shane sutton - hardman or heinous? independent review

philbar72

Pross wrote:

One thing that has been overlooked in all this is that Varnish gave an interview, after the failure to qualify a team for the Olympic team sprint, effectively criticising her employer. If I did that in my job I suspect I'd be at risk of dismissal for gross misconduct. It sounds like things were already strained even before the incident in question.

fundamentally it also sounds like she wasn't up to the job. good but not good enough perhaps, or out of form? to go to the press was a little odd perhaps.

top_bhoy

lostboysaint wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Is the person saying Saddles knows no more than the rest of us the same person who mocked Pokerface for having a top of the range TT bike?

Why ask the question when it's an easy one for you to definitively prove; post the link to the persons post.

Richmond Racer 2

Top_Bhoy wrote:

lostboysaint wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Is the person saying Saddles knows no more than the rest of us the same person who mocked Pokerface for having a top of the range TT bike?

Why ask the question when it's an easy one for you to definitively prove; post the link to the persons post.

S'ok, we're having our fun anyway

carbonclem

philbar72 wrote:

fundamentally it also sounds like she wasn't up to the job. good but not good enough perhaps, or out of form? to go to the press was a little odd perhaps.

It must be tough, for a female track rider to be dropped from the GB programme is game over with no return really. I can see that she'd take whatever it took to be heard.

I find some of the quotes from SS hard to really analyse out of context, certainly the Varnish comments could be acceptable if they usually conversed in such a way which was accepted by them both, but are unacceptable out of the blue ... and thats the thing, I thought most claims of harrasment would have to show some history of continued behaviour and usually with some sort of complaint being lodged or recorded along the way. To lodge a complaint triggered by being released would appear to be reactionary. It would be interesting to see more detail.

andrewjoseph

Cook and Pendleton have both said that Sutton was horrible to them, BC didn't help then either.

r0bh

andrewjoseph wrote:

Cook and Pendleton have both said that Sutton was horrible to them, BC didn't help then either.

Sutton has already responded to what Cooke and Pendleton wrote in their books in this Cycling podcast interview.

http://thecyclingpodcast.com/podcast/th ... -interview

Two sides to every story, believe whichever one you prefer I guess.

PuttyKnees

Blazing Saddles wrote:

How many folks on here actually know both parties, I wonder?
Amazing how folks can form such definitive opinions based upon half a story.

I've heard both sides (obviously not first hand, but from sources I trust) and the versions are totally irreconcilable. I think that there was a taste of it in the podcast quoted above - if he chose, he was utterly loyal / totally invested, but I really would not want to be one of those who he saw as flawed. He reminds me of Shankly. A lot of BC is like that though.

I once worked for someone like SS - he was great for people who he viewed as his guys. This meant rolling me over on a couple of occasions as I wasn't part of his 'my man team' and I left. Sadly the press weren't interested so I had to make do with writing a nasty poem about him. It was cathartic though - totally recommend it.

blazing_saddles

Haven't listened to the podcast, so sorry if this replicates, but Shane on the fat arse comment and how come the verdict:-

http://www.skysports.com/cycling/news/2 ... -on-family

ddraver

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

My view - as someone who doesn't do the racing scene ...

Before becoming basically the top bod in BC - SS could work the way he works (very well) and nobody would bother too much as he wasn't "the one" - firing was probably done by someone else - or at least in conjuction with someone else with SS taking a suporting role - thus the "you've got a fat ars*, go and have a baby" (paraphrased) would never have taken place.
But once he became tech director - one up from Head Coach - he was "the one" - it was his voice - he was where the buck stopped as far as the athletes and their performance was concerned.
He/they may well have been justified in dropping Varnish - but it wasn't handled correctly - I've said before that different people need handling different ways - telling Wiggo and Cav to get a bluddy move on may well work - for them - but not for others.
BC invest a lot of time, effort and money in the athletes - the athletes contribution is their life - the least BC should do is spend a bit of time and effort to let them go as gently as possible - perhaps they usually do, but there seem to be quite a few disgruntled ex-BC athletes out there ...

As someone who doesn't know any better, and not having any inside knowledge, this is spot on as how it looks to me. The bit in bold is especially pertinent.

I think you re right...

BC has been set up and run as an extreme version of a totally performance orientated program. There is no run for "frivolous" things like emotions in there just numbers and gold medals. This makes it a very harsh environment but one that works for those that can fit in it (Hoy, Kenny, Trott etc all of who seem very well adjusted). However there are plenty of talented people for who it doesnt work (Nicole Cooke being the obvious one but to lesser extents Armitstead, the early years of Cav, Dan Martin, the Yates's etc. Psychologically, it seems to have been the worst possible place for Vicky P). Shane was the epitomy of this

There are those (Chris Garrison) who think it should be an all inclusive hippy camp where the realities of talent play no part but this is somewhat unrealisitc and runs counter to what, as far as I can recall, every gold medal winning cyclist at Rio says given that they all sang Sutton's praises to the rafters.

