Is a Poppy a Political Symbol.

tim_wand

So F.I.F.A will not ( at present ) allow England and Scotland Football players competing on Armistice day at Wembley in the World cup Qualifier to wear Poppies on their shirts.

The reasoning behind this is that it is deemed to be making a Political Statement, and any such representations on Football kits are outlawed.

I Cant see how a Poppy is a Political Symbol or Statement, Certainly no more than say the Unicef Badge worn by Barca.

Surely it is no more than a Symbol of remembrance , and as such carries no Political meaning!

I really think we should give them a proper Political symbol ( i.e Sticking two fingers up at them ) and proceed however each individual player sees fit.

ballysmate

Let the players wear poppies if that is their wish. If there is a fine or points deduction, so be it.

Stevo_666

What a load of bollox. Tell F.I.F.A to F.O

sungod

afaik the use of the poppy as a formal symbol of remembrance is primarily by the uk and some of its allies, certainly not of most nations, which makes it 'political' by definition

unicef is of the united nations, hardly any 'proper' nations are not members and i believe even those want to be (palestine, taiwan, etc.), if the un truly is for all people then it's not a source of political difference, no issue with it being on a shirt

obvs they should have left it to the individual and never even asked fifa in the first place

as it is, we'll get reams of self righteous indignation in the media, self-promoting demagogues ranting about it, and an eventual climbdown, after which said media and demagogues will claim victory before moving on to seek the next chance they see to profit for themselves

mrfpb

Should celebs, newsreaders and everyone else have the right not to wear a poppy on the BBC?

city_boy

Stevo 666 wrote:

What a load of bollox. Tell F.I.F.A to F.O

+1

sungod

mrfpb wrote:

Should celebs, newsreaders and everyone else have the right not to wear a poppy on the BBC?

yes of course, whether or not someone is wearing one says absolutely nothing about that person's feelings or intent

reducing such a symbol to a token item to be checked off as present prior to going on air or out in public is obscene

i'm not of the usa, but i still cringe at the way their flag has become degraded into an obligatory lapel pin, we should treat the poppy with more respect

real life parallels to the glorious loyalty oath crusade in catch 22

verylonglegs

Every year we get these kind of stories in the media, it's getting rather predictable and tiresome. Was there ever a time when people just wore one or chose not to of their own accord and the world continued to go about its business without fuss? Am I imagining that?

As for this case...FIFA usually chuck out a fine of a few hundred grand for this sort of thing don't they? Let the players wear them and then tell them to pick up the tab for the fine, they'll only have to make do without the next Ferrari edition for a few months. I'm sure they'll do it to show how much they care.

tim_wand

The Poppy is generally regarded as a symbol of Remembrance in Commonwealth Nations. Even if it is associated with one block of Countries and their form of Remembrance , I still don't see how this makes it Political.

A Country or a Group of Countres can have a diverse range of Politics. A Rose is an acceptable symbol to represent the English R.F.U , but has also been adopted at various points by the Labour party. I cannot think of any Political party or System that has ever adopted the Poppy.

I accept its symbolic of the Commonwealths remembrance of their war dead , but it certainly isn't symbolic of anyone's Politics. It neither says , I support war or I don't support war. It just asks that we stop briefly to remember the Sacrifice of others.

navrig2

Given how political FIFA has been over the years when lobbying and interfering with local and national economies with the award of the World Cup this is so hypocritical. Tossers, all of them.

pinno

The FA has plenty of money to pick up the tab of any potential fine. I'm sure other countries respect the fact that for us, the Poppy represents a memorandum of those lost at war. It's not a representation of Victory at war is it?

sungod

tim wand wrote:

The Poppy is generally regarded as a symbol of Remembrance in Commonwealth Nations. Even if it is associated with one block of Countries and their form of Remembrance , I still don't see how this makes it Political.

it's 'political' in the sense of relating to some groups of people and not others, nations are political entities

mr_goo

sungod wrote:

tim wand wrote:

The Poppy is generally regarded as a symbol of Remembrance in Commonwealth Nations. Even if it is associated with one block of Countries and their form of Remembrance , I still don't see how this makes it Political.

it's 'political' in the sense of relating to some groups of people and not others, nations are political entities

Sungod you're ruining my breakfast with your bollox talk. And judging by the strap lines you type up for the daily posts I reckon you are on a by-product of the poppy.
The poppy is not in any shape or form or reasoning a political or pseudo political symbol. It is purely a symbol chosen to remember those who have fallen in conflict.
I just hope that the FA and other home nation associations have the testicular fortitude to stick two fingers up at the tw4ts in Switzerland. Better still wouldn't it be great if England wore a white shirt covered in red poppies like the polka dot jersey.

fat daddy

I think its disgusting ... I for one just cannot remember the fallen if I don't have a Poppy on, its why I forget about them all year and then for a couple of weeks in November I remember them, and not being allowed to remember for 90+ minutes in one of those weeks is criminal

