Major

mrfpb

Rick Chasey wrote:

Sure, but with all due respect, had you been fighting some sadistic genocidal maniacs, I'd kinda hope that you wouldn't be 'remembering' them...

And one man's genocidal maniac is another man's...etc.

You get the drift.

It's not the genocidal maniacs you meet on the front line, they tend to let the ordinary folk do that bit for them.

finchy

There seems to be an assumption on this thread that "political" is negative. It isn't, politics is just about the way that decisions are made about the running of society. It could be the local parish council meeting, deciding to buy a new climbing frame for the local park, it could be the government deciding to take us to war, it could be people turning up at a demonstration.

So yes, I would say that the poppy is a political symbol in that it has been accepted by the nation as the main symbol of remembrance for those who risked/lost their lives or physical/mental health fighting in wars. We have decided that those people deserve to be remembered (unlike, say, agricultural workers who get killed at work as they feed us), and probably rightly so, given the scale of suffering involved in wars. But these are still political decisions, and I don't see that in a negative light at all.

pinno

You have a point Finchy.

I also think that FIFA are absolute hypocrites with their backhanders, hand shakes and brown envelopes.

finchy

^^^ FIFA take corruption to comically high levels. Sometimes you've just got to admire the sheer audacity of the organisation.

Stevo_666

pinno

88k fine. Pittance. Next year, a whole poppy kit.

chris_bass

imagine if they hadn't worn the poppies and been able to donate £90k instead

pblakeney

Chris Bass wrote:

imagine if they hadn't worn the poppies and been able to donate £90k instead

1/3 weeks wages for one player split between 4 federations?
I imagine that they could do so quite easily. Should they wish to do so.

Stevo_666

Chris Bass wrote:

imagine if they hadn't worn the poppies and been able to donate £90k instead

The publicity has probably generated a fair bit of extra donations. I've given something recently because of this. So they should probably do it again next year...

Stevo_666

Here's an idea:

tangled_metal

Symbols being political? How about national flags? National flags are political because they're representing a political entity. So looking at the national football federation logos I'm seeing a lot of flags among them. Italian and Swedish sides for example. Do they get fined?

Pick and choose FIFA. Is there anyway to ditch FIFA and start afresh? Imagine Europe and south America combine to form a new international body. How long before the money leaves FIFA? Fanciful idea i know.

One more thing. FA is rich enough to not feel this fine. Wales less so but i bet they're not bothered by the fines. I hope it's repeated every year from now on. Pointless FIFA action. No deterrent at all.