It's a difficult one, there's not really a right or wrong answer...

awavey

ddraver wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

My view - as someone who doesn't do the racing scene ...

Before becoming basically the top bod in BC - SS could work the way he works (very well) and nobody would bother too much as he wasn't "the one" - firing was probably done by someone else - or at least in conjuction with someone else with SS taking a suporting role - thus the "you've got a fat ars*, go and have a baby" (paraphrased) would never have taken place.
But once he became tech director - one up from Head Coach - he was "the one" - it was his voice - he was where the buck stopped as far as the athletes and their performance was concerned.
He/they may well have been justified in dropping Varnish - but it wasn't handled correctly - I've said before that different people need handling different ways - telling Wiggo and Cav to get a bluddy move on may well work - for them - but not for others.
BC invest a lot of time, effort and money in the athletes - the athletes contribution is their life - the least BC should do is spend a bit of time and effort to let them go as gently as possible - perhaps they usually do, but there seem to be quite a few disgruntled ex-BC athletes out there ...

As someone who doesn't know any better, and not having any inside knowledge, this is spot on as how it looks to me. The bit in bold is especially pertinent.

I think you re right...

BC has been set up and run as an extreme version of a totally performance orientated program. There is no run for "frivolous" things like emotions in there just numbers and gold medals. This makes it a very harsh environment but one that works for those that can fit in it (Hoy, Kenny, Trott etc all of who seem very well adjusted). However there are plenty of talented people for who it doesnt work (Nicole Cooke being the obvious one but to lesser extents Armitstead, the early years of Cav, Dan Martin, the Yates's etc. Psychologically, it seems to have been the worst possible place for Vicky P). Shane was the epitomy of this

There are those (Chris Garrison) who think it should be an all inclusive hippy camp where the realities of talent play no part but this is somewhat unrealisitc and runs counter to what, as far as I can recall, every gold medal winning cyclist at Rio says given that they all sang Sutton's praises to the rafters.

It's a difficult one, there's not really a right or wrong answer...

is it cause or is it effect though? , Ive always believed good people or talent management if you like, is about tailoring your approach and understanding how people really tick because we are all different even if we share similar goals,and if you dont understand that element of people or have not got the capability to emphasise with them on that level, actually you arent a very good coach at all, maybe you are just a lucky coach with an exceptional bunch of people around you who deliver inspite of you because they just ignore you and tell you too get lost in those little sweary banter games you have with them, and they are that good at what they do they can deliver when it matters most, maybe they even believe you are helping them at some level.

but would Shane Sutton make a good England football manager, would he make a good football manager full stop, I genuinely doubt it as he'd lose half the dressing room after the first game lost.

its not about running a "hippy camp", its understanding that shouting at people and making them feel like **** doesnt work as a motivational tool.

Wheelspinner

awavey wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

My view - as someone who doesn't do the racing scene ...

Before becoming basically the top bod in BC - SS could work the way he works (very well) and nobody would bother too much as he wasn't "the one" - firing was probably done by someone else - or at least in conjuction with someone else with SS taking a suporting role - thus the "you've got a fat ars*, go and have a baby" (paraphrased) would never have taken place.
But once he became tech director - one up from Head Coach - he was "the one" - it was his voice - he was where the buck stopped as far as the athletes and their performance was concerned.
He/they may well have been justified in dropping Varnish - but it wasn't handled correctly - I've said before that different people need handling different ways - telling Wiggo and Cav to get a bluddy move on may well work - for them - but not for others.
BC invest a lot of time, effort and money in the athletes - the athletes contribution is their life - the least BC should do is spend a bit of time and effort to let them go as gently as possible - perhaps they usually do, but there seem to be quite a few disgruntled ex-BC athletes out there ...

As someone who doesn't know any better, and not having any inside knowledge, this is spot on as how it looks to me. The bit in bold is especially pertinent.

I think you re right...

BC has been set up and run as an extreme version of a totally performance orientated program. There is no run for "frivolous" things like emotions in there just numbers and gold medals. This makes it a very harsh environment but one that works for those that can fit in it (Hoy, Kenny, Trott etc all of who seem very well adjusted). However there are plenty of talented people for who it doesnt work (Nicole Cooke being the obvious one but to lesser extents Armitstead, the early years of Cav, Dan Martin, the Yates's etc. Psychologically, it seems to have been the worst possible place for Vicky P). Shane was the epitomy of this

There are those (Chris Garrison) who think it should be an all inclusive hippy camp where the realities of talent play no part but this is somewhat unrealisitc and runs counter to what, as far as I can recall, every gold medal winning cyclist at Rio says given that they all sang Sutton's praises to the rafters.

