Is Di2 worth it?

darkhairedlord

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Electronic shifting & alloy wheels with carbon fairings have to be two products the marketing people can feel extremely proud about. Total vanity purchases and won't make you a better/ faster cycler

vanity purchases always make you faster.

ugo.santalucia

darkhairedlord wrote:

Scrape up as much money as you can and buy the best bike you can. There is no point in buying a cheap bike to see if you like it. If the bike is poor you won't like cycling and you will have wasted your money. If you enjoy riding you will then want to get a better bike and will have wasted your money.

Depends... there is also the type who makes a point of taking a scalp of anyone on a Venge...

daniel_b

darkhairedlord wrote:

Scrape up as much money as you can and buy the best bike you can. There is no point in buying a cheap bike to see if you like it. If the bike is poor you won't like cycling and you will have wasted your money. If you enjoy riding you will then want to get a better bike and will have wasted your money.

I can see the argument both ways.

But if you are a genuine newbie, and don't really know if you will take to it, I do think limiting spending down to something in the region of £500-£700 makes a lot of sense, on a lot of levels.

Firstly, if you buy something generally well regarded such as a Decathlon bike, chances are if you decide it is not for you, you can sell it on for not much in the way of loss.
I remember the Triban 3 Reds selling a couple of years for more than they cost new.

And even if it does lose 40% say, 40% of £500 is £200, as opposed to £800 on a 2K bike.

Additionally if you then take to it, and it's still a decent bike, and you have bought wisely, you can stick mudguards on it, and magically you have a winter bike, before you then go and spend whatever you can justify at that point on a new summer\best bike.

Also, that time spent with a cheaper heavier bike and a potentially inferior groupset, will help you analyse what it is you want to get from your best bike, whether it is speed, comfort or a mix of the both, much better groupset better climbing ability etc - did you not get on with SRAM\Shimano\Campag, and do you want to try another competitor - test ride one perhaps before buying.
Is the position on your first bike too stretched, too racy, too upright?
All these things you can analyse overtime, and increase the chance of getting the right second bike when it comes to it.

The other option if paying a huge whack of cash is to accompany it with a bike fit of course.

meanredspider

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Electronic shifting & alloy wheels with carbon fairings have to be two products the marketing people can feel extremely proud about. Total vanity purchases and won't make you a better/ faster cycler

Like 90% of the parts on any bike, then. Di2 isn't about speed. If you think it is, you've missed the point entirely...

isotonik

meanredspider wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Electronic shifting & alloy wheels with carbon fairings have to be two products the marketing people can feel extremely proud about. Total vanity purchases and won't make you a better/ faster cycler

Like 90% of the parts on any bike, then. Di2 isn't about speed. If you think it is, you've missed the point entirely...

Di2 is'nt going to make you any faster but it will make you lighter in the wallet. it has no advantage over mech.

electronics all fail at some point and Di2 makes you vulnerable to that addage.

meanredspider

isotonik wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Electronic shifting & alloy wheels with carbon fairings have to be two products the marketing people can feel extremely proud about. Total vanity purchases and won't make you a better/ faster cycler

Like 90% of the parts on any bike, then. Di2 isn't about speed. If you think it is, you've missed the point entirely...

Di2 is'nt going to make you any faster but it will make you lighter in the wallet. it has no advantage over mech.

electronics all fail at some point and Di2 makes you vulnerable to that addage.

No lighter in the wallet for Ultegra Di2 than some of the absurdly expensive mechanical groupsets - which equally won't make you any faster.

Everything fails at some point. That £130 DA cassette will fail much faster. There's a good possibility that the DA brifters will fail before the electronics do on Di2.

And it does have some advantages over mechanical - and the advantages will only grow. These may be be speed related (although they might) but they'll improve the riding experience for those of us for whom cycling isn't about changing gear through pulling bits of wire or messing about cleaning and changing cables.

And the gap in price between Di2 and mechanical will continue to close.