Seriously, its a game, the organisers of the game don't want the players to wear stuff other than their kit, so be it .... what harm does it really do, if its that important to you, then don't play the game, go get a job in Clintons selling cards, ... or are there beliefs not actually that strong ?

pblakeney

The concept of holding International games could be considered more political than a poppy.
International games = Nationalism = division. Just a thought.

sungod

Mr Goo wrote:

sungod wrote:

tim wand wrote:

The Poppy is generally regarded as a symbol of Remembrance in Commonwealth Nations. Even if it is associated with one block of Countries and their form of Remembrance , I still don't see how this makes it Political.

it's 'political' in the sense of relating to some groups of people and not others, nations are political entities

Sungod you're ruining my breakfast with your bollox talk. And judging by the strap lines you type up for the daily posts I reckon you are on a by-product of the poppy.
The poppy is not in any shape or form or reasoning a political or pseudo political symbol. It is purely a symbol chosen to remember those who have fallen in conflict.
I just hope that the FA and other home nation associations have the testicular fortitude to stick two fingers up at the tw4ts in Switzerland. Better still wouldn't it be great if England wore a white shirt covered in red poppies like the polka dot jersey.

if a subset of countries choose a symbol for some purpose, and other countries do not, then that is by definition a political choice

there's nothing wrong with that, it's not a pejorative term, it's simply what the word means

i completely agree that fifa et al. should shove it, though tbh i blame the fa more for even raising the matter in the first place

step83

End of the day people are respecting those who gave their lives. I have never encountered directly an organisation who do not allow people to wear a poppy and I hope never to. What I do take offence to is people claiming its political or trying to use its as a device to incite racial tension/hate.

You look in the news or social media an theres things ranting on about if poppys offend you Jeff off etc, its all different groups stirring their own little pots to get a bit of limelight or cause a scene for what ever reason.

Lets say for example half the population of France was wiped out by something, would Fifa allow the French national team to wear black arm bands, id imagine so. While the wars did not happen in most peoples memory they still had a huge impact changing the course of history, and the death toll from either war was greater than half the population of France.

FishFish

I think that they were right to sanction the use of poppys. It is not a political issue but it was described as one. Everyone agrees that it is a partisan issue - but you cannot really use that word any more than you can use the term sectarian - one word is too imprecise to describe their reason for the ban and English does not have the subtlety to make the explanation uncontentious.. The poppy is for British people to use its symbol as part of a remembrance occasion. Football is for football.

Anonymous

Football is for overpaid premadonnas to dive around and fake injuries while highly paid back office staff and officials pass around brown envelopes, in as much as cycling is for drug taking cheats

Remembrance Sunday is as much about paying tribute to the people who gave their lives as it is to remember the reasons why they died.

Tashman

How did football survive before this mandatory embroidery? It's a game at the end of the day. The players may wear a poppy on their suits before and after, all the fans may also wear them. We are remembering those who made this choice possible, not decreeing that "everyone must"! That's precisely what we fought against

Anonymous

but what about the choice to do it if you wanted?

pinno

In orthodox Muslim traditions, effigy's of anything are not allowed, not even animals - least of all effigy's of Allah. Therefore, those Muslims who get flustered over symbols of what could be interpreted as Allah are over sensitive and we shouldn't be worried about doing things that offend some other race, people's or culture if the symbolism that it represents is benign. That's a cultural relativism.
I could rant about some Hindi symbols that are very reminiscent of the Swastika but that would be disingenuous and the reaction is intolerant in itself. There's a deep hypocrisy there.
The Poppy is a symbolic memorial to lost lives and nothing else. If people want to see it as something else, then they are suffering from an acute case of flawed cultural relativism - in other words, they are not seeing the Poppy as we see it and for what it represents to us.
I would understand if it represented something that was prejudicial in any way.

Tashman

coriordan wrote:

but what about the choice to do it if you wanted?

I agrere, but it seems that more and more that it's an expectation, not a choice. The poppy on football kit is only something from the last 7 or 8 years anyway. I don't ever remember it before.

dinyull

Pinno wrote:

The Poppy is a symbolic memorial to lost lives and nothing else. If people want to see it as something else, then they are suffering from an acute case of flawed cultural relativism - in other words, they are not seeing the Poppy as we see it and for what it represents to us.

It can (and does) represent something different to some other nations though.

For eg. I totally get why James McLean (and a mate) won't wear one and in the international arena it could cause some ill feeling.

dinyull

Tashman wrote:

coriordan wrote:

but what about the choice to do it if you wanted?

I agrere, but it seems that more and more that it's an expectation, not a choice. The poppy on football kit is only something from the last 7 or 8 years anyway. I don't ever remember it before.

It is. It's like everyone has to try and outdo each other nowadays as to who's more patriotic. As already said in this thread, hope it doesn't become like the american flag.

