VAM, weight, power
Comments
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PTestTeam wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:On a long climb (> 30 minutes) my VAM is 950 mt/h, pretty reproducible figure day in day out. If I wanted to get to 1000 mt/h a calculator tells me that I either increase my power by about 15 Watt or I lose 4 Kg. I know how to lose 4 Kg, which is doable and an option, but how would I go about increasing my aerobic power by 15 Watt? Is 15 Watt a little or a lot to "put up"?
Simple answer. Get a coach
There is always a throw money at the problem approach, but it's not the approach I am going to takeleft the forum March 20230 -
Boring as they are, I find that turbo trainers help with power. If you can endure 30 mins, or even a hour, of spinning a low gear to a decent wattage to a level where the pain/discomfort takes you away from the boredom of it, then doing it on the road becomes almost easy in comparison.
As well as the obvious CV benefits, it's also very good for motor unit recruitment, and deft pedaling form .0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Makes sense... will probably go for a cheaper book though... that "fast after 50" looks inviting, although I am only 44, so I would get an edge start, for a change!
This might help you with working out how to balance low intensity endurance training with high intensity interval type training. 80:20 seems to be the appropriate ratio
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... e_Athletes
But you'll have to do a lot of endurance riding0 -
Yeah, getting random generic advice of variable quality from the interwebs is a much more value for money approach.ugo.santalucia wrote:PTestTeam wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:On a long climb (> 30 minutes) my VAM is 950 mt/h, pretty reproducible figure day in day out. If I wanted to get to 1000 mt/h a calculator tells me that I either increase my power by about 15 Watt or I lose 4 Kg. I know how to lose 4 Kg, which is doable and an option, but how would I go about increasing my aerobic power by 15 Watt? Is 15 Watt a little or a lot to "put up"?
Simple answer. Get a coach
There is always a throw money at the problem approach, but it's not the approach I am going to take
It's not complicated, but then if it were simple you wouldn't be here asking, you'd have done it by now.
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Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Yeah, getting random generic advice of variable quality from the interwebs is a much more value for money approach.ugo.santalucia wrote:PTestTeam wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:On a long climb (> 30 minutes) my VAM is 950 mt/h, pretty reproducible figure day in day out. If I wanted to get to 1000 mt/h a calculator tells me that I either increase my power by about 15 Watt or I lose 4 Kg. I know how to lose 4 Kg, which is doable and an option, but how would I go about increasing my aerobic power by 15 Watt? Is 15 Watt a little or a lot to "put up"?
Simple answer. Get a coach
There is always a throw money at the problem approach, but it's not the approach I am going to take
It's not complicated, but then if it were simple you wouldn't be here asking, you'd have done it by now.
Exactly0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:PTestTeam wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:On a long climb (> 30 minutes) my VAM is 950 mt/h, pretty reproducible figure day in day out. If I wanted to get to 1000 mt/h a calculator tells me that I either increase my power by about 15 Watt or I lose 4 Kg. I know how to lose 4 Kg, which is doable and an option, but how would I go about increasing my aerobic power by 15 Watt? Is 15 Watt a little or a lot to "put up"?
Simple answer. Get a coach
There is always a throw money at the problem approach, but it's not the approach I am going to take
Well be prepared to get frustrated then.
Me, I'd sooner 'throw money' at a specialist who knows what they're doing and therefore leaves me extra time to get some quality, structured and targeted training done.0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Yeah, getting random generic advice of variable quality from the interwebs is a much more value for money approach.
It's not complicated, but then if it were simple you wouldn't be here asking, you'd have done it by now.
I am sure you are value for money, but I don't have money to invest in a coach, a power meter, power cranks or anything of the likes.
Random generic advice will do for me... I don't have a race to win, if it doesn't work it's not the end of the world... left the forum March 20230 -
PTestTeam wrote:Well be prepared to get frustrated then.
Or, do your own research. Another really good article:
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... e_Training
The pointers in this scientific publication seem to me to be enough to get anyone well on the way to being able to design their own effective training program.
He would be well advised to get a powermeter though!0 -
robbo2011 wrote:
He would be well advised to get a powermeter though!
A powermeter would be nice, especially the cranks, but realistically out of any budget... 500 quid for stages + the cost a computer with bluetooth... not for me... I'll have to estimate from climbing timesleft the forum March 20230 -
At least get a cheap hr monitor so that you can work out approximate training zones. That should get you close enough.
