shane sutton - hardman or heinous? independent review

blazing_saddles

Pinno wrote:

Pinno wrote:

So I am glad Specialgueststar dropped him. Hope you gave him a sarcastic pat on the back when you passed him.

I take what SpecialGuestStar says as true.

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

These things never happened did they. FFS.

What gives?

How many folks on here actually know both parties, I wonder?
Amazing how folks can form such definitive opinions based upon half a story.

pinno

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Amazing how folks can form such definitive opinions based upon half a story.

You can't point your finger on anything I said which could be construed as 'definitive':

Pinno wrote:

I have no idea what he's like as a coach...

Rodrego Hernandez

Pinno wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Met him once at (I think) the Lewes Crit - early 90's.

I was there as a spectator.

Pinno wrote:

I remember him leaning out of a window of a car and shouting profanities at Wiggo going up a hill in Majorca in the heat, at altitude.

Footage from a documentary about SKY - I can find the clip if you want me to.

Pinno wrote:

So I am glad Specialgueststar dropped him. Hope you gave him a sarcastic pat on the back when you passed him.

I take what SpecialGuestStar says as true.

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

These things never happened did they. FFS.

What gives?

So you haven't really met him. Specialgueststar rode past him on a bike ride once. Unless it was in a race, in which case I'd be interested to know which race ;-)

Please enlighten us all to the secret part of Majorca that is at high altitude.

According to amongst others, Brad, Hoy, Cav, Trott, he is a great coach and his results speak for themselves. As for the enquiry. The fact that very few BC staff have been interviewed in very interesting.

specialgueststar

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

Specialgueststar rode past him on a bike ride once. Unless it was in a race, in which case I'd be interested to know which race ;-)

every ride out of Manchester at that time was a race

frisbee

I have the feeling that we may not win so many medals in Japan but the vegetarian basket weaving skills of our track cyclists will be the best in the world.

salsiccia1

frisbee wrote:

I have the feeling that we may not win so many medals in Japan but the vegetarian basket weaving skills of our track cyclists will be the best in the world.

It's political correctness gone mad. If you can't tell a bird with a fat ar5e to pack it in and go and have babies, what's the world coming too?

specialgueststar

Salsiccia1 wrote:

frisbee wrote:

I have the feeling that we may not win so many medals in Japan but the vegetarian basket weaving skills of our track cyclists will be the best in the world.

It's political correctness gone mad. If you can't tell a bird with a fat ar5e to pack it in and go and have babies, what's the world coming too?

PuttyKnees

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99s19HBs-6A

Pross

I still find it hard to believe that Sutton suddenly turned up at work one day talking like he'd learned English from watching Jim Davidson and Bernard Manning DVDs and that day coincided with Varnish getting kicked off the team. She will have regularly seen him in action talking like that to her or others but for some reason never took offence or at least not to the extent of reporting it. I'm not defending Sutton who, like him or not, is like a cycling version of Gene Hunt but everyone at BC will have known what he was like and obviously took the view that it was OK if you get results. He's not the only one on the coaching staff there who talks like that from what I've heard,

It'll be interesting to see if BC open the door for Jess to return or whether they agreed with Sutton's position if not his way of expressing it.

DeVlaeminck

Would you report someone who has the power to end your career ? If what you've heard that he was not the only one there who acted like that is true then it's a good thing he's gone - it'll give a message to the others that it's not acceptable.

Pross

Yes I would (and have done, it was in relation to the way a more senior colleague was talking to another colleague). They got disciplined and it was done anonymously although I'd have done it anyway. It's the reason why companies have whistle blowing procedures. If Varnish had concerns prior to this particular incident she should have been able to report it without concerns of the impact. Therefore I would suggest either BC's whistleblowing procedures are inadequate or there was no concern up until that day although I do accept that in an environment such as sport or entertainment it would be easier for someone to find a reason to dismiss a 'trouble maker'.

DeVlaeminck

Bit different in that I'm guessing you don't work in an industry where there is basically one employer and the person you are reporting is credited by some with being instrumental in the success of that employer.

Pross

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Bit different in that I'm guessing you don't work in an industry where there is basically one employer and the person you are reporting is credited by some with being instrumental in the success of that employer.

I think I acknowledged that in my final sentence although it shouldn't be, there should be a clear process where any member of staff can have the confidence to report their concerns.

Lanterne_Rogue

I guess there's an interesting wrinkle here in that although BC can rule that Sutton's language wasn't acceptable, there isn't a range of options open to them in terms of how they deal with that - he's already resigned. That automatically rules out an approach that bears in mind the facts of the case and the possible motives of Varnish in reporting it to the media, which would probably be some sort of warning rather than a dismissal.

I also agree with Pross that BC's processes were seemingly inadequate to nip this sort of stuff in the bud - and certainly before it resulted in an athlete being able to tell the papers that she was told to eff off and have a baby and to then be subsequently backed up by the inevitable investigation. It's much easier to deal with it by challenging it immediately than hoping it doesn't get any more toxic.

tangled_metal

I reported a senior boss where I worked once. The hint add to what happened is in the word "worked", I got a complete assassination of my performance and totally fooked over. I don't work there now.

Autocratic bosses with a very old school attitude are not easy to report when their behaviour warrants it. You really have to be prepared to find new employment quickly if it goes pear shaped. That's harder to do when your employer is the national sporting body for your sport. It's not like you're going to suddenly find yourself offered a position with Australian cycling team or representing USA.

What's happening btw? Has the investigation finished? Have they reported their findings publicly yet?

Lanterne_Rogue

Tangled Metal wrote:

I reported a senior boss where I worked once. The hint add to what happened is in the word "worked", I got a complete assassination of my performance and totally fooked over. I don't work there now.

