Engerlaaand!

DeVlaeminck

The Premier League has to take a lot of the blame, no English managers to choose from, young English players can't get a game finding their progression blocked at a key stage in their career. Then add in an FA that is more interested in choosing a manager that wont upset the blazers rather than someone who can motivate a group of young millionaire footballers and we end up where we are.

mr_goo

Just a thought on any match England play. How much is it a disadvantage that we are English? Given that at least a handful of any opposition are likely to speak English. Surely this already puts the team on the backfoot when organising tactics on the pitch.

pblakeney

awavey wrote:

...and who as an England manager goes into a game against Iceland with a pre-prepared resignation speech ?

I had that same thought this morning.
About as damning a statement about the level of confidence in the team as you are likely to get.

mr_goo

PBlakeney wrote:

awavey wrote:

...and who as an England manager goes into a game against Iceland with a pre-prepared resignation speech ?

I had that same thought this morning.
About as damning a statement about the level of confidence in the team as you are likely to get.

Speaks volumes doesn't it.
I don't recall seeing Woy on the touchline shouting instructions and getting animated, just sat there looking like a very haunted, isolated individual. Conte of Italy in comparison was up and down like a whores drawers, shouting, screaming, jumping around. That is the kind of coach I would like to see at England. Passionate.

joe2008

Unfortunately I'm not a betting man...

CiB

Iceland seem to have prospered with a team of part-time dentists & Championship + League One footballers. Time for us to do the same. How can it be worse to pick the finest right back Ipswich have to offer, and pair him with that ginger bloke from the MK Dons? Why pick Kane as a centre forward then have him take corners & free-kicks, and when he he does have a golden chance to equalise plants a soft header straight into the keeper's welcoming palms, or blasts a free-kick closer to the corner flag than the target? Huth did it [Leicester v Stoke, January, 3 nil up, what a larf] and it didn't matter. Kane is The Answer apparently; it's not so funny then. I'd like to know what the question was if he is the answer.

It's a foooking shambles, and yet again for the millionth time since I watched us get knocked out in Mexico 1970 we've regressed even further to the point now where it's no longer any surprise to see such abject incompetence, and worse, with each successive failure it hardly matters now. Rooney stumbling over his sentences telling us that we'll pick ourselves up and learn is utter bollox. Learn what? Learn how to ease through qualifying for the next WC then scrape out of the group stages and lose the first knockout match, again, like we do every two years? 46 years of learning has led us precisely nowhere. Foook off Rooney, and Kane. And The FA.

joe2008

How many English players get to play top level football every week in England?

This squad, Danny Drinkwater, and there must be a couple more who I don't recall.

How many British players play top level football abroad?

Gareth Bale.

There's the problem.

pblakeney

joe2008 wrote:

How many English players get to play top level football every week in England?

This squad, Danny Drinkwater, and there must be a couple more who I don't recall.

How many British players play top level football abroad?

Gareth Bale.

There's the problem.

How dare you try to burst the bubble!
"We have the best league in the World, ergo we are the best team in the World".

Anonymous

CiB wrote:

Iceland seem to have prospered with a team of part-time dentists & Championship + League One footballers. Time for us to do the same. How can it be worse to pick the finest right back Ipswich have to offer, and pair him with that ginger bloke from the MK Dons? Why pick Kane as a centre forward then have him take corners & free-kicks, and when he he does have a golden chance to equalise plants a soft header straight into the keeper's welcoming palms, or blasts a free-kick closer to the corner flag than the target? Huth did it [Leicester v Stoke, January, 3 nil up, what a larf] and it didn't matter. Kane is The Answer apparently; it's not so funny then. I'd like to know what the question was if he is the answer.

It's a foooking shambles, and yet again for the millionth time since I watched us get knocked out in Mexico 1970 we've regressed even further to the point now where it's no longer any surprise to see such abject incompetence, and worse, with each successive failure it hardly matters now. Rooney stumbling over his sentences telling us that we'll pick ourselves up and learn is utter bollox. Learn what? Learn how to ease through qualifying for the next WC then scrape out of the group stages and lose the first knockout match, again, like we do every two years? 46 years of learning has led us precisely nowhere. Foook off Rooney, and Kane. And The FA.

IMO Harry Kane should never pull on an England shirt again. He looked devoid of confidence or ability in every match and in a few of the friendly games before hand.