My choice of Di2 has nothing to do with vanity. I ride 95% of my time on my own. I don't give a stuff about what my bike looks like - it's ALL about the ride. I choose Di2 because it just works - every time all the time. And, apart from a minute spent popping the battery off every month or two, I don't need to touch it. And when I'm riding, gear changing is subliminal - the tiniest twitch of the finger and that's it. The latest versions will change front and rear in simple sequential mode.

Now if you spec your modern car with winding windows, a choke lever and carbs, and manual ignition advance/retard, respect to you, because "electronics all fail at some point" and these make "you vulnerable to that addage"

robbo2011

Didn't Adam Yates lose time in the TdF due to gear issues? Was he using Di2?

Edit, yeah looks like he might have been:

http://road.cc/content/tech-news/196787 ... adam-yates’-scott-addict


hmm.

meanredspider

robbo2011 wrote:

Didn't Adam Yates lose time in the TdF due to gear issues? Was he using Di2?

Edit, yeah looks like he might have been:

http://road.cc/content/tech-news/196787 ... adam-yates’-scott-addict


hmm.

From the same site

Shimano’s Dura-Ace Di2 groupset enjoys almost complete domination for another season. No surprise there. There are a few star riders on mechanical Dura-Ace groupsets (Fabian Cancellara and Alberto Contador) but this seems to be based on no good reason other than superstition. SRAM has two teams on its new RED eTap wireless for the first season, after its unofficial debut this year - could this be the start of SRAM's push back into the WorldTour?

Hmm

robbo2011

it's incredible how touchy you are over your equipment choices, MRS. Why the insecurity?

It's only a bike...

meanredspider

robbo2011 wrote:

it's incredible how touchy you are over your equipment choices, MRS. Why the insecurity?

It's only a bike...

I'm not touchy at all - if you could see me now you'd know I couldn't be more relaxed. There's just soooo much nonsense talked on here about this stuff - much of which has no basis in reality or experience. I actually find it genuinely funny and enjoy it. I don't frankly care what anybody chooses and I suggested the OP went mechanical. I only post on here when I'm bored these days so I pop back to threads like this for entertainment. I might come across as touchy but it's quite the reverse. And I'm many things but insecure isn't one of them

Anonymous

Daniel B wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Scrape up as much money as you can and buy the best bike you can. There is no point in buying a cheap bike to see if you like it. If the bike is poor you won't like cycling and you will have wasted your money. If you enjoy riding you will then want to get a better bike and will have wasted your money.

I can see the argument both ways.

But if you are a genuine newbie, and don't really know if you will take to it, I do think limiting spending down to something in the region of £500-£700 makes a lot of sense, on a lot of levels.

Firstly, if you buy something generally well regarded such as a Decathlon bike, chances are if you decide it is not for you, you can sell it on for not much in the way of loss.
I remember the Triban 3 Reds selling a couple of years for more than they cost new.

And even if it does lose 40% say, 40% of £500 is £200, as opposed to £800 on a 2K bike.

Additionally if you then take to it, and it's still a decent bike, and you have bought wisely, you can stick mudguards on it, and magically you have a winter bike, before you then go and spend whatever you can justify at that point on a new summer\best bike.

Also, that time spent with a cheaper heavier bike and a potentially inferior groupset, will help you analyse what it is you want to get from your best bike, whether it is speed, comfort or a mix of the both, much better groupset better climbing ability etc - did you not get on with SRAM\Shimano\Campag, and do you want to try another competitor - test ride one perhaps before buying.
Is the position on your first bike too stretched, too racy, too upright?
All these things you can analyse overtime, and increase the chance of getting the right second bike when it comes to it.

The other option if paying a huge whack of cash is to accompany it with a bike fit of course.

Nah, I agree with DHL.
Lifes too short to ride around on a crap bike when you can have a good one

robbo2011

So, what we learned from the TdF is that Di2 does indeed go wrong (I also remember a few other incidents of gear problems whilst watching coverage over the three weeks).

What we don't know of course is whether the rate of incidents would have been more or less frequent if the peleton were mostly using mechanical groupsets. And we never will do so it is all speculation.

stueys

meanredspider wrote:

robbo2011 wrote:

it's incredible how touchy you are over your equipment choices, MRS. Why the insecurity?