And read the article....0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:On a long climb (> 30 minutes) my VAM is 950 mt/h, pretty reproducible figure day in day out. If I wanted to get to 1000 mt/h a calculator tells me that I either increase my power by about 15 Watt or I lose 4 Kg. I know how to lose 4 Kg, which is doable and an option, but how would I go about increasing my aerobic power by 15 Watt? Is 15 Watt a little or a lot to "put up"?
I'm climbing at about the same as you this year. The last couple of season I finished the summers at around 1050 mt/h over 1 hour of climbing just by riding - which meant slightly less weight and more power. So I don't think it is a big ask.
This year I've been working.... and I'm older.BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
Instagramme0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:robbo2011 wrote:
He would be well advised to get a powermeter though!
A powermeter would be nice, especially the cranks, but realistically out of any budget... 500 quid for stages + the cost a computer with bluetooth... not for me... I'll have to estimate from climbing times
How are you measuring climbing times and VAM?! With a stop watch? Ride with a tailwind. Faster times right there.0 -
AK_jnr wrote:
How are you measuring climbing times and VAM?! With a stop watch?
yes, is it a funny thing to do? :roll:left the forum March 20230 -
I've no desire to suggest anyone spend money they don't have. Just pointing out that (good) coaching is not is not simply a case of "throwing money at it".
It's a choice to invest into accessing the knowledge and experience of a professional that can hasten the development curve as well as help shorten the learning curve. That's also possible with sufficient investment of time on the part of the individual but bear in mind that a coach has a vastly accelerated learning and often a greater bank of understanding since they have experience gained by working with hundreds of individuals, rather than just one (and all the personal bias that goes with that).
That said, self coaching is fine and it's fun to experiment and try new things, ideas and thoughts on how to train. Best of luck with it all. There are only a handful of fundamental principles one needs to understand. It's how to apply them where the detailed devil starts to make an appearance.0 -
On the issue of power meters... it's incredible how we perceive the value of electronics... take the powertap for instance: a cheap Novatec hub with a strain gauge taped to the axle (literally, with electrician tape), someone spent maybe half an hour calibrating it... a similar hub without the strain gauge would retail for 60 pounds, with the strain gauge and calibration it becomes 600. The strain gauge has hardly any retail value... I can check the RS catalogue, but we are talking 1 pound, maybe?
The stages is even worse, as you don't even have the hub... so it's a plastic box that fits on a crank with a strain gauge
They both also have some form of transmitter, which again will probably be a pound or so.
At least with SRM you get a crankset, which has some intrinsic value, although nowhere near the retail price of this stuff...
I begin to see why electronics make money and mechanical components don't and why Shimano & Co. desperately want to go that route. We seem to be more "connable" when it comes to a piece of kit that gives out some information.left the forum March 20230 -
You vastly underestimate the value add. It's often got little to do with the material cost of components.
Since you think it's so easy to do it so cheaply, why don't you make one and sell them? You'll make a fortune.0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:You vastly underestimate the value add. It's often got little to do with the material cost of components.
Since you think it's so easy to do it so cheaply, why don't you make one and sell them? You'll make a fortune.
Not my point...
my point is that we perceive electronics to have great value when they have not. I don't know how to build a power meter, but with the students we build a pretty effective UV-visible spectrophotometer at the cost of about 5 quid.
If you buy a slightly more sophisticated (and a lot bigger) instrument from Perkin Elmer of Varian, you will pay about 20 grand, but in essence it is the same thing a bunch of students can assemble in 4 hours for a fiver.
The price point is what the market is happy to pay for a given item and clearly we are prepared to pay a lot.... these things will get better and will come down in price, just like smart phones did... you can buy smart phones for 60 quid, which are 99% similar to those that retail at 500left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:I don't know how to build a power meter,
Hang on - earlier you said you did know. A cheap hub and a strain gauge attached with some electrical tape, I think you said. Like Alex said, I'll have one off you when you're ready to go to market...0 -
Imposter wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:I don't know how to build a power meter,
Hang on - earlier you said you did know. A cheap hub and a strain gauge attached with some electrical tape, I think you said. Like Alex said, I'll have one off you when you're ready to go to market...
