run into from behind/crash and carbon frame question

bing gordon

I was ran into from behind today. Some guy decided not to look to his right when entering a roundabout and drove straight into the back of me and throwing me clean off and running over my rear wheel (right off).

I've gone over the frame and can't see any cracks but is there anyway techy way a carbon frame can be tested or should I just write it off ?. I have it captured on a garmin elite virb tagged with GPS data. The guy reckons he was slowing down and doing about 5-10mph max the time he hit me, GPS says I was doing 19.8mph and he caught me up and ran into the back of me from behind so he was at least doing 25-30mph. he never stopped at the give way

arthur_scrimshaw

Do you desperately want to keep the frame? I'd treat it with caution after a bang like that and get a proper inspection. Personally I'd consider it toast. You were ok in the crash, got the drivers details etc?

bing gordon

going up hospital , not feeling well

slowbike

It's possible the frame is ok, but as the car ran over your wheel I'd assume it ran over part of the frame too - write it off IMHO

keef66

Even if he didn't actually hit the frame, running over the rear wheel could have put an unacceptable strain on the dropouts / stays / rear triangle. You wouldn't want to find out 6 months down the line that something has been catastrophically weakened.

Good luck at the hospital. Did you whack your head??

First.Aspect

Are you a football manager?

bing gordon

First Aspect wrote:

Are you a football manager?

If there's a joke in there I don't get it

Anyway , I spent the afternoon and night in hospital getting checked out as I had double vision and was been sick. Had a CT scan and all's well. Got some rough pain in the back of my neck and the front chest lower neck at the front . Some cuts and bruises and one hell of a hip bang.
At first inspection this morning the bike frame initially looks ok but the back wheels a right off, it's totally buckled. The reason i said about the frame it's my pride and joy Specialized Roubaix Pro full dura ace but I cant trust the frame and wouldn't feel safe riding it so I'm totally gutted about that.
So as for my next move ?, I have the guys details and insurance car reg etc... but I don't have any bike insurance myself so I've not a clue what I do. There was a guy 20metres behind me on another road bike I acknowledged him when passing, I over took him entering the roundabout so I need to get hold of his details from the Police as he saw everything.

I do have it all recorded on a Garmin Virb Elite mounted to my handlebars and the guy in the car claimed to the Police officer he was doing 5-10mph which is total lies. I was doing (gps imprint on garmin footage from an 810) 19.8mph and the footage clearly shows I had passed the junction were he was entering so for him to hit me from behind he would have needed to be going faster than me to catch me up and run over by back wheel and launch me off the bike.

So, I think what happened was, the guy I passed entering the roundabout was wearing all bright luminous green , shoes clothes and bike and I think the guy in the car was too busy looking to his right and saw the guy in green but didn't see me in his peripheral vision already pass him just to his left and he sped up to get onto the roundabout from the slip road and get in front of the guy on the road bike dressed all in green then he accelerated on to the roundabout and rear ended me at speed otherwise how can he hit me if I've passed him doing nearly 20mph and he's doing 5-10mph ? not possible unless he starred in "Inception"

The roundabout is a very big roundabout and people enter and leave at speed. The Police officer attending said I'm very lucky to be alive as normally when he attends cyclist been knocked off here they end up in a body bag as they are normally knocked off then run over by over vehicles or lorries heading for the motorway up the slip road.

I'm no spring chicken and this has proper put the willies up me and I don't think I will ever get my confidence to ride on the roads again. I did everything right but no matter how hard you try it only takes 1 lapse of concentration from and driver and thats it.


If anyone has any advise on what to do that would be great as I've not a clue bar get hold of the guy in green for a statement



thank my lucky stars I say ***

slowbike

First Q - are you a CTC or BC member? If so, they offer legal advice as part of their membership.

If not - get yourself over to the commuting section and there's a sticky thread on what to do in case of an accident.

There are roads that I'll actively avoid because the traffic isn't condusive to cycling - this roundabout sounds like one of those.
It's understandable that you're shaken up - never say never, just take it easy and get yourself sorted first.

haydenm

bing gordon wrote:

I'm no spring chicken and this has proper put the willies up me and I don't think I will ever get my confidence to ride on the roads again. I did everything right but no matter how hard you try it only takes 1 lapse of concentration from and driver and thats it.

