TdF 2016 Stage 17 *Contains spoilers*

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Comments

  • Moraygub
    Moraygub Posts: 9
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:

    It's exactly the same racing as we have seen at the Tour for the past two decades or more.

    No it isn't.

    See 1998, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011

    1998 ? Can hardly be put into any category given the shambolic way the race panned out.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:

    It's exactly the same racing as we have seen at the Tour for the past two decades or more.

    No it isn't.

    See 1998, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011
    2003 was only vaguely different because Armstrong had a stinker in the time trial. In 2009 Astana controlled the race enough to get a old man on the podium.

    In the last 25 Tours there have been two credible GC challengers wear the yellow jersey on only six occasions.
    Two of those saw Andy Schleck lose the Tour in the TT
    2006 was just bizarre and one was Rasmussen getting sent home.

    So since 1990 the only times a prospective winner has lost the yellow jersey by being attacked were 1998 and 2008.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,398
    Interesting stats, cheers Rich. If it hadn't been for Cavendish, Sagan and Froome's novelty attacks this year would be very snoozy.

    Unless something dramatic happens the Giro was definitely the better race... again...
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Unless something dramatic happens the Giro was definitely the better race... again...

    But it's the Giro, so, y'know, negative points.

    As for the 2006 tour, that was hilarious. On a 'if you don't laugh you'll cry basis' only.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,031
    But there is usually enough in the race to suggest the leader or favourite *might* lose the jersey, - there are usually attacks whicch might come to nought but which at least for a few kms look like the leader may be in trouble - it's the lack of hope that makes this one different. Which editions have been worse - last 20 years?
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    But there is usually enough in the race to suggest the leader or favourite *might* lose the jersey, - there are usually attacks whicch might come to nought but which at least for a few kms look like the leader may be in trouble - it's the lack of hope that makes this one different. Which editions have been worse - last 20 years?

    Every year is the worst year, until we get some perspective, forget about our ludicrous hopes and expectations, and get down to the serious business of declaring this year's tour as the worst ever.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    People have been going on about Sky's team strength, but in the last two days both Dennis and Cancellara have left the race to prepare for the Olympics. Both have teammates in the top 5 in GC. Can you image a Sky rider leaving like that? Henao's wife had a baby yesterday. You wonder how together some teams are.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,031
    Alas I fear you are right, an attack which puts the yellow jersey under pressure does appear to be a ludicrous expectation this year.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,398
    RichN95 wrote:
    People have been going on about Sky's team strength, but in the last two days both Dennis and Cancellara have left the race to prepare for the Olympics. Both have teammates in the top 5 in GC. Can you image a Sky rider leaving like that? Henao's wife had a baby yesterday. You wonder how together some teams are.
    Yes that and the fact a couple of the teams do have budgets which approach Sky's and you have to start wondering what they're doing with it all.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,655
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:

    It's exactly the same racing as we have seen at the Tour for the past two decades or more.

    No it isn't.

    See 1998, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011
    2003 was only vaguely different because Armstrong had a stinker in the time trial. In 2009 Astana controlled the race enough to get a old man on the podium.

    In the last 25 Tours there have been two credible GC challengers wear the yellow jersey on only six occasions.
    Two of those saw Andy Schleck lose the Tour in the TT
    2006 was just bizarre and one was Rasmussen getting sent home.

    So since 1990 the only times a prospective winner has lost the yellow jersey by being attacked were 1998 and 2008.


    What I meant is in all those races you had a number of man v man GC battles over more than the sum total of 6km.

    That's what's missing in this one.
    _
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    2014 was SUCH an exciting year. I mean Nibali wasn't leading by 5+ minutes by this point or anything. :roll:
    Correlation is not causation.
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    Sky versus the 00's Postman on dope that would be fun
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,704
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:

    It's exactly the same racing as we have seen at the Tour for the past two decades or more.

    No it isn't.

    See 1998, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011
    2003 was only vaguely different because Armstrong had a stinker in the time trial. In 2009 Astana controlled the race enough to get a old man on the podium.

    In the last 25 Tours there have been two credible GC challengers wear the yellow jersey on only six occasions.
    Two of those saw Andy Schleck lose the Tour in the TT
    2006 was just bizarre and one was Rasmussen getting sent home.