In the rest of the team, they always looked so static. I watched the Italy vs Spaingame earlier and there was so much movement off the ball for the Italians. They always gave options and at one point it was as though they had more men on the pitch than Spain as they covered it so well. England seem to receive the ball under duress and without a thought as to what to do once they had it. It would then either be panic passed to no one in particular or they would be closed down as they bumbled looking for a pass. Why? Cos nobody moved to make themselves available. The last few minutes summed it up well. Hart has the ball and the perfectchance to launch an attack and 5 England players are walking slowly away. Nobody is busting a gut to make a run or a counter attack.

Again back to Italy. Conte is bouncing and shouting on the touchline screaming orders at the team. Roy Hodgson stands there rubbing his chin like an old man who has had a brain fart and can't quite remember how he got there or what he was doing.

England lacked drive passion or desire to do anything. Nobody was seen trying to urge on the fans or screaming at team mates to urge them on. No Stuart Pearce type leadership.

The biggest insult is these are all premier league players. Teams like Wales and Iceland are playing at a lower standard of league and they are outplaying out passing out thinking us and showing heart and desire. Germany have Podolski in their squad as well as Schweinsteiger who neither had great seasons but they know how to perform in the national team. We always seem to pick an England team based on form as if they were a cricket team. We never pick a team based on how they fit a system or how they gel with fellow players within that system. 11 good players do not always make a team. Greece provved that a decade ago. Denmark before that.

CiB

joe2008 wrote:

How many English players get to play top level football every week in England?

This squad, Danny Drinkwater, and there must be a couple more who I don't recall.

How many British players play top level football abroad?

Gareth Bale.

There's the problem.

You don't need to have the best players in the world playing in the best leagues in the world, you need a manager with some tactical nous who can read the game and react to it, and players who have some semblance of team ethos. Leicester won the PL with a few very good players, two are top drawer [Mahrez, Kante] but they're a team which is essentially journeyman players. They managed it. Iceland seemed to do ok in this tournament.

It'd be nice to see England win a tournament once before I die but I'd settle for them putting in half-decent performances like in 86, 90, 96 and playing in a way that leaves us thinking well that wasn't bad, shame but there yer go. It'd be better than this bi-annual wtf was all that about? that we go through, when 'exciting talented young players of a golden generation' play like a bunch of strangers who recently converted to football from some other sport..

Pross

DeVlaeminck wrote:

The Premier League has to take a lot of the blame, no English managers to choose from, young English players can't get a game finding their progression blocked at a key stage in their career. Then add in an FA that is more interested in choosing a manager that wont upset the blazers rather than someone who can motivate a group of young millionaire footballers and we end up where we are.

Don't worry, this will all be sorted now we've got our country back and will stop those Johnny Foreigners coming in and taking our places in the top teams.

CiB

Maglia Rosa wrote:

In the rest of the team, they always looked so static. I watched the Italy vs Spaingame earlier and there was so much movement off the ball for the Italians. They always gave options and at one point it was as though they had more men on the pitch than Spain as they covered it so well. England seem to receive the ball under duress and without a thought as to what to do once they had it. It would then either be panic passed to no one in particular or they would be closed down as they bumbled looking for a pass. Why? Cos nobody moved to make themselves available. The last few minutes summed it up well. Hart has the ball and the perfectchance to launch an attack and 5 England players are walking slowly away. Nobody is busting a gut to make a run or a counter attack.

It's not just movement, it's basic ability. Watch them - how many times does a simple pass to feet require two touches as the first has allowed the ball to bounce up to knee height so it needs to be brought back under control? How many times do we see a simple pass go just behind the receiver, so he has to move back to collect the ball? Germany France Italy etc don't do that - it's ball to feet, first touch is crisp & accurate. Confidence was mentioned - passing sideways & backwards is what MU were doing in the trough of their season just gone; it's meaningless possession that doesn't gain any ground and like you say with no movement off the ball the options dry up.

You don't need to play in the top leagues to have a grasp of the basics. This lot haven't displayed any evidence that doing the simple things really well is a good start point.

joe2008

Pross wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

The Premier League has to take a lot of the blame, no English managers to choose from, young English players can't get a game finding their progression blocked at a key stage in their career. Then add in an FA that is more interested in choosing a manager that wont upset the blazers rather than someone who can motivate a group of young millionaire footballers and we end up where we are.

Don't worry, this will all be sorted now we've got our country back and will stop those Johnny Foreigners coming in and taking our places in the top teams.

Yep, Bosman won't have a leg to stand on.

pblakeney

joe2008 wrote:

Pross wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

The Premier League has to take a lot of the blame, no English managers to choose from, young English players can't get a game finding their progression blocked at a key stage in their career. Then add in an FA that is more interested in choosing a manager that wont upset the blazers rather than someone who can motivate a group of young millionaire footballers and we end up where we are.