That's sad to hear. A friend of mine was knocked off when a 4x4 tried to overtake her, she was pretty shaken up and said a similar thing, it's taken her about 6 months to get the confidence to get back out on the road even at quiet times of the day. I'm sure you'll get it back over time. She got a new bike through the driver's insurance I think but I'll check

bing gordon

Slowbike wrote:

First Q - are you a CTC or BC member? If so, they offer legal advice as part of their membership.

If not - get yourself over to the commuting section and there's a sticky thread on what to do in case of an accident.

There are roads that I'll actively avoid because the traffic isn't condusive to cycling - this roundabout sounds like one of those.
It's understandable that you're shaken up - never say never, just take it easy and get yourself sorted first.

I'm not a member any CTC or BC , the roundabout is one of those unavoidable jobs were you need to cross to get from A to B as plus the rest of the route has it's fair share of cycling lanes that's why I tend to stick to the same 3-4 routes, wide roads and cycling lanes.
I'll take a look at the thread and give it a read regarding accidents thanks for that

keef66

It doesn't matter that you have no insurance. You need a solicitor to pursue the driver / his insurer. You should get a new bike and some compensation for your injuries / other expenses.

First.Aspect

Brace yourself for a long process. If you see any compensation within a year you will be doing well.

There will have to be a claim against the driver's insurance. You will need a solicitor. Perhaps have one appointed via your house insurance, or go to CTC website and find one there. You will be able to appoint a solicitor without incurring any up front costs. When you eventually receive a payout, the solicitor will receive a fee from the insurers separately and this will not concern you or be relevant to the amount you receive.

Take your solicitor's advice. The commuting chat thread is helpful to set expectations, but ultimately you need professional advice.

Go to a bike shop, have your bike assessed for damage and get a report. Even if there's no visible damage, a bike shop will be reluctant to give a carbon bike a clean bill of health after a crash. Whether or not you use it again will be a risk assessment you will have to make based on what they say to you. Whether or not you can use the frame again is the least of your concerns at the moment.

The damage to you will need to be assessed also. This is likely to be of most significance in the insurance claim. Again, your solicitor will be able to arrange any additional medical examinations that are required in addition to those you have already had.

When you are fixed up, ride a bike. A mountain bike would be a good place to start, off road.

You won't ever feel quite as safe on a bike. You will more assiduously avoid A-roads, busy times etc. You will be jumpy in and around traffic for some time to come. If you don't want to ride on the roads again at all, that's a perfectly acceptable conclusion, but a decision only you can make. It is so soon after the incident that you probably need to defer such thoughts for the time being.

gabriel959

Great advice from First Aspect. Nothing else to say really.

bing gordon

First Aspect wrote:

Brace yourself for a long process. If you see any compensation within a year you will be doing well.

There will have to be a claim against the driver's insurance. You will need a solicitor. Perhaps have one appointed via your house insurance, or go to CTC website and find one there. You will be able to appoint a solicitor without incurring any up front costs. When you eventually receive a payout, the solicitor will receive a fee from the insurers separately and this will not concern you or be relevant to the amount you receive.

Take your solicitor's advice. The commuting chat thread is helpful to set expectations, but ultimately you need professional advice.

Go to a bike shop, have your bike assessed for damage and get a report. Even if there's no visible damage, a bike shop will be reluctant to give a carbon bike a clean bill of health after a crash. Whether or not you use it again will be a risk assessment you will have to make based on what they say to you. Whether or not you can use the frame again is the least of your concerns at the moment.

The damage to you will need to be assessed also. This is likely to be of most significance in the insurance claim. Again, your solicitor will be able to arrange any additional medical examinations that are required in addition to those you have already had.

When you are fixed up, ride a bike. A mountain bike would be a good place to start, off road.

You won't ever feel quite as safe on a bike. You will more assiduously avoid A-roads, busy times etc. You will be jumpy in and around traffic for some time to come. If you don't want to ride on the roads again at all, that's a perfectly acceptable conclusion, but a decision only you can make. It is so soon after the incident that you probably need to defer such thoughts for the time being.