    So since 1990 the only times a prospective winner has lost the yellow jersey by being attacked were 1998 and 2008.


    What I meant is in all those races you had a number of man v man GC battles over more than the sum total of 6km.

    That's what's missing in this one.

    Naturally, there have been gap years, between dominant periods.
    Even some of those races you list had riders and teams who would only attempt anything when their position on GC was threatened, as we had yesterday.
    Nothing new to have riders in the TDF so afraid to lose, they won't try to win.
    In that respect, credit to Dan Martin on and off the bike. His post stage interview expressed some the same sentiment.
    Meanwhile Bauke Mollema's says legs are not as good as last week.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,655
    You can say all this "it's always been this way" but I have watched every Tour since 1998 and this is one of the most boring by a long way.
    _
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,449
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    People have been going on about Sky's team strength, but in the last two days both Dennis and Cancellara have left the race to prepare for the Olympics. Both have teammates in the top 5 in GC. Can you image a Sky rider leaving like that? Henao's wife had a baby yesterday. You wonder how together some teams are.
    Yes that and the fact a couple of the teams do have budgets which approach Sky's and you have to start wondering what they're doing with it all.

    BMC, as an example. Who's main recruitment policy seems to be to get two riders who are broadly similar for leadership roles, i.e. Porte and Van Garderen, Van Avermaet and Gilbert, then fail to manage the problem. Their lack of top tier mountain domestiques is particularly baffling.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,704
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    You can say all this "it's always been this way" but I have watched every Tour since 1998 and this is one of the most boring by a long way.


    Where did I say that it wasn't boring?
    My point was that because of the prescribed way the Tour is raced, exciting races are fairly rare.
    Lucky you weren't around for 1991-1995.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • epc06
    epc06 Posts: 216
    joe2008 wrote:
    Sky versus the 00's Postman on dope that would be fun

    only one winner there
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    You can say all this "it's always been this way" but I have watched every Tour since 1998 and this is one of the most boring by a long way.

    Well I have been watching the Tour for a lot longer than that and I have found every year enthralling for it's epic qualities and drama. What other sport is played out on a stage like this over three weeks, unfolding day by day with almost a different playing field every day?

    Football by comparison is so repetitive and predictable now I don't know how anyone can be bothered turning on let alone actually paying to watch or see a match.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,655
    So how does this Tour rank?


    The main positive is the lack of bunch crashes.

    Was getting a bit ridic the last few years.
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    One thing you get with the way Sky ride is successful breakaways in the mountains and that adds an extra race on those days.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,031
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    You can say all this "it's always been this way" but I have watched every Tour since 1998 and this is one of the most boring by a long way.


    Where did I say that it wasn't boring?
    My point was that because of the prescribed way the Tour is raced, exciting races are fairly rare.
    Lucky you weren't around for 1991-1995.

    [/quote].

    Aye when I were a lad !

    This is a stinker, maybe the Indurain years were worse I don't know I've only followed the sport for the last 20 years.

    I've seen some pick out the Nibali win - this race has nothing on 2014. Some of the early stages in 2014 were great racing and while he ended up dominant there were far more attacks not just for the win but for GC places. As I think Ugo said it's not just about the margin of victory it's the way it's achieved.

    edit - annoying quote function!
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    EPC06 wrote:
    joe2008 wrote:
    Sky versus the 00's Postman on dope that would be fun

    only one winner there

    Postman?
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Unless something dramatic happens the Giro was definitely the better race... again...

    Yes, but take any of the current top 9 (excluding Valverde) and they would have won this years Giro by a margin making that race boring.

    The TdF is only seen to be boring because all the best riders are here trying for the best finish possible. Having the best in the same race means there is very little to separate them and that is what we are seeing on all MTF's.
  • jscl
    jscl Posts: 1,015
    joe2008 wrote:
    EPC06 wrote:
    joe2008 wrote:
    Sky versus the 00's Postman on dope that would be fun

    only one winner there

    Postman?
    USPS.

    Livestrong.

    Sir Lance.
    Follow me on Twitter - http://twitter.com/scalesjason - All posts are strictly my personal view.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,398
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Unless something dramatic happens the Giro was definitely the better race... again...