I can strap a strain gauge to an axle, I can probably figure out a way to do a calibration using weights... but I don't understand electronics... hence I would not know how to make that into usable data... I would assume an electronic engineer can do that using a few pence worth of components from the RS catalogue.
I am not saying that anyone can build a power meter, I am saying that it really is not rocket science and the price is over inflated.
I think the technology is old, but the market is young, hence the price point is still "premium"... give it 5-10 years and this stuff will cost 5 times less... then of course there will always be the premium product, but the bog standard Stages will cost 100 quid at best, more likely 50left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:
I think the technology is old, but the market is young, hence the price point is still "premium"... give it 5-10 years and this stuff will cost 5 times less... then of course there will always be the premium product, but the bog standard Stages will cost 100 quid at best, more likely 50
Well the prices of most tech devices decrease over time, so nothing unique in that. On the other hand, in 5 to 10 years time we will all be 5 to 10 years older (approx), and whilst enjoying the bargain PM that we waited 5 to 10 years to buy, we might spare a rueful thought for how much more impressive and useful our power data might have been 5 to 10 years previously... :idea:
Mind you, time machines will probably be 2 for a tenner by then anyway so why sweat over a lost decade if it saves you a few hundred quid eh ?............0 -
Anyway... being only interested in the consequence of power, which is VAM, it seems to me a stop watch is all I really need.
Re. heart rate monitors... I am in two minds about those... firstly one has to find out what those numbers mean for him and secondly he has to trust that these numbers will be reproducible... stress, caffeine, quality of sleep, meals, can all chip in to make those numbers harder to read
I still remember that stupid nurse that kept taking my blood pressure 10 minutes before surgery, because she wasn't happy with the 90 mmHg diastolic reading... I told her she could come back the following week for a 70 or an 80, if that's what she wanted...left the forum March 20230 -
Power meters it's the R&D cost that pushes the pricing up. The power tap hub was the first genuinely accessible power meter, I'd suspect a fair amount of time and effort was required to get it there.0
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you can train on feel ugo. I hardly use my power meter now for training. Both of them are on race bikes where you could argue they serve little purpose apart from in a hour race I may find my true FTP (I have). I will move one of them back to the commuter over winter and the other to one of the winter bikes I suppose for sunday training.
I still think you need to a mix of intervals 2 minute 3 minute 5 minute and 10 minute. The longer the interval the closer to the power you can sustain it should be. add fast rides where you are pushing hard and you keep your heart rate high for 1 hour or so and you should improve you climbing times.
A plot of power vs 1/time (secs^-1) should be a straight line so the shorter the interval the harder it should be. Over the course of a couple of weeks do a mix of intervals focusing on one set in one ride then when they are done just spin. Then repeat. Some coaches like block periodisation where you focus on one aspect of training for a month or two then move to another.
A heart rate monitor is useful. First of all when you start a training ride you can see for a given effort (feel) if your heart rate is high. This might be fatigue if so you can just go for a recovery ride. Also heart rate monitor allows training in zones to some extent once you know where they are. For that you will have to do eyeballs on storks efforts to find you maximium heart rate. Then you will be able to limit your efforts if doing a recovery ride or if doing faster ride for 30 minutes or an hour you can ensure you are not slacking off.
I know a couple of chaps who used to used to be cat 1 who never used (because it was years ago) hear rate monitors or PM's. One of them and he is still bloodly quick still does not. All his training is done by feel. The tech can help but it no subsitute for the hard work.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:You vastly underestimate the value add. It's often got little to do with the material cost of components.
Since you think it's so easy to do it so cheaply, why don't you make one and sell them? You'll make a fortune.
Not my point...
my point is that we perceive electronics to have great value when they have not. I don't know how to build a power meter, but with the students we build a pretty effective UV-visible spectrophotometer at the cost of about 5 quid.
If you buy a slightly more sophisticated (and a lot bigger) instrument from Perkin Elmer of Varian, you will pay about 20 grand, but in essence it is the same thing a bunch of students can assemble in 4 hours for a fiver.
The price point is what the market is happy to pay for a given item and clearly we are prepared to pay a lot.... these things will get better and will come down in price, just like smart phones did... you can buy smart phones for 60 quid, which are 99% similar to those that retail at 500
Judging by the time it seems to take new companies to develop a power meter that works, it's maybe not that easy.Smarter than the average bear.0 -
Distribution, backup, service, support, legal requirements etc etc.antfly wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:You vastly underestimate the value add. It's often got little to do with the material cost of components.