Thanks some good advise there, thankyou. The Police officer did say the guy admitted to him (when he breath tested him) "I just never saw him, it was my fault". I was on the roundabout and had passed his junction to come onto the roundabout when he rammed my back wheel. But like anything else, as I have found out with 2 car accidents none of which were my fault. What they say on the day/spur of the moment is never what they say after the event once they've had time, get home weigh up what bull crap they can think off.
I know I'm lucky to be alive , for sure, I'm not after bundles of cash compensation for injuries as such, I just want my bike sorted but will I ever ride it again on a road ? that's another matter, after about 18-20 years of road biking and at the age I am and the way I feel right now ?, I strongly doubt it.thanks.

bing gordon

Oh and he never once came across to see how I was while I was lying face down in the road but he did rub the back of mmy head before driving off and a quick one worder "Sorry"

haydenm

As a follow up to my post up there, probably irrelevant after First Aspect's post but it might be useful all the same. My girlfriend just asked the girl I mentioned how it was dealt with in her case and she said something along the lines of this:

The woman who was driving's insurance is paying because she accepted liability, the police found her guilty of dangerous driving her insurance is liable to pay for the bike, clothes, anything damaged in the crash and including physio, expenses occurred as a result of the accident and compensation for my injuries.

She did have her bike insured through her house insurance but they only pay out in theft, if the damage was her fault, or the accident had no blameworthy party.

First.Aspect

The police will prepare their own report, and decide whether to charge the driver or not. Its possible to be guilty of careless driving in principle, but for it not to be referred to prosecution because the consequences were not severe enough. Don't get too fixated about any criminal process, because ultimately I'm afraid its not all that much to do with you. Crazy, but there you go. The best you can do is make sure that its factually accurate, because the insurers will refer to it.

You will be taking up a separate civil case, based on the balance of probabilities.

Your video and GPS evidence will probably be very useful here. Together with other facts about the collision, such as where on your bike was hit, where you were in the junction etc., what the driver actually says may well turn out to be largely irrelevant.

I've had two such incidents in recent years, one, as you can see from my avatar, rather severe. In that case, the driver seemed to accept liability initially, then seems to have run something of a "he came from nowhere" argument later when charged. This turned out not to matter in the slightest, because of the incontestable circumstances of the collision. i.e. He pulled from a minor road across a larger road into the side of another vehicle and there was simply no way that anyone but him could have been at fault. I guess he was just trying to avoid the nine points and hefty insurance premiums.

In the second, where an old lady managed to do a 3 point turn over my front wheel, she downright lied, her husband backed her up and a police officer took it all in. In fact, that policeman actually helped them out by inventing a hill that I was racing down and increasing all the distances by a factor of three. He got a reprimand, but that is another story.

Even then, I had GPS data and a couple of quick photos and videos taken immediately after the accident, showing the car at 75 degrees to the road on top of my wheel. This was considered by her insurers to be completely conclusive because there just wasn't a credible explanation in which anyone else could be to blame other than the driver.

With a bit of luck, you will find that this applies to your situation.

surrey_commuter

Keep all your receipts for expenses incurred as a result of your injuries - such as taxis you would not usually have taken.

effillo

As far as the frame goes you can scan/x Ray/ ultrasound carbon fibre frames to look for any areas of weakness, de-lam, cracks etc. This is routinely done in Motorsport/aerospace on a regular basis.

Not sure of any companies that offer this service specifically but I'd assume and company that repairs carbon frames will have this facility.

Rigga

How do the pro teams get on when the riders crash their 15k carbon bikes? They surely don't just lob them in the bin and go get a new one do they? I wonder if they test the integrity of the frame somehow?
Anyway sorry to hear about your accident op, but at least you're ok. Good luck with the claim etc.

bing gordon

Thanks all for you thoughts and previous know how , I am reading and definitely taking it all in. The video shows the car on the left approach the junction way back. It's then lost the footage as I'm bearing to the right so pointing away from the car. It's a two lane entrance , one for turning left one for joining the roundabout.
I'm hit from behind as I have past both broken give way lines to my left. I'm about 4-6yard past as I am going to take the next left.
There is one piece of footage were someone picks my bike up to move it to the railings and it shows were there car stopped, it looks like his back wheels are just touching the line I end up about 15ft in front of his car. I don't think the guy knows I had a camera and I will keep quite for now just to see what he says.
The more I look at the footage I just hope he has the sense to admit it and make it less painful for us both. The officer in question is off till Monday so it's Southern Comfort, tall glass and ice for the weekend and bullux to it for now.