Don't worry, this will all be sorted now we've got our country back and will stop those Johnny Foreigners coming in and taking our places in the top teams.

Yep, Bosman won't have a leg to stand on.

That is a serious point.
Will all those players have to get visas eventually? Will they bother?

verylonglegs

PBlakeney wrote:

awavey wrote:

...and who as an England manager goes into a game against Iceland with a pre-prepared resignation speech ?

I had that same thought this morning.
About as damning a statement about the level of confidence in the team as you are likely to get.

I'm not Roy's biggest fan by any means but his contract was up so he probably had a speech prepared to use regardless of who we went out too, it just so happens that it was in this round and against Iceland.

pblakeney

verylonglegs wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

awavey wrote:

...and who as an England manager goes into a game against Iceland with a pre-prepared resignation speech ?

I had that same thought this morning.
About as damning a statement about the level of confidence in the team as you are likely to get.

I'm not Roy's biggest fan by any means but his contract was up so he probably had a speech prepared to use regardless of who we went out too, it just so happens that it was in this round and against Iceland.

Did he have two speeches prepared? One in case they won it?
The FA had said his contract would be renewed if he got to the semis. (Quarters with a decent performance).

joe2008

There's a Government Petition in favour of a rematch...

slowmart

Forget about thresholds of ability and creativity.

Reduce it down to a base level of desire, passion and physical bravery. All three where absent in the England team, Roy was effective as Corbyn as leader off the pitch, the granny shagger, equally inept and devoid of leadership on the field.

The granny shagger still offered his services to whoever the England manager will be in the post match interview. What a prize cnut. Absolutely king sized.

schlepcycling

I'm going to have to stick up for Kane, he wasn't just the top English scorer in the last PL season but THE top scorer so he can't be sh*t surely?. The problem is service, he was obviously getting it at Spurs (as was Vardy at Leicester) but not for England and in that regard Hodgson picked the wrong players in midfield, Barkley (who didn't get a game), Wiltshire (who only played 140 minutes all season), Rooney (who suddenly became a midfielder), Milner (mediocre season), Sterling (rubbish since he left Liverpool), why not pick Noble, Drinkwater and Townsend all who had decent seasons. Also Hodgson didn't know his best system and was still tinkering with it in the last warm up game against Portugal where he played a diamond. As has been said by many commentators how can England go into a major tournament not knowing their best team and formation, no other team does that. It was a squad with too many players picked on reputation rather than form and a manager who didn't know who to play where and it showed in every game, even the lucky win against Wales.
It isn't all Kane's fault it's mostly Hodgsons for picking the wrong squad and the FA for giving him 2 more years after the disaster that was Brazil 2014.

neiltb

keep up the good work.

prhymeate

I'm not sure what the problem is, but I think it runs deeper than the manager. It's been the same old story every 4-6 years for my entire life. Fail at a tournament, sack manager, ask the usual questions about foreigners in the league, investment in young players, why we don't copy the style of whoever won the latest tournament, then assign new manager and repeat.

schlepcycling

Prhymeate wrote:

I'm not sure what the problem is, but I think it runs deeper than the manager. It's been the same old story every 4-6 years for my entire life. Fail at a tournament, sack manager, ask the usual questions about foreigners in the league, investment in young players, why we don't copy the style of whoever won the latest tournament, then assign new manager and repeat.

Didn't we do that with the academy system, the problem is that the academy players don't then go on to play for the first team. This is because there's such a clamour for results and success in the PL that young players aren't given the time needed to develop and so they're more often than not sold on to lower leagues teams. What's the betting that if Marcus Rashford doesn't score a hatful of goals for Man U next season he'll be replaced by some expensive, high wage import (unless that's already happened with the imminent arrival of Ibrahimovic).
English clubs want/need domestic success and they are willing to sacrifice the success of the national team by buying in players (usually from overseas) rather than developing them and the irony is that the players they bring in usually end up benefiting from playing in a more competitive league and then become better players when they next play internationally against England.

keef66

schlepcycling wrote:

Prhymeate wrote:

I'm not sure what the problem is, but I think it runs deeper than the manager. It's been the same old story every 4-6 years for my entire life. Fail at a tournament, sack manager, ask the usual questions about foreigners in the league, investment in young players, why we don't copy the style of whoever won the latest tournament, then assign new manager and repeat.