Since you think it's so easy to do it so cheaply, why don't you make one and sell them? You'll make a fortune.
Not my point...
my point is that we perceive electronics to have great value when they have not. I don't know how to build a power meter, but with the students we build a pretty effective UV-visible spectrophotometer at the cost of about 5 quid.
If you buy a slightly more sophisticated (and a lot bigger) instrument from Perkin Elmer of Varian, you will pay about 20 grand, but in essence it is the same thing a bunch of students can assemble in 4 hours for a fiver.
The price point is what the market is happy to pay for a given item and clearly we are prepared to pay a lot.... these things will get better and will come down in price, just like smart phones did... you can buy smart phones for 60 quid, which are 99% similar to those that retail at 500
Judging by the time it seems to take new companies to develop a power meter that works, it's maybe not that easy.
In any case it's not like there isn't competition in the market place. There are something like 20 brands and there are also companies that went broke trying.0 -
Electronics that do a task are easy to put together. Electronics that do something accurately, precisely, reliably and meeting all of the appropriate regulations (including EMC and creepage and clearance requirements) as well as being in a form that can be effectively manufactured etc etc is infinitely harder.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0
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ugo.santalucia wrote:Imposter wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:I don't know how to build a power meter,
Hang on - earlier you said you did know. A cheap hub and a strain gauge attached with some electrical tape, I think you said. Like Alex said, I'll have one off you when you're ready to go to market...
I can strap a strain gauge to an axle, I can probably figure out a way to do a calibration using weights... but I don't understand electronics... hence I would not know how to make that into usable data... I would assume an electronic engineer can do that using a few pence worth of components from the RS catalogue.
I am not saying that anyone can build a power meter, I am saying that it really is not rocket science and the price is over inflated.
I think the technology is old, but the market is young, hence the price point is still "premium"... give it 5-10 years and this stuff will cost 5 times less... then of course there will always be the premium product, but the bog standard Stages will cost 100 quid at best, more likely 50
It's probably a simpler proposition for you to make your own chainrings, but I guess you wouldn't do that. The material cost of the aluminum won't be a lot.
The analogy with a UV spectrophotometer is probably fair. What you're paying for is validation, software, certification, support etc...0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:my point is that we perceive electronics to have great value when they have not. I don't know how to build a power meter, but with the students we build a pretty effective UV-visible spectrophotometer at the cost of about 5 quid.
If you buy a slightly more sophisticated (and a lot bigger) instrument from Perkin Elmer of Varian, you will pay about 20 grand, but in essence it is the same thing a bunch of students can assemble in 4 hours for a fiver.
What I find strange is that you are a scientist, yet you want to take a distinctly non scientific approach to your bike training
Seems rather incongruous.
Go on, embrace your inner nerd! Think of all that lovely data you could be sifting through...0 -
robbo2011 wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:my point is that we perceive electronics to have great value when they have not. I don't know how to build a power meter, but with the students we build a pretty effective UV-visible spectrophotometer at the cost of about 5 quid.
If you buy a slightly more sophisticated (and a lot bigger) instrument from Perkin Elmer of Varian, you will pay about 20 grand, but in essence it is the same thing a bunch of students can assemble in 4 hours for a fiver.
What I find strange is that you are a scientist, yet you want to take a distinctly non scientific approach to your bike training
Seems rather incongruous.
Go on, embrace your inner nerd! Think of all that lovely data you could be sifting through...
Science can be cruel though... I could invest a grand and get fully tested, find out that my VO2 max is something like 50 ml min-1 Kg-1, that my lung capacity is 4.5 litres and my blood volume is short of 5 litres, which means my neighbour who does no sport might be a lot better than me given a couple of months of proper training...
BTW: I belive my numbers are more or less those above, but at least now I can fool myself and believe they aren't...
left the forum March 20230 -
three weeks of intervals during my commute to work and today I got my best up Dovers hill... 6:43 for 135 vertical metres, which is a whopping 17 seconds faster and roughly 1200 mt of VAM. It also came after 100 Km and 1500 mt of climbing, so I might be able to do even better if a bit fresher... it seems to work :-)left the forum March 20230