It's a difficult one, there's not really a right or wrong answer...

is it cause or is it effect though? , Ive always believed good people or talent management if you like, is about tailoring your approach and understanding how people really tick because we are all different even if we share similar goals,and if you dont understand that element of people or have not got the capability to emphasise with them on that level, actually you arent a very good coach at all, maybe you are just a lucky coach with an exceptional bunch of people around you who deliver inspite of you because they just ignore you and tell you too get lost in those little sweary banter games you have with them, and they are that good at what they do they can deliver when it matters most, maybe they even believe you are helping them at some level.

but would Shane Sutton make a good England football manager, would he make a good football manager full stop, I genuinely doubt it as he'd lose half the dressing room after the first game lost.

its not about running a "hippy camp", its understanding that shouting at people and making them feel like **** doesnt work as a motivational tool.

Hadn't read anywhere that Sutton's MO was to shout at his charges and make them feel like whatever too, just that he'd allegedly told at least one of them she was overweight, and made some inappropriate references to the disabled athletes. Didn't say anywhere he'd screamed the abuse at them though, but apparently he was. Or are you just making that bit up for dramatic effect based on your opinion of what he might be like if you ever met him?

Richmond Racer 2

^some or other poster somewhere in this thread made some reference to film of Sutton 'shouting abuse out of the car'
at Wiggins riding up a mountain in Mallorca


An alternative reality, I'm afraid. The footage the poster is referring to is from 'A Year in Yellow' which shows Sutton "looking like a pizza delivery boy" (Wiggins, on a scooter as he climbs, calling such horrifically abusive terms as '"come on son, keep pushing"

salsiccia1

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

^some or other poster somewhere in this thread made some reference to film of Sutton 'shouting abuse out of the car'
at Wiggins riding up a mountain in Mallorca


An alternative reality, I'm afraid. The footage the poster is referring to is from 'A Year in Yellow' which shows Sutton "looking like a pizza delivery boy" (Wiggins, on a scooter as he climbs, calling such horrifically abusive terms as '"come on son, keep pushing"

Toned down for the camera, I expect

Richmond Racer 2

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

^some or other poster somewhere in this thread made some reference to film of Sutton 'shouting abuse out of the car'
at Wiggins riding up a mountain in Mallorca


An alternative reality, I'm afraid. The footage the poster is referring to is from 'A Year in Yellow' which shows Sutton "looking like a pizza delivery boy" (Wiggins, on a scooter as he climbs, calling such horrifically abusive terms as '"come on son, keep pushing"

Toned down for the camera, I expect

But the poster knew better BECAUSE HE WAS THERE, ROADSIDE, LIKE

DeVlaeminck

Yes but maybe Wiggins likes that kind of motivation - I used to play football at centre half with a guy who would slaughter anyone on the team who made a mistake - I loved it as it pushed me on but some players hated him and went to pieces. What is blunt speaking for some is considered personal abuse for others - and sometimes how it is taken depends on whether things are going well or going to pot.

Wheelspinner makes a fair point - we don't know how Sutton is with all athletes - maybe he does tailor his approach. We do know his style doesn't suit everyone but then even the likes of Brian Clough and Ferguson didn't get the best out of absolutely everyone - it would be a rare coach that had a style the suited everyone.

Richmond Racer 2

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Yes but maybe Wiggins likes that kind of motivation - I used to play football at centre half with a guy who would slaughter anyone on the team who made a mistake - I loved it as it pushed me on but some players hated him and went to pieces. What is blunt speaking for some is considered personal abuse for others - and sometimes how it is taken depends on whether things are going well or going to pot.

Wheelspinner makes a fair point - we don't know how Sutton is with all athletes - maybe he does tailor his approach. We do know his style doesn't suit everyone but then even the likes of Brian Clough and Ferguson didn't get the best out of absolutely everyone - it would be a rare coach that had a style the suited everyone.

True. Also remember Hoy telling the story of early 2012 when he was up against Kenny for the single GB Keirin spot at the Olympics. He wasnt hitting the numbers, he was letting himself get too distracted with personal commitments eg personal sponsors, coming in late for training and so on. Sutton (with Brailsford - but mainly Sutton as Brailsford was known for wimping out of the hard stuff and letting Sutton do it) told him bluntly that if he didn't get his act together, Kenny would be getting the Kierin spot. Hoy got his act together, cut down the distractions...and the rest is history.

graeme_s-2

I always got the impression with Wiggins that sometimes he needed an almighty boot up the arse and sometimes he needed a cuddle and to be told what a special little soldier he is. Sutton and also Sean Yates seemed to understand exactly when to apply which technique and were able to get the best out of him.

bigmat

Regardless of whether you like the idea of Sutton's approach to coaching, you can't seriously suggest his methods weren't effective? Its a results based business people, his results are up there with anything in the history of the sport.

jscl

Heard today that Gary Hall is favoured by UK Sport for the role.

