Is a Poppy a Political Symbol.

Tashman

Chris Bass wrote:

Tashman wrote:

I don't ever remember it before.

that's quite ironic

Boom Tish!

veronese68

It should be down to personal choice to wear one or not, as cycleclinic said there's nothing wrong with putting some money in a pot and not wearing a poppy. To my mind the poppy commemorates the fallen, whoever they may be. If you were to say it only applies to the British then it becomes political. As I recall the symbol came from the poem "On Flanders Fields" in which poppies were the frost things to grow. Poppies don't care what nationality the body in the ground is, nor should we. War is a terrible thing for all involved and is a dreadful loss of life on both sides, they should all be remembered in the hope that we can avoid such things in future.

fat daddy

Veronese68 wrote:

If you were to say it only applies to the British then it becomes political. As I recall the symbol came from the poem "On Flanders Fields" in which poppies were the frost things to grow. Poppies don't care what nationality the body in the ground is, nor should we..

so the money that is collected from Poppy sales, goes to the fallen of other countries as well does it ? .... or does it just go to British service and families ???

serious question .... I was under the opinion that is was the RBL that collected the money and used it solely for Briish service personnel and families ... that being the case, you can claim all you like that its about remembering everyone, but it doesn't actually symbolise that does it, it symbolises the British Forces and considering we have been rather active over the years in conflicts around the world, its obvious to me how another nation could be offended by another country wearing a symbol of its Armed Forces. ...... considering that football is meant to bring nations together, keeping their personal symbols of war out of it, might just be considered the best thing to do .... they can still put there poppy back on after the game

courtmed

I think one of the main issues with this is that people just think of their personal views "I just wear it to remember". For a lot of people the poppy is a political symbol showing support for British troops (not just WW1/2), and then the lines being to blur with showing support for British wars/military in general & some people don't want to be associated with that. Which I think is fair enough.

Regardless of it being a political symbol, I don't really see the need for it at football. Smacks of the bellends on Strictly and X-Factor wearing sparkly ones, people having a go at newsreaders for not wearing one. Almost as if it's not enough to give some cash to the RBL, we've all got to be seen to be giving, be seen to care etc otherwise it's safe to assume you don't care.

pblakeney

I wonder if FIFA would object to remembering these football players, among the many others?
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 43741.html

tim_wand

political


/pəˈlɪtɪk(ə)l/


adjective

adjective: political



1.


of or relating to the government or public affairs of a country.
"a period of political and economic stability"


synonyms: governmental, government, local government, ministerial, parliamentary, party political, diplomatic, legislative, policy-making, constitutional, public, civic, state, administrative, bureaucratic
"the political affairs of the nation"




•relating to the ideas or strategies of a particular party or group in politics.
"a decision taken for purely political reasons"


synonyms: activist, active, militant, factional, partisan, party, party political
"he certainly wasn't a political animal"




•interested in or active in politics.
"I'm not very political"



•motivated



Okay if you accept ( and I don't ) That the Poppy only relates to Commonwealth countries , then there is some argument that its symbolic of a Political group.

I accept that any decision relating to War has and always is the result of Political Governance and decision making.

So by some very tenious definition The decision that F.I.F.A has taken on this complies with their mandate of No Political symbolism,

However as they themselves are the Symbolic Organisation of Governance over the most partisan , divisive and political sport in the World they should ban themselves.

I still say it should be Pro Choice , let the individuals playing decide themselves!

I respect James Maclean's Choice not to wear a poppy and would support anyone making a similar decision. But those wishing to wear one should also be allowed a choice.

tangled_metal

Just read an independent article about the poppy symbol of remembrance. Seems it's origins are American. Before 1920 an American teacher started to make it silk poppies to earn money for returning servicemen. She was inspired by an officer in the Canadian army who wrote the poem "in Flanders fields ".

Anyway after that the Americans declared the poppy as a national symbol of remembrance in 1920.

So how did it get over here? Well that's after 1921 when a French woman who'd been.making and selling poppies to raise money for ex servicemen brought it to England. She persuaded Haig to adopt the poppy and the rest led to the RBL poppy appeal using the commonly used.symbol of.remembrance...the poppy.

The symbol predated the RBL appeal. Whilst in this case the poppy armband is probably going to raise money for RBL it's purpose is predominantly about remembrance. Apolitical IMHO and I'm glad they're going ahead and wearing the armbands.

If you feel it glorifies war then wear the white poppy. That's about remembering the sacrifice but making.a statement that you're a coward, I mean a pacifist. Freudiant slip! Will Corbyn be wearing white or red poppy?

tangled_metal

Apparently poppies are used in NZ, Australia, Canada, south Africa, Sri Lanka, Malawi, Kazakhstan and even more countries I can't remember.

In the France they mostly use a blue cornflower but the red poppy is also used.

Apart from that there's a lot sent to.embassies for British ex pats.