Tashman

With Mrs May and everyone now wading in, it's fast becoming very political indeed!

dinyull

Dear Mr Whelan

I wanted to write to you before talking about this face to face and explain my reasons for not wearing a poppy on my shirt for the game at Bolton.

I have complete respect for those who fought and died in both World Wars - many I know were Irish-born. I have been told that your own Grandfather Paddy Whelan, from Tipperary, was one of those.

I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.

I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this.

But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

For people from the North of Ireland such as myself, and specifically those in Derry, scene of the 1972 Bloody Sunday massacre, the poppy has come to mean something very different. Please understand, Mr Whelan, that when you come from Creggan like myself or the Bogside, Brandywell or the majority of places in Derry, every person still lives in the shadow of one of the darkest days in Ireland’s history – even if like me you were born nearly 20 years after the event. It is just a part of who we are, ingrained into us from birth.

Mr Whelan, for me to wear a poppy would be as much a gesture of disrespect for the innocent people who lost their lives in the Troubles – and Bloody Sunday especially - as I have in the past been accused of disrespecting the victims of WWI and WWII.

It would be seen as an act of disrespect to those people; to my people.

I am not a war monger, or anti-British, or a terrorist or any of the accusations levelled at me in the past. I am a peaceful guy, I believe everyone should live side by side, whatever their religious or political beliefs which I respect and ask for people to respect mine in return. Since last year, I am a father and I want my daughter to grow up in a peaceful world, like any parent.

I am very proud of where I come from and I just cannot do something that I believe is wrong. In life, if you’re a man you should stand up for what you believe in.

I know you may not agree with my feelings but I hope very much that you understand my reasons.

As the owner of the club I am proud to play for, I believe I owe both you and the club’s supporters this explanation.

Yours sincerely,

James McClean

*the post this was related to has been deleted.

Anonymous

yeah sorry dinyull i googled it and read the note.

cycleclinic

of course the poppy is political symbol. It is one though we all buy into so it seem apolitical but it isn't. War is a political act we are remembering those armed service personal who have died in that political act. The civilians who die and there are always civilians who die in war do tend to be forgotten on nov 11th. In one way the service personal chose to join up and those that die out themselves at the disposal of the political masters. The civilians did not they where in the wrong place and the wrong time. I do donate when I see the can rattled but I dont wear the poppy or take on as I dont do symbols in general to show political allengance. I dont wear wrist bands to show I support a particular cause or I have donated. To me this is a private matter. However others feel differently and want to wear it. The footballers who want to should wear it anyway and play (and thumb there nose at FIFA) or not turn up on the pitch. That is a political statement and one I would support. It is all political. I like it when folk thumb there nose at authority.

However saying no political symbols are allowed is itself political so there is a circular logic to FIFA's argument. How come they have not been consumed by there own contradictions already. Or maybe they have and it now FIFA's excrement that is running the show.

tangled_metal

A commonwealth symbol of remembrance for the dead of WWI. If symbolism is OK for one intra-national body why not for another? The commonwealth traditionally had the poppy as a remembrance symbol and that body is quite a large intra-national body. Is the UN more acceptable for symbolism than others?

If the poppy is a political symbol because it's a symbol used by a select number of nations (the commonwealth but possibly.less so these days) then since UN is not all nations then their symbols must surely be political too? So barca should not be allowed to wear them. One rule for all.

BTW don't all football teams have symbolism on their shirts that separate their group from others? Is that political too? The st David's cross is a religious symbol too IIRC. Does FIFA have a view on religious symbols? St George's cross is also of religious origin and is used on English flag and Georgia flag too.

It's all an annual pettiness and drags us all down to the lowest common denominator. If you ask me I'd say a printed poppy armband offered to the players by a rich third party. The players then choose of their own free will to wear one or not. If FIFA decides to act on it then there's enough money to pay the fines. Whether that's the players or FA. I doubt FIFA would take action when it's a free will decision of individual players. I reckon they're only bothered by it being a national/team decision to wear the symbol.

BTW I've not worn one since a boy scout marching through my old village to the remembrance Sunday service. The scouts being linked to the CofE meant I had to turn out in uniform (neatly pressed and fit for parade) complete with poppy. In the fact if you didn't have one the leaders gave you one. I objected to the wasted Sunday more than the poppy.

Of course part of my reason for not wearing one is it's become almost a regulatory item to wear in some circles. It's not even important for remembrance. You can do that without. It's a money earner for the royal British legion. A worthwhile charity helping.veterans of conflicts and their families. I'd be happy to see the poppy replaced with people making the same donation without it being a purchase of a nearly obligatory symbol. If you want to.help veterans donate real money and leave tree poppy in the tray.

BTW there is a completely and undeniably political poppy symbol IMHO. That's the white poppy brought out to symbolize pacifism and anti-war. I bet Corbyn has one.

chris_bass

Tashman wrote:

I don't ever remember it before.

that's quite ironic