I got more or less the same treatment for pointing out that a much-vaunted plan for remodelling an entire factory process contained the seeds of its own destruction, albeit undiplomatically:

"Where does all the stuff we make that's actively lethal go?"
"We're not going to make stuff that's actively lethal."
"Yes, fine. But of the stuff that we're not going to make that's actively lethal, where the heck are we putting it that won't cause everything to grind to a halt within first week?"

It didn't much salve the wounds to later learn that he was sacked when the entire factory had ground to a halt, but only because they managed to limp on for two days longer than I'd forecast. I laughed like a loon though.

It does rather puncture the idea that BC do better than everyone else because they look at all the small things a little bit more - this feels like smaller tensions, rumours and behaviours being allowed to accumulate without a decent control in place. Losing your chief just before the Olympics isn't very marginal gains.

Pross

One thing that has been overlooked in all this is that Varnish gave an interview, after the failure to qualify a team for the Olympic team sprint, effectively criticising her employer. If I did that in my job I suspect I'd be at risk of dismissal for gross misconduct. It sounds like things were already strained even before the incident in question.

Vino'sGhost

The guy might know a thing or two but he's offensive and a dinosaur.

fuck him off he's old and foreign.

NB this offensive comment is typical of him

blazing_saddles

Vino'sGhost wrote:

The guy might know a thing or two but he's offensive and a dinosaur.

fark him off he's old and foreign.

NB this offensive comment is typical of him

Talking of offensive, you might appear less of a hypocrite if your next 2 post in other threads didn't read:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

there are some massive bell ends in here

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Id not bother commenting to this but for fun I think Ill point out that you are a fuckwit

Richmond Racer 2

^And, it appears, a Kipper

So that's nice

jscl

Saddles, not worth your time and effort. Let them vent.

top_bhoy

Vino'sGhost wrote:

there are some massive bell ends in here

Any relation to this character? :P

bobmcstuff

One of the reasons I like this particular bike forum is that there's a few people on here who actually know riders and teams etc. so I'd rather keep it that way...

Obviously that does lead to some things being a bit more sensitive than they might otherwise be and is possibly one of the reasons other bits of the forum call it po face...

slowbike

My view - as someone who doesn't do the racing scene ...

Before becoming basically the top bod in BC - SS could work the way he works (very well) and nobody would bother too much as he wasn't "the one" - firing was probably done by someone else - or at least in conjuction with someone else with SS taking a suporting role - thus the "you've got a fat arse, go and have a baby" (paraphrased) would never have taken place.
But once he became tech director - one up from Head Coach - he was "the one" - it was his voice - he was where the buck stopped as far as the athletes and their performance was concerned.
He/they may well have been justified in dropping Varnish - but it wasn't handled correctly - I've said before that different people need handling different ways - telling Wiggo and Cav to get a bluddy move on may well work - for them - but not for others.
BC invest a lot of time, effort and money in the athletes - the athletes contribution is their life - the least BC should do is spend a bit of time and effort to let them go as gently as possible - perhaps they usually do, but there seem to be quite a few disgruntled ex-BC athletes out there ...

salsiccia1

Slowbike wrote:

My view - as someone who doesn't do the racing scene ...

Before becoming basically the top bod in BC - SS could work the way he works (very well) and nobody would bother too much as he wasn't "the one" - firing was probably done by someone else - or at least in conjuction with someone else with SS taking a suporting role - thus the "you've got a fat ars*, go and have a baby" (paraphrased) would never have taken place.
But once he became tech director - one up from Head Coach - he was "the one" - it was his voice - he was where the buck stopped as far as the athletes and their performance was concerned.
He/they may well have been justified in dropping Varnish - but it wasn't handled correctly - I've said before that different people need handling different ways - telling Wiggo and Cav to get a bluddy move on may well work - for them - but not for others.
BC invest a lot of time, effort and money in the athletes - the athletes contribution is their life - the least BC should do is spend a bit of time and effort to let them go as gently as possible - perhaps they usually do, but there seem to be quite a few disgruntled ex-BC athletes out there ...

As someone who doesn't know any better, and not having any inside knowledge, this is spot on as how it looks to me. The bit in bold is especially pertinent.

RichN95.

Is the person saying Saddles knows no more than the rest of us the same person who mocked Pokerface for having a top of the range TT bike?

lostboysaint

RichN95 wrote:

Is the person saying Saddles knows no more than the rest of us the same person who mocked Pokerface for having a top of the range TT bike?

Richmond Racer 2

RichN95 wrote:

Is the person saying Saddles knows no more than the rest of us the same person who mocked Pokerface for having a top of the range TT bike?

Awks.

mididoctors

Its a cultural thing I guess. Political correctness does spark debate. I wonder how much success he has inadvertently generated by being an a55...

I mean some sports women may have been spurred on by an "I'll Bl00dy show him" response to his unreconstructed aussie blokeyness OTOH if it creates more failure than success then its time to put that style of behaviour to bed in the past. just from a practical results point of view

I don't feel that much sympathy for him thou tend to share the notion this should have been sorted out by peer pressure within the training community...thou clearly that did not happen which suggests to me these things do often need a break in continuity before anything changes.

slowbike

mididoctors wrote:

I mean some sports women may have been spurred on by an "I'll Bl00dy show him" response to his unreconstructed aussie blokeyness OTOH if it creates more failure than success then its time to put that style of behaviour to bed in the past. just from a practical results point of view

My wife is one of those who will achieve something just because someone says she can't - I think she responds to that better than positive coaching - providing it doesn't come from me - but she wouldn't take negative personal comments well either - and neither should she.