Currently the London factory makes possibly the.most poppies and exports them round the world. France also makes them and Australia too. France BTW was the second country to make them, out of silk originally. Also in France it was.French widows an orphans who started off making them for charity. A kind of self help job for them after the war.

mrfpb

thecycleclinic wrote:

In one way the service personal chose to join up and those that die out themselves at the disposal of the political masters. The civilians did not they where in the wrong place and the wrong time.

Most of the service personnel of WW1/WW2 did not have a choice about joining up - the ranks were filled by conscription, neither did a lot of the older beneficiaries of RBL.

Tashman

mrfpb wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

In one way the service personal chose to join up and those that die out themselves at the disposal of the political masters. The civilians did not they where in the wrong place and the wrong time.

Most of the service personnel of WW1/WW2 did not have a choice about joining up - the ranks were filled by conscription, neither did a lot of the older beneficiaries of RBL.

+1

pottssteve

Brilliant Matt cartoon in today's Telegraph:



Sums it up nicely, really...

tangled_metal

Get RBL to slip FIFA a bung from match day poppy sales. Get it past their ethics committee (should be easy) by saying it's about promoting football as recovery for leg amputees from war zones or something like that. Then FIFA president gets his new house extension or something.

Tongue fairly deep into my cheek with this suggestion. Obviously paying even.the maximum fines will be cheaper than the bungs!

slowmart

I was raised believing Remembrance Day was to remember the fallen on both sides. The poppy is a symbol of this and used by various organisations to raise awareness and cash for their own charitable appeals.

As Pinno said, symbols mean different things to different folks.

tim_wand

mrfpb wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

In one way the service personal chose to join up and those that die out themselves at the disposal of the political masters. The civilians did not they where in the wrong place and the wrong time.

Most of the service personnel of WW1/WW2 did not have a choice about joining up - the ranks were filled by conscription, neither did a lot of the older beneficiaries of RBL.

@ The Cycle Clinic. Conscription and National service accounted for the Majority of Service men and Women until 1963.
You needed to be in a protected trade or have a pretty good medical reason to avoid service. Especially during World War I and World War 11. Some people were actually executed ( since posthumously pardoned ) under the treason act for not doing War service. Even those with legitimate excuse or pardon were turned on and ostracised by their own families and communities at the time.

Its the sacrifice of the Butcher . Bakers and Candlestick makers who went to War to protect the liberty of Europe that we all benefit from and should rightly remember now. And I accept that part of those freedoms is to Wear or not Wear a poppy as you so choose. Its a personal choice , not a political allegiance.

laurentian

Wearing a poppy should be a matter of choice.

Despite some of the arguments above, I honestly can't see how it can be construed as political.

We frequently see football teams wearing a black arm band in recognition of a deceased ex player or club official. If a player had recently lost someone close to them and wanted to wear a black armband to mark this, would FIFA stop them? Even if they did this in isolation?

I don't see wearing a poppy as being any more "political" than wearing that armband. They are worn to remember the fallen in conflict. Whether you agree with the conflict or not, the poppy is how that remembrance is expressed. For me personally, it also represents the vacuous futility of war and is a symbol of why we should, in the act of remembrance, try to ensure that wars don't happen (yeah, I know, but we can hope).

Most of those lost to war were victims of politics, not practitioners of it. I don't wear mine to remember political parties, ideologies or even politicians. I wear it to remember the unwilling, the conscripted, the terrified and the brave on all sides regardless of who or what political system ultimately caused their early death.

To me a poppy is a symbol of remembrance of ordinary people who died in extraordinary circumstances. It's about the least political symbol I can think of.

tangled_metal

laurentian wrote:

For me personally, it also represents the vacuous futility of war and is a symbol of why we should, in the act of remembrance, try to ensure that wars don't happen (yeah, I know, but we can hope)..

It sounds like your poppy should be white not red.
http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/index.html

pinno

Wenger thinks the Poppy should be worn and he's French. From the BBC sport website:

Fifa is wrong to ban poppies on shirts for the World Cup qualifier between England and Scotland on Remembrance Day, says Arsenal boss Arsene Wenger.

The football associations of England and Scotland will defy Fifa and allow their players to wear black armbands with red poppy emblems for the match.

The Gunners boss said Fifa "should not get involved" in the issue.

World football's governing body prohibits political, religious or commercial messages on shirts.

"By wanting to be too politically correct you can go sometimes against tradition," Wenger added.

"In this case, I think that is part of the English culture that I love. They respect tradition and they respect people who have given their life for the country."

cycleclinic

I dont onject to the poppy symbol of the remberence service. I think it is important. My wifes dad served in wwII and she promised him before he died she would wear his medals and march on the remberence day parade. I fully support this and i want to take my daughter down to watch. Remberence is for me reminding us all about the futility of war as It is a total failure of poltics. Post 1963 military service is a choice. A choice to be respected and we can all remrmber those that have died. The choice to remember those that have died fighting on behalf of the u.k is political. To choose to wear a symbol to show rememberance is political. Politics does not have to be about party alfiliation. It is political because you are identifying with a u.k state instituations. The military is at the heart of the organs of state. We choose to support the militiary by remembering those who have died which in turn we support the state itself. How anyone cannot see that this is as political as it gets is beyond me. In a free society we should be free to display or not to display symbols of support. Not displaying should mot be taken as lack of support it shoild be taken as you are not wearing a poppy simple as as a choice. Like i choose what clothes to wear in the morning and i would give anyone a earful if they tried to tell me what to wear. In the same way on the 11th england and scots player should come out with huge poppies as a sign of defiance to being told what not to wear amd what politocal to hold or not to hold. Those that thumb there nose deserve respect. Actually part of the reason why i choose not to wear the poppy is the expecation that i should. Sjoild i be told i should not to wear one i would wear one.

