How to train for 15%+ hills

jd843

Hi

I like hills (sometimes), but when they get to more than 15%, I struggle. I can cope with a constant 12/13% in my easiest gear (34/28), but higher than that for any longer than a few seconds and I am considering getting off and walking/my legs turn to jelly/my heart rate is scarily high.

So is this strength/power I'm lacking? Would low cadence intervals help in training for hills like this?

Spartacus1981

I think everyone finds once your into to double figures on the hills, they feel much harder (and are) ... Like anything else I think the answer here would be ride up more steeper hills, and if you can be bothered, be lighter. This will help you quite a bit with less weight on your body but like someone just mentioned on another post, you don't need a Froome physique or one of a 12 year old to ride in the UK necessarily. Most hills aren't that long anyway.

Personally I like the good life too much to be bothered with dieting. Though I'm sure I could be a lot better if I was to drop some KG's. Basically your other option is to just hit them hard when you do !! You will improve this way.

A friend and I did a 220 mile ride on Saturday which was ridiculous. Needless to say every little rise at the end hurt whether it was 2% or 25% and we ground our way up them at the end. Just ride them more and ramp up the effort when you do.

chrisaonabike

Until you're confident that you can get up it, it will instil fear.

Get into the lowest gear you have before the slope starts to increase, and ride up the hill as slowly as you can without falling off.

It only wins if you have to stop, so as soon as you know it can't make you do that, there will be no more fear. At that point you can make sensible decisions about gearing and pace.

imposter2.0

The steeper the hill, the more gravity plays a part. Power v weight and your own aerobic threshold are the main factors, so work on improving those. Nothing to do with strength as such.

maryka

Try a lower cassette, maybe a 12-30? That's what I use for the very steep stuff. I find my power drops and my perceived effort increases once my cadence drops below about 75rpm in seated climbing (I prefer to sit instead of stand up unless it's very short or the steep bit is only quite short, 30 secs or less). Having the gears to spin up feels much better, I hate grinding up a steep climb.

Lookyhere

maryka wrote:

Try a lower cassette, maybe a 12-30? That's what I use for the very steep stuff. I find my power drops and my perceived effort increases once my cadence drops below about 75rpm in seated climbing (I prefer to sit instead of stand up unless it's very short or the steep bit is only quite short, 30 secs or less). Having the gears to spin up feels much better, I hate grinding up a steep climb.

hi, what if it is a one off, say something like Bank in Matlock, perhaps a sprint up it in October !!! would seated still be the best way and low gears?

maryka

That's what works for me! I will put on a specific cassette for that climb for sure. It's all personal but I'm most efficient as a climber when I sit and only stand up and sprint for the last 20-30 secs or when it flattens out.

supermurph09

I think there is some evidence in your post about why you find it difficult "heart rate scarily high", if you are worried about that then the chances are you aren't focusing on the job in hand. Hills of 15% are hard, especially if your confidence is low about your chances of getting up them. At 15% for any distance it's usually a case of finding a pace that you can cope with, too hard at the bottom and you'll just crumble anyway.

webboo

jd843 wrote:

Hi

I like hills (sometimes), but when they get to more than 15%, I struggle. I can cope with a constant 12/13% in my easiest gear (34/28), but higher than that for any longer than a few seconds and I am considering getting off and walking/my legs turn to jelly/my heart rate is scarily high.

So is this strength/power I'm lacking? Would low cadence intervals help in training for hills like this?

Try riding the shorter 12/13% hills in say 34/25 early on in a ride. This should help you build some power or ride laps on them.

lukesween

I struggle with the same. Can power through short, steep ones but longer climbs, especially longerika, double digit climbs it ruins me.
As the first reply said, just returned out and ride them more. A friend of mine goes out for about 30 minutes a week just up and down on a single, horrible climb to get better. It really shows too. I need to follow suit

sungod

you don't mention what cadence you're at when it happens, but if you're stalling at 15% in 34/28 with heart racing i'd guess you need to work on cardiovascular fitness

that means regular high-intensity exercise, umpteen ways to do that, some here...

http://www.cptips.com/trnoptn.htm

zoomer42

More power in the pins will help to. Get on a turbo with the Game of thrones box set, stick it in a horrendous gear and don't stop pedaling until series 3.

phreak

Without wishing to diminish the other contributions, I believe maryka is something of a wizard going up hill, and a multiple hill climb champion, so I'd personally follow her guidance.

maryka

Ha ha, well I'll just say that climbing hills, especially steep hills, is very personal and what works for some won't work for others. Some need to stand up, some prefer sitting down. Yes getting fitter and stronger is what you want to do, but that doesn't mean hills will be that much easier unless you figure out what works for you.