It's only a bike...

I'm not touchy at all - if you could see me now you'd know I couldn't be more relaxed. There's just soooo much nonsense talked on here about this stuff - much of which has no basis in reality or experience. I actually find it genuinely funny and enjoy it. I don't frankly care what anybody chooses and I suggested the OP went mechanical. I only post on here when I'm bored these days so I pop back to threads like this for entertainment. I might come across as touchy but it's quite the reverse. And I'm many things but insecure isn't one of them

I've given up on these threads after the last DI2 one. The arguments are between group a - (people who have switched to electronic from mechanical and love it) and group b - (people who have never tried electronic for a prolonged period and want to justify their decision). Never the twain shall meet, it's like the other faithful, disc brakes.

Interestingly we never hear from anyone who tried electronic but switched back to mechanical because it wasn't worth it, too unreliable, battery needed charging, etc, etc....

ugo.santalucia

Stueys wrote:

Interestingly we never hear from anyone who tried electronic but switched back to mechanical because it wasn't worth it, too unreliable, battery needed charging, etc, etc....

A couple of pages back... someone did just that

Interestingly, I am in the disc brakes bracket... don't think they are anything special and I think calipers work just as well. My argument is mainly saving money in the long run... I have a pair of rather expensive HED rims for now 2 years, done about 12K miles on them... like new... it's nice. There is an argument that they are better in the wet, but to be honest I have never attempted descending Honister pass in wet weather... might happen next year, hopefully not. If brakes perform less well in the wet, you just ride more conservatively... so long as they are predictable all is well. If I was to enter something really big, like the Tour du Mont Blanc, I'd probably buy a light bike with rim calipers, as disc fitted bikes are pretty much all bricks

robbo2011

Stueys wrote:

I've given up on these threads after the last DI2 one. The arguments are between group a - (people who have switched to electronic from mechanical and love it) and group b - (people who have never tried electronic for a prolonged period and want to justify their decision). Never the twain shall meet, it's like the other faithful, disc brakes.

Interestingly we never hear from anyone who tried electronic but switched back to mechanical because it wasn't worth it, too unreliable, battery needed charging, etc, etc....

Here's another example just posted.

viewtopic.php?f=40013&t=13067966

I am not against electronic, in fact I might consider an Etap Groupset when my current Red Groupset wears out. However, to consider electronic as infallible would be a mistake, IMO.

meanredspider

robbo2011 wrote:

However, to consider electronic as infallible would be a mistake, IMO.

Id agree entirely. I've certainly never claimed it's infallible - I'm an engineer and work for consumer electronics and medical electronics companies - I know exactly how reliable these things are. My point is that I've found it totally reliable after 5 years of use and real abuse.

There was a school of thought at the launch of Di2 that suggested that there would be lots of cyclists with their "vanity" Di2 stranded beside the road. These predictions have never come to pass. In fact I'd wager (though I have no way to prove it) that there are far more cyclists experiencing issues with mechanical systems (broken cables, mis-shifts, poor indexing) as a proportion, than there are Di2 issues.

I'm always surprised by the number of people that won't consider Di2 or criticise it but will switch to eTap. I'd love to understand what's going on in their heads.

cougie

What I don't like about di2 are the cables. And the battery.
Cables seem to be a potential weak point and look a bit messy too. If the battery goes then you are stuck in one gear. With etap you at least have a possibility of swapping batteries between the gears.

I'm still on mechanical and don't anticipate changing groupsets any time soon. Normal sram works fine for me. Don't think I've messed with the gears in four years.

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

I'm always surprised by the number of people that won't consider Di2 or criticise it but will switch to eTap. I'd love to understand what's going on in their heads.

ETap takes away the connections, which are a weak point (can fail/corrode etc... ) moreover it looks better without the cables and it's easier to assemble... there is the matter of how reliable communication between these units is... but seeing remote controlled cars and aircrafts were around 30 years ago, one would hope by now this technology is nailed to the smallest detail (he said whilst losing the wireless connection... )

robbo2011

meanredspider wrote:

I'm always surprised by the number of people that won't consider Di2 or criticise it but will switch to eTap. I'd love to understand what's going on in their heads.