    Yes, but take any of the current top 9 (excluding Valverde) and they would have won this years Giro by a margin making that race boring.

    The TdF is only seen to be boring because all the best riders are here trying for the best finish possible. Having the best in the same race means there is very little to separate them and that is what we are seeing on all MTF's.
    All true.

    Still better to watch though!
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,535
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Unless something dramatic happens the Giro was definitely the better race... again...

    Yes, but take any of the current top 9 (excluding Valverde) and they would have won this years Giro by a margin making that race boring.

    The TdF is only seen to be boring because all the best riders are here trying for the best finish possible. Having the best in the same race means there is very little to separate them and that is what we are seeing on all MTF's.

    I don't think that is true. If it was true then they would have ridden the Giro. Fairly sure that Dan Martin would swap 9th at the tour for a GT win.
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    You can say all this "it's always been this way" but I have watched every Tour since 1998 and this is one of the most boring by a long way.


    Where did I say that it wasn't boring?
    My point was that because of the prescribed way the Tour is raced, exciting races are fairly rare.
    Lucky you weren't around for 1991-1995.
    .

    Aye when I were a lad !

    This is a stinker, maybe the Indurain years were worse I don't know I've only followed the sport for the last 20 years.

    I've seen some pick out the Nibali win - this race has nothing on 2014. Some of the early stages in 2014 were great racing and while he ended up dominant there were far more attacks not just for the win but for GC places. As I think Ugo said it's not just about the margin of victory it's the way it's achieved.

    edit - annoying quote function![/quote]


    Ok, I'm also giving up on this Tour as a spectacle. I've been watching for over 30 years and this is one of the worst I can remember. The Indurain years weren't much fun, but Rominger, Virenque et al did take a pop in the mountains before inevitably being crushed in the TTs.

    I actually fell asleep watching the "highlights" yesterday. The one slight silver lining for me is the form of Adam Yates. He strikes me as one that in the future won't be afraid to take this race by the scruff of the neck.

    Here's hoping.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • andyrac
    andyrac Posts: 1,170
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Maybe next year Froome should target the Giro-Vuelta double and that would leave the tour more open. He likes the Vuelta anyway.

    I'd like to see him do this. Having won all 3 GTs is an achievement(something Bertie & Nibali have done) - rather than winning multiple TdFs. But Sky probably wouldn't agree.
    All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."
  • Coach H
    Coach H Posts: 1,092
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    You can say all this "it's always been this way" but I have watched every Tour since 1998 and this is one of the most boring by a long way.


    Where did I say that it wasn't boring?
    My point was that because of the prescribed way the Tour is raced, exciting races are fairly rare.
    Lucky you weren't around for 1991-1995.
    .

    Aye when I were a lad !

    This is a stinker, maybe the Indurain years were worse I don't know I've only followed the sport for the last 20 years.

    I've seen some pick out the Nibali win - this race has nothing on 2014. Some of the early stages in 2014 were great racing and while he ended up dominant there were far more attacks not just for the win but for GC places. As I think Ugo said it's not just about the margin of victory it's the way it's achieved.

    edit - annoying quote function![/quote]

    There is no doubt about it, if you think this type of racing is boring its a good job you didn't watch the Indurain years. Nailed the TT's then sat in without a hint of an attack in the mountains. At best you may have seen Big Mig raise his cadence every now and again to respond to an acceleration but you wont have seen him lift his enormous lungs out of the saddle. And who was his biggest threat? Alex Zulle! Froome (& Sky) look like the most exciting racing ever in comparison.

    For what its worth I've quite enjoyed this year. The resurgence of Cav, the consistency and entertainment from Sagan, the unpredicted moves by Froome
    Coach H. (Dont ask me for training advice - 'It's not about the bike')
  • Garry H
    Garry H Posts: 6,639
    AndyRAC wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Maybe next year Froome should target the Giro-Vuelta double and that would leave the tour more open. He likes the Vuelta anyway.

    I'd like to see him do this. Having won all 3 GTs is an achievement(something Bertie & Nibali have done) - rather than winning multiple TdFs. But Sky probably wouldn't agree.

    I think many would disagree to be honest. The only time winning the Giro and the Vuelta is particularly notable is if it's done in the same year. I would say that three Tours trumps winning one of each.

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