I like it sit, it's how I'm strongest and most efficient, and I need the gears to spin at 75+rpm to put out a lot of power. Others don't need the gears as they can stand and grind it out at low RPM and put out lots of power that way.

n=1 and all that. But don't be afraid to try different stuff, there's no heroism in grinding up in a huge gear or MTFUing if you actually don't get up the hill any quicker and you're hurting your knees in the process.

davidof

jd843 wrote:

Hi

I like hills (sometimes), but when they get to more than 15%, I struggle.

You want to avoid riding in Italy then

diy

You don't mention anything about fitness levels and weight.

If you are pushing your heart scarily high and you are possibly overweight and not particularly fit, then you may well be risking something serious.

As others have said, if you can lose some weight and need to, then that is the place to start.
Secondly, you have to find a pace that you can manage which isn't with your heart much beyond zone 4.
then you can look at tabata/interval training to quickly improve your Vo2Max.

but before all of that - make sure your seat is up high enough.. makes a big difference

StillGoing

Find the technique that works for you, be it sitting, standing or a combination of both. Don't race up to get it over and done with, but settle on a pace you can sustain for the duration of the climb. If you get to halfway or 2/3s of the way up and still feel good, you can up the pace a bit for the finish to the peak. Don't try keeping up with others and simply do your own thing. I get people I ride with racing into hills leaving me for dead, only for them to fatigue halfway up and struggle to the top. Meanwhile I just roll by them in a much better state and recovering quicker. I also try to keep a good cadence rather than grinding out gears.

cycleclinic

That picture on an italian road reminds me of a 13km climb where large parts of it where 15% (well it felt like large parts of it where) the thing is I was on suffolk gearing 41/27T was the lowest gear (poor planning on my part). Standing up for 1hr grinding at 40 rpm while I climbed this hill is quite memorable.

If you want to deal with hills this is what I do. do hill repeats in a tall gear at low cadence a bit below FTP. I pick a 5 minute hill and grind. the last pass is at higher cadence as fast as I can go. Also do rides in higher gears. I do this alot and while 15% gradients are difficult they are doable without resorting to a really low gear. This is something that can be worked on. Gravity though is relentless it simply drains you.

Also the trend to suggest spin your way up does not work for everyone either. When I do that I tend to find I go up slower. I tend to quickest up a hill if my cadence is around 55-60 rpm on anything up to about 10% average. I do spinny work (you have to to train high power outputs). Low cadence work develops the leg strength. Cadence intervals allows you to turn that leg strength into high power outputs.

imposter2.0

thecycleclinic wrote:

Low cadence work develops the leg strength. Cadence intervals allows you to turn that leg strength into high power outputs.

It has already been pointed out to you (on a different thread) that leg strength is not a limiter in climbing - or pretty much any other aspect of cycling performance.

steoroc

There's a climb I've done a few times, 4km@10% but there's close to a kilometer of that at about 4-5% so the steep stuff is more like 15% average with Garmin reading 30+ on the hairpins.
My fitness has improved substantially in the past 2 years but I made very little improvement on that climb until I focused on my leg strength. 25 seconds in 2 years, 2 minutes in the past 2 months.
On regular climbs below 10% it's been steady improvement in relation to my fitness but the really steep stuff needs stronger legs too.

drlodge

What works for some might not work for you, my advice is:
- to be good at something, practice it.
- I find it easier to conserve energy if I'm seated, this means having a low enough gear to be able to stay seated for the maximum time possible. I'm using 34x29 as my bottom gear and I can now stay seated for nearly all of Whitedown (18%).
- Try and take it easy and keep your heart rate down. I will try and keep it under 160 if I can, as above that I know I'm burning reserves which might be needed when the climb gets really tough. Its all about energy management.
- I found there is a knack to climbing out of the saddle without pushing too hard, but it takes practice. You can try this on shallow ascents by choosing a higher gear and standing in the pedals but just put in a normal effort to get used to the position.
- If I'm tiring and the slope isn't too steep, a combination of standing/seated/standing/seated etc every 30 seconds or so helps to relieve muscle groups.