RichN95.

JSCL wrote:

Heard today that Gary Hall is favoured by UK Sport for the role.

Google isn't helping me on that one. (Assuming it's not the American former freestyle swimmer)

jscl

RichN95 wrote:

JSCL wrote:

Heard today that Gary Hall is favoured by UK Sport for the role.

Google isn't helping me on that one. (Assuming it's not the American former freestyle swimmer)

Definitely not a former freestyle swimmer!

http://www.gbtaekwondo.co.uk/about-us/board/gary-hall/

RichN95.

JSCL wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

JSCL wrote:

Heard today that Gary Hall is favoured by UK Sport for the role.

Google isn't helping me on that one. (Assuming it's not the American former freestyle swimmer)

Definitely not a former freestyle swimmer!

http://www.gbtaekwondo.co.uk/about-us/board/gary-hall/

Does he know anything about cycling? I would have thought that some sort of background in the sport would be a pre-requisite to be performance director.

jscl

RichN95 wrote:

JSCL wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

JSCL wrote:

Heard today that Gary Hall is favoured by UK Sport for the role.

Google isn't helping me on that one. (Assuming it's not the American former freestyle swimmer)

Definitely not a former freestyle swimmer!

http://www.gbtaekwondo.co.uk/about-us/board/gary-hall/

Does he know anything about cycling? I would have thought that some sort of background in the sport would be a pre-requisite to be performance director.

I honestly don't know, I didn't hear it from anyone in cycling earlier.

His son is a physio and was doing my massage earlier. He was saying how UK Sport had been pushing him to apply for the role.

Crozza

RichN95 wrote:

JSCL wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

JSCL wrote:

Heard today that Gary Hall is favoured by UK Sport for the role.

Google isn't helping me on that one. (Assuming it's not the American former freestyle swimmer)

Definitely not a former freestyle swimmer!

http://www.gbtaekwondo.co.uk/about-us/board/gary-hall/

Does he know anything about cycling? I would have thought that some sort of background in the sport would be a pre-requisite to be performance director.

BC wanted a proper, uncompromising hardman this time around

but to answer your question, Tim Kerrison at Sky? Clive Woodward at Southamp...oh never mind

dish_dash

Feature in the FT on BC https://www.ft.com/content/7890fdf0-ac5 ... 8207902122

I had no idea about the "Readiness Index"

The organisation is dedicated to doing an ever-better job at generating winners. Over the past two years, it has developed a new data-driven system, known internally as the “Readiness Index” (RI), that aims to reveal if a rider is on track for Olympic glory. Andy Harrison is British Cycling’s programmes director and interim head: an intense man who rarely blinks behind thick-rimmed glasses, he speaks in numbers and management jargon. A nation can win a maximum of 34 cycling medals at a Games, he says. It may be impossible to win the lot but the RI is an attempt to get closer. “This is not marginal gains,” he insists. “This is new. This is how we get a dynasty.”

Also, "Reports suggest Sara Symington, a former cyclist and head of England Netball, is frontrunner to become the new performance director."

rick_chasey

Grim isn't it?

I could just about get on board with the Frankenstein science of blood, bone and muscle, but christ.

Most people want to get away from that sh!t when they watch sport.

philbar72

agreed, but top level athletes will for the most part get that way of thinking and get cracking. they aren't like us...

dish_dash

Especially if they are millennials apparently... another quote from the piece:

British Cycling employs 28 coaches, 20 of whom are dedicated to younger “pathway” riders. They feed the index by creating in-depth profiles of each cyclist, logging physiological changes, such as improvements in strength; performance indicators, such as increases in speed and finish times; and qualities that are harder to quantify, like whether riders show “grit”, “relish a battle” and “bounce back after setbacks”. This information produces a “playbook” for riders; specific targets to hit from pedalling power to muscle size.

Every three months, British Cycling assesses each rider. Anyone not en route to a medal faces being cut. Yates says the data don’t just act as a selection tool but also as a motivational device. “Millennials crave a lot more buy-in,” says Yates. “If you go back 10 or 12 years, that cohort of young people were quite happy to be told what to do and would do it. And now, they ask, ‘Why do I need to do this?’” The organisation has gathered the answers to these questions. Or as Truman says, he knows the process to getting faster.

But I wonder how much of the process outlined was followed in relation to Jess Varnish and being dropped...

rick_chasey

Nowadays if you want the chance to succeed you must succumb to Orwellian type surveillance.

Eugh.

dish_dash

Chasey, it's the only way we can have faith in you...