Ah well, in my case, my frame is not Di2 compatible so Etap would be much easier. It't purely logistical.

meanredspider

Well that's exactly it, Ugo. I have a team of EMC engineers working for me. I'd go for wires every time. As for looking better, there is the vanity piece. If we really wanted, it would be incredibly easy to hide the wires in frames totally.

rolf_f

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stueys wrote:

Interestingly we never hear from anyone who tried electronic but switched back to mechanical because it wasn't worth it, too unreliable, battery needed charging, etc, etc....

A couple of pages back... someone did just that

Interestingly, I am in the disc brakes bracket... don't think they are anything special and I think calipers work just as well. My argument is mainly saving money in the long run... I have a pair of rather expensive HED rims for now 2 years, done about 12K miles on them... like new... it's nice. There is an argument that they are better in the wet, but to be honest I have never attempted descending Honister pass in wet weather... might happen next year, hopefully not. If brakes perform less well in the wet, you just ride more conservatively... so long as they are predictable all is well. If I was to enter something really big, like the Tour du Mont Blanc, I'd probably buy a light bike with rim calipers, as disc fitted bikes are pretty much all bricks

Have you tried the Ryde/Rigida ceramic coated rims? I'm not sure how good the road rims are but the touring rims of my mate on our 4200 mile ride to the North Cape showed no sign of wear whatsoever whereas my new, normal alloy rims were noticeably worn at the end of the trip. They do seem to be in a different league to the Mavic wipe off coatings! I am tempted to make a pair of wheels for the commuter using them though the problem is when you can get a pair of new Khamsins for £60 without trying too hard spending far more than that on the rims alone seems financially dubious.

robbo2011

Does anybody actually have Etap on here? I haven't seen any threads, seems like the take up is quite slow.

I saw someone at a local bike shop showing his mates the system before they went off for a ride but that is all I have seen.

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

. As for looking better, there is the vanity piece. If we really wanted, it would be incredibly easy to hide the wires in frames totally.

Better looks is 90% of what all the new technology is about. What was wrong with external cable routing as in Shimano 5600? Took 2 minutes to replace a cable, now you need to unwrap the bar tape, untape, retape and all of that

ugo.santalucia

Rolf F wrote:

Have you tried the Ryde/Rigida ceramic coated rims? I'm not sure how good the road rims are but the touring rims of my mate on our 4200 mile ride to the North Cape showed no sign of wear whatsoever whereas my new, normal alloy rims were noticeably worn at the end of the trip. They do seem to be in a different league to the Mavic wipe off coatings! I am tempted to make a pair of wheels for the commuter using them though the problem is when you can get a pair of new Khamsins for £60 without trying too hard spending far more than that on the rims alone seems financially dubious.

I am unlikely to buy a carbon bike to be fitted with a pair of 32 H Rigida rims that weight 2 Kg though... if I was to abandon the disc route, it would be to seek something skinnier... at the moment I don't see the point... I am reasonably OK with my 9Kg disc brick

robbo2011

Ryde Pulse rims are available with the ceramic coating. about 400g per rim.

meesterbond

robbo2011 wrote:

Does anybody actually have Etap on here? I haven't seen any threads, seems like the take up is quite slow.

I saw someone at a local bike shop showing his mates the system before they went off for a ride but that is all I have seen.

I do - it's brilliant!

furiousd

I have just upgraded my 6700 to di2 ultegra on my Cervelo. Very happy with it. I have 6800 on another bike and very happy with that. The Di2 is different, easy, precise. I am pleased i decided to get it, only got it last week so early days. For me is it worth it, probably not but i wanted it

meanredspider

robbo2011 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I'm always surprised by the number of people that won't consider Di2 or criticise it but will switch to eTap. I'd love to understand what's going on in their heads.

Ah well, in my case, my frame is not Di2 compatible so Etap would be much easier. It't purely logistical.