diy

I used to think grinding was the way to attack hills and improve my ability, until I looked at my data and realised I simply wasn't optimising my cardio ability. I think in many ways we are like engines, there is a point where we can produce the optimum bhp/torque and if you go too high or low, you simply wont get the best.

dennisn

davidof wrote:

jd843 wrote:

Hi

I like hills (sometimes), but when they get to more than 15%, I struggle.

You want to avoid riding in Italy then

Yeeeeeooooowwww.

milemuncher1

Deleted

milemuncher1

deleted

milemuncher1

jd843 wrote:

Hi

I like hills (sometimes), but when they get to more than 15%, I struggle. I can cope with a constant 12/13% in my easiest gear (34/28), but higher than that for any longer than a few seconds and I am considering getting off and walking/my legs turn to jelly/my heart rate is scarily high.

So is this strength/power I'm lacking? Would low cadence intervals help in training for hills like this?

You need to increase your Lactate threshold / lactate inflection point.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactate_threshold


http://www.bicycling.com/training/fitne ... eshold-101

Read all about it.
Once you get that right, by specific threshold training, and going up the steepest hills you can find, repeatedly, the hills will get easier.

cycleclinic

Well my coach thinks differently as do i. Just because there is recieved wisdom on something does not mean it true. Otherwise how did i do the climbs on the south downs way on a single speed (62") quicker than people spinning up them?

Also think about it if you can apply more torque at a given rpm (that is leg strength) then you can develop more power. 75 to 80 rpm is not that high to develop 300+w at that rpm requires a fair ammount of torque.

The op has to do hill repeats on hills which allow higher power outputs at ftp or above for 5 minutes. Whether you do it at low cadance or moderate cadance is up to you (i do both) is upto you, i would maintain a healthy cycling diet requires a mix of work rather than sticking to spinning all the time. That will improve your performance. A bigger cog at the back will help toofor the really steep climbs.

Also low cadance is only grinding if you are struglling. Fastest climbing does not come at low cadance it come at higher cadance (for me at around 60 to 70 rpm). For others it will be higher still.

The point made above about optimium range of rpm for power is true the thing is varies depending on your muscle fibre types and leg length. It varies from 60 rpm to 120 rpm so you have to experiment to find what works best for you hense the mixed diet.

imposter2.0

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well my coach thinks differently as do i. Just because there is recieved wisdom on something does not mean it true. Otherwise how did i do the climbs on the south downs way on a single speed (62") quicker than people spinning up them?

Maybe because you were fitter than them? Received wisdom doesn't make it true, but a better understanding of the science generally does.

thecycleclinic wrote:

Also think about it if you can apply more torque at a given rpm (that is leg strength) then you can develop more power. 75 to 80 rpm is not that high to develop 300+w at that rpm requires a fair ammount of torque.

You are right, it is leg strength which enables you to apply more force, but it is not very much leg strength. In fact, it is no more leg strength than most untrained people already have. The forces involved are very very low. The key differentiator, as you say, is sustainable power.

thecycleclinic wrote:

The point made above about optimium range of rpm for power is true the thing is varies depending on your muscle fibre types and leg length. It varies from 60 rpm to 120 rpm so you have to experiment to find what works best for you hense the mixed diet.

Have a look at some of the numerous other discussions on leg strength, as the topic has been done to death on here. Studies generally show that the average pedal forces involved in riding up a major alpine col during a tour stage are something like 12-15kg per side, a level of force application which is already well within the capability of almost anyone. Certainly not much when you consider that if you hop up and down on one leg, you are already supporting practically your entire bodyweight on a single leg - which is probably closer to 70-80kg (other body weights are available). Like I say, leg strength is really not what the limiting factor is. Sustainable power, threshold and aerobic capacity are the limiters, not strength.

milemuncher1

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well my coach thinks differently as do i. Just because there is recieved wisdom on something does not mean it true. Otherwise how did i do the climbs on the south downs way on a single speed (62") quicker than people spinning up them?