One thing I've learn as Ive got older is patience and weigh the job up with alcohol :-
thankyou all for your thought's , I will keep you updated as I learn more.

bing gordon

Rigga wrote:

How do the pro teams get on when the riders crash their 15k carbon bikes? They surely don't just lob them in the bin and go get a new one do they? I wonder if they test the integrity of the frame somehow?
Anyway sorry to hear about your accident op, but at least you're ok. Good luck with the claim etc.

Good question , I would like to know were they keep their bin though

andcp

effillo wrote:

As far as the frame goes you can scan/x Ray/ ultrasound carbon fibre frames to look for any areas of weakness, de-lam, cracks etc. This is routinely done in Motorsport/aerospace on a regular basis.

Not sure of any companies that offer this service specifically but I'd assume and company that repairs carbon frames will have this facility.

Ultrasound and X-ray are the best bet for checking for any potential conditions and should be able to spot any really significant 'issues'. However...... unless you know how the frame was originally manufactured, it may be a fairly futile exercise as you will not know how the internal structure is supposed look.

Most good independent NDT (non-destructive testing) companies should be able to provide a reasonable stab at X-ray, but as above, unless you know the internal structure/geometry/lay up, ultrasound would be more difficult to perform meaningfully.

I doubt that many companies who repair CF will have facilities for NDT but they should know where to find them.

effillo

Rigga wrote:

How do the pro teams get on when the riders crash their 15k carbon bikes? They surely don't just lob them in the bin and go get a new one do they? I wonder if they test the integrity of the frame somehow?
Anyway sorry to hear about your accident op, but at least you're ok. Good luck with the claim etc.

See my post above yours for explaination.

gozzy

bing gordon wrote:

Rigga wrote:

How do the pro teams get on when the riders crash their 15k carbon bikes? They surely don't just lob them in the bin and go get a new one do they? I wonder if they test the integrity of the frame somehow?
Anyway sorry to hear about your accident op, but at least you're ok. Good luck with the claim etc.

Good question , I would like to know were they keep their bin though

£15k retail frames most likely don't cost that much for the manufacturers or the teams.

bing gordon

I paid a visit to buy-a-bike in Chorley and they said don't bother with it it's not worth it , get another frame or bike. I just had a call from the brother of the guy who knocked me off. He said it shook his brother up pretty bad as he's never had an accident and he'll buy me a new bike. I explained it's far too expensive and it will have to go through his insurance.

Funny really as I never gave him my home number (rarely do) and he never thought to ask how i was so I think I know which route this is going to head down.

First.Aspect

bing gordon wrote:

I paid a visit to buy-a-bike in Chorley and they said don't bother with it it's not worth it , get another frame or bike. I just had a call from the brother of the guy who knocked me off. He said it shook his brother up pretty bad as he's never had an accident and he'll buy me a new bike. I explained it's far too expensive and it will have to go through his insurance.

Funny really as I never gave him my home number (rarely do) and he never thought to ask how i was so I think I know which route this is going to head down.

Do not, and I really mean do NOT let the guy avoid an insurance claim. Its insurance fraud apart from anything else (on his part). And you got hurt, a concussion I would guess. He's not offering to pay you anything for that, is he?

As for the bike shop - one way or another you need a proper assessment of the damage, and a report. Most good bike shops will do this for about £20.

wishitwasallflat

Contact Leigh Day solicitors and let them handle it all for you. I got hit in similar circumstances four months ago on my commute. I dont think I will ever cycle commute again but will ride for pleasure on rural roads once I recover and can. Get well soon and get a solicitor to handle it all for you.

bing gordon

Thats the hardest bit for me one is choosing the right Solicitor, I never get things like this right

keef66

Well take the recommendation above and contact Leigh Day

bing gordon

I only asked because I've never used a personal injury Solicitor before so I no idea who pays what and what percentage they take if you win.
I spoke with Slater & Gordon (not signed anything) but the young lad was talking at 900 mile an hr to the point I had to ask him to slow down a touch.

Sorry for been so naive, how does it all work and who pays who ?