I always find it confusing how more is read into a post than i actually wrote.

pinno

The weather stopping you getting out Cycleclinic?

So what you are saying is that the poppy is a political symbol but despite that, we should have the freedom to display it?

I'd go with that.

cycleclinic

No the worse the westher the more i get out. Did 2 hrs before work because i choose too. If loose the right to choose then there is no point in choosing to fight anymore. That was the problem with consription there was no choice. Also we should not have to donate to the legion to support veterns as the goverment who sent these folks to fight jn the first olace should be all that is required and more. The fact the sucessive goverments dont means we are sending the wrong people to parliment or we ourselves do not take seriously enough the after care soliders need. I think it is the latter myself.

pinno

thecycleclinic wrote:

...Also we should not have to donate to the legion to support veterns as the goverment who sent these folks to fight jn the first olace should be all that is required and more...

But isn't that the same for a lot of organisations in the voluntary and charitable sector? I think that there are some essential services delivered by not for profit organisations that should be run by the state.

pblakeney

thecycleclinic wrote:

Also we should not have to donate to the legion to support veterns as the goverment who sent these folks to fight jn the first olace should be all that is required and more.

I agree in principle.
Trouble is, it would mean additional taxation so we will pay either way.

pinno

PBlakeney wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

Also we should not have to donate to the legion to support veterns as the goverment who sent these folks to fight jn the first olace should be all that is required and more.

I agree in principle.
Trouble is, it would mean additional taxation so we will pay either way.

In a recent poll, the public said unanimously that they were happy to pay an extra penny in income tax to support the NHS. I wonder if there is scope for a 2p increase or at least, a participle of the taxation system that goes directly to what it is intended. I mean, road tax goes into the general pool of taxation for example and then the distribution of those proceeds is arbitrary. If we had democratically decreed participles in the tax we pay, it would be a form of empowerment.
You get what you pay for then.

mrfpb

Watching Question Time last night, some audience members clearly demonstrated that it was political to them. One audience member angrily told Huey Morgan (former US marine) that he had no right to an opinion on the poppy as he wasn't British.

tangled_metal

Ignorant! The poppy symbol was originally an American symbol of remembrance even before it came to Britain. 1918 was the earliest origins of red poppy symbol of remembrance. An American teacher got hold of some silk, dyed it red and made poppies out of it for friends and families. It then became a fundraiser for American WWI veterans and their families. All based on a Canadian air force officer's poem about Flanders.

I didn't see that bit of QT but there was an older UKIPer with an oversized poppy on who tanned a bit much. He made little sense if you ask me but Huey (of Fun Loving Criminals fame - Scooby snacks) made a lot of sense. He was.highly articulate even though he seemed a bit out of his political depth. Some celebrity QTers are very politically and debating capable. Huey just had interesting things to say in a reasonable way. Not political enough for QT IMHO.

BTW IMHO racists and bigots often claim symbols for their own ends. The more bigotted end of UKIP was that older guy and I actually got offended by his comments while wearing the symbol of remembrance for people who served and suffered (with death or damage) for principles and their country.

It feels like we'll lose the poppy for awhile like the English flag was lost to the English people due to the adoption of it by the national front, BNP and other racist bodies.

veronese68

This is the point, the poppy is not just about the British or the British Legion.

smoggysteve

I always wear a poppy for remembrance. Mainly for the friends I have served with who have died in recent conflicts. I at the same time feel that it is something that should be personal. You wear it because you want to remember not because you want to be seen to be. I also have no choice but to wear one at work but regardless I always would. I personally am not completely happy with the way the RBL goes about things and I prefer to give money to H4H and the ABF as I feel they do more for current veterans who are more forgotten about than someone who died a century ago.

laurentian

Tangled Metal wrote:

laurentian wrote:

For me personally, it also represents the vacuous futility of war and is a symbol of why we should, in the act of remembrance, try to ensure that wars don't happen (yeah, I know, but we can hope)..

It sounds like your poppy should be white not red.
http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/index.html

Thanks for the link . . . has anyone ever worn both a red and a white poppy?

mrfpb

I wear the red poppy, but I find my stomach turns at any memorial or service that makes reference to "our glorious dead." Where on earth did the 'glorious' bit come from?

Tashman

mrfpb wrote:

I wear the red poppy, but I find my stomach turns at any memorial or service that makes reference to "our glorious dead." Where on earth did the 'glorious' bit come from?

Glorious meaning worthy is my interpretation. As in their worthy sacrifice