What element of the frame? I've fitted to two frames that were not designed for Di2. Even bikes without internal frame routing can run it externally as I have on the Volagi.

pilot_pete

elliot.baker wrote:

Hello all

I'm thinking of getting a road bike (for the first time, from a full sus mtb) and I'm torn between getting the cheapest possible bike that Decathlon sell or saving up and busting out 2k on something decent... If I'm spending that much I was hoping to get Di2, but what do users think? Is it like a life changing revolution in gear changing or is it more of a gimmick/fad?

Is 2k near the mark for a Di2 road bike?

Cheers
EB

Is it life changing? No. Is it very, very good? Yes, in my experience. What is most impressive in my opinion is the front shifting which is sublime and instantaneous compared to my previous bike with Campagnolo Chorus/ Record mix.

I have Dura Ace Di2 on a Colnago C60 using Rotor cranks with round rings and all internal wiring. Built the bike last November and it has been faultless since. Fitting the Di2 is simplicity itself and the Shimano technical manual is clear and straightforward to follow. It has a few thousand miles on it so far this summer and I have only had to charge the battery once since the initial charge after fitting.

So, changing mechanical cables is easy enough but thus far I suspect I will probably do less maintenance to the electronic group than my several other mechanical groups of various flavours which has included fitting inners every year of so, outer cable replacement every other year or so and (certainly with the Campagnolo) seemingly constant tweeking of rear derailleur adjustment to keep it performing. I did have Centaur shifters for a year or two which were nothing but trouble due to a design fault and even after rectification rebuild with a different spool they still never performed perfectly.

So I am a convert and don't regret my decision, but it is horses for courses and largely comes down to whether you can justify the cost. I could and must admit when I replace my winter bike I will seriously consider Di2 (probably Ultegra), my current winter bike has SRAM Apex/ Force, which works fine but is certainly a little agricultural compared to Di2. Again, comes down to budget as my choice would not be justifiable for others.

PP

stueys

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stueys wrote:

Interestingly we never hear from anyone who tried electronic but switched back to mechanical because it wasn't worth it, too unreliable, battery needed charging, etc, etc....

A couple of pages back... someone did just that

Interestingly, I am in the disc brakes bracket... don't think they are anything special and I think calipers work just as well. My argument is mainly saving money in the long run... I have a pair of rather expensive HED rims for now 2 years, done about 12K miles on them... like new... it's nice. There is an argument that they are better in the wet, but to be honest I have never attempted descending Honister pass in wet weather... might happen next year, hopefully not. If brakes perform less well in the wet, you just ride more conservatively... so long as they are predictable all is well. If I was to enter something really big, like the Tour du Mont Blanc, I'd probably buy a light bike with rim calipers, as disc fitted bikes are pretty much all bricks

Damn, I missed that....

I'd suggest that's the vast minority though.

Re DI2, I've one bike with it on and two bikes without. My nice bike will always have di2, it's improves the riding experience and its just so easy to use. My nice bikes gets packed into a bike box, wheel swapped, etc, etc and di2 makes all of that painless. I re-indexed my gears when I shifted to my mountain wheels the other month, it required me to slow my cadence on the climb I was on whilst I did it on the move Mechanical would have required trying to jury rig a work bench out of my hotel sofa and probably significant pain.

But I think it all comes down to priorities. My winter bike runs sram rival; sram because I find it easier in gloves than my normal preferred shim (and I also find the indexing stays dialled in for longer). Mechanical rival because my winter bike prioritises 'droppability' highly, I ride it in marginal conditions so want a low replacement cost. I can't see me putting di2 on it until the cost profile against mechanical is negligible. My nice bike has a far higher bias towards riding experience so gets the nice kit, everyone's priorities will be different.

We agree on discs though. I wouldn't have a winter bike without them but I'm not rushing to shift my nice bike to discs. Too heavy, too un-aero at the moment,nand not really needed for the conditions I take the nice bike out in. I have to admit though it takes me a week or two to get used to being back on rim brakes after a winter on discs, disc performance is significantly better. I think we are a couple of years away from discs being mainstream, it's a question of when not if. It would be nice to see a deep section wheel fully aero shaped to the tyre and also to not have to think about a carbon clinchers heat management abilities.