Also think about it if you can apply more torque at a given rpm (that is leg strength) then you can develop more power. 75 to 80 rpm is not that high to develop 300+w at that rpm requires a fair ammount of torque.

The op has to do hill repeats on hills which allow higher power outputs at ftp or above for 5 minutes. Whether you do it at low cadance or moderate cadance is up to you (i do both) is upto you, i would maintain a healthy cycling diet requires a mix of work rather than sticking to spinning all the time. That will improve your performance. A bigger cog at the back will help toofor the really steep climbs.

Also low cadance is only grinding if you are struglling. Fastest climbing does not come at low cadance it come at higher cadance (for me at around 60 to 70 rpm). For others it will be higher still.

The point made above about optimium range of rpm for power is true the thing is varies depending on your muscle fibre types and leg length. It varies from 60 rpm to 120 rpm so you have to experiment to find what works best for you hense the mixed diet.

.

Ha haaaa. You asked a question, I answered it ( with actual facts, and many years of experience) and then you come out with ^^^^^ that. Some people

ForumNewbie

Imposter wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well my coach thinks differently as do i. Just because there is recieved wisdom on something does not mean it true. Otherwise how did i do the climbs on the south downs way on a single speed (62") quicker than people spinning up them?

Maybe because you were fitter than them? Received wisdom doesn't make it true, but a better understanding of the science generally does.

thecycleclinic wrote:

Also think about it if you can apply more torque at a given rpm (that is leg strength) then you can develop more power. 75 to 80 rpm is not that high to develop 300+w at that rpm requires a fair ammount of torque.

You are right, it is leg strength which enables you to apply more force, but it is not very much leg strength. In fact, it is no more leg strength than most untrained people already have. The forces involved are very very low. The key differentiator, as you say, is sustainable power.

thecycleclinic wrote:

The point made above about optimium range of rpm for power is true the thing is varies depending on your muscle fibre types and leg length. It varies from 60 rpm to 120 rpm so you have to experiment to find what works best for you hense the mixed diet.

Have a look at some of the numerous other discussions on leg strength, as the topic has been done to death on here. Studies generally show that the average pedal forces involved in riding up a major alpine col during a tour stage are something like 12-15kg per side, a level of force application which is already well within the capability of almost anyone. Certainly not much when you consider that if you hop up and down on one leg, you are already supporting practically your entire bodyweight on a single leg - which is probably closer to 70-80kg (other body weights are available). Like I say, leg strength is really not what the limiting factor is. Sustainable power, threshold and aerobic capacity are the limiters, not strength.

I'm in my late 50s and not that fit but I also feel that I've got poor leg strength as I struggle to push moderately big gears at a decent cadence unless I've got a tailwind or on a slight decline. I'm 5'8" and 70kg so not overweight, but I see other cyclists who appear a lot heavier and also not very fit, but are able to push bigger gears at higher cadence.

If you have two cyclists the same size and weight and the same level of fitness, would the one with stronger legs not be able to cycle faster?

milemuncher1

ForumNewbie wrote:

I'm in my late 50s and not that fit but I also feel that I've got poor leg strength as I struggle to push moderately big gears at a decent cadence unless I've got a tailwind or on a slight decline. I'm 5'8" and 70kg so not overweight, but I see other cyclists who appear a lot heavier and also not very fit, but are able to push bigger gears at higher cadence.

If you have two cyclists the same size and weight and the same level of fitness, would the one with stronger legs not be able to cycle faster?

No, the one who better understands how to use the available leg strength, more efficiently ( better power balance between left and right legs for example) will cycle faster.
Watt Bike did an experiment involving people using their Watt Bikes, with varying degrees of experience, but with broadly similar fitness levels, and leg strength. The power distribution graphs seemed to be the defining factor. That is to say, people with smoother graphs, on the left and right pedals, who showed closer to 50 / 50 distribution, cycles faster. Rather than the '"lumpy flappy birds", who may have had the ability to develop similar power, but didn't have the "Suplesse" of the more experienced riders.