Didn't we do that with the academy system, the problem is that the academy players don't then go on to play for the first team. This is because there's such a clamour for results and success in the PL that young players aren't given the time needed to develop and so they're more often than not sold on to lower leagues teams. What's the betting that if Marcus Rashford doesn't score a hatful of goals for Man U next season he'll be replaced by some expensive, high wage import (unless that's already happened with the imminent arrival of Ibrahimovic).
English clubs want/need domestic success and they are willing to sacrifice the success of the national team by buying in players (usually from overseas) rather than developing them and the irony is that the players they bring in usually end up benefiting from playing in a more competitive league and then become better players when they next play internationally against England.

The Belgian team is a good case in point; I think 9 of their starting 11 play in the Premiership!

prhymeate

schlepcycling wrote:

Didn't we do that with the academy system, the problem is that the academy players don't then go on to play for the first team. This is because there's such a clamour for results and success in the PL that young players aren't given the time needed to develop and so they're more often than not sold on to lower leagues teams. What's the betting that if Marcus Rashford doesn't score a hatful of goals for Man U next season he'll be replaced by some expensive, high wage import (unless that's already happened with the imminent arrival of Ibrahimovic).
English clubs want/need domestic success and they are willing to sacrifice the success of the national team by buying in players (usually from overseas) rather than developing them and the irony is that the players they bring in usually end up benefiting from playing in a more competitive league and then become better players when they next play internationally against England.

I don't think that going to the lower leagues is such a bad thing personally. The Championship is still a very competitive league, probably equal to a lot of the top tier leagues that foreign players initially come from. Maybe more young players should do that and concentrate on playing time, or go abroad, instead of their agents trying to grab the biggest contract they can to just sit on the bench. If/when they are good enough to compete with some of the best in the world then they will get signed up.

I do think there are good intentions behind the homegrown rules, although I don't think they really work in their current state. Teams are so desperate to get English players in to meet the requirements that they end up being valued way above their foreign equivalent. However, if that's the path the FA want to take to improve the England team then the rules should be changed so that only players eligible for the England team are considered homegrown. Instead you have players like Fabregas classed as a homegrown player, what use is that.

I don't know what the answer to the problem is. I'm just tired of the same old tournament experience, especially on this of all weeks.

bristolpete

Lots of conjecture here and most if not all valid. One thing I have been thinking about is that yes, stats add up in so much the key players and the key managers within the Premier league are not English, but there are some reasonably average players. However, I think one thing no one has mentioned here or in the UK media is that the whipping boys of yesteryear do no exist anymore, because even 'average' international players now earn a living in the upper echelons of European football and thus, play a better standard of football, in turn taking that onto the world stage. So, teams like Iceland, Hungary, Slovakia etc are no longer getting hammered game in, game out and this in turn has shown a team like England to perform and reflect who they truly are and the level at which they can compete. Iceland were simply better than England. There are parallels within cycling and the often mused 'marginal gains' brought into the sport by SKY. They moved the goal posts and the other teams moved with them. Football has been similar.

England, as a footballing nation have never evolved, moved on or simply got better, despite the post tournament rhetoric wheeled out once again. The best we have mustered since 66 is a semi final at the worlds in 1990 the Euro's in 1996. Personally, I watched it was mildly upset but then realised I have enjoyed watching Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland and to a point Wales more.

verylonglegs

bristolpete wrote:

Lots of conjecture here and most if not all valid. One thing I have been thinking about is that yes, stats add up in so much the key players and the key managers within the Premier league are not English, but there are some reasonably average players. However, I think one thing no one has mentioned here or in the UK media is that the whipping boys of yesteryear do no exist anymore, because even 'average' international players now earn a living in the upper echelons of European football and thus, play a better standard of football, in turn taking that onto the world stage. So, teams like Iceland, Hungary, Slovakia etc are no longer getting hammered game in, game out and this in turn has shown a team like England to perform and reflect who they truly are and the level at which they can compete. There are parallels within cycling and the often mused 'marginal gains' brought into the sport by SKY. They moved the goal posts and the other teams moved with them. Football has been similar.

England, as a footballing nation have never evolved, moved on or simply got better, despite the post tournament rhetoric wheeled out once again. The best we have mustered since 66 is a semi final at the worlds in 1990 the Euro's in 1996. Personally, I watched it was mildly upset but then realised I have enjoyed watching Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland and to a point Wales more.

What you say makes good sense on paper but then Germany walked over the Slovaks, Wales trampled Russia and then what if France turn Iceland over 4-0? What are they doing right that we can't manage?

bristolpete

verylonglegs wrote:

bristolpete wrote:

Lots of conjecture here and most if not all valid. One thing I have been thinking about is that yes, stats add up in so much the key players and the key managers within the Premier league are not English, but there are some reasonably average players. However, I think one thing no one has mentioned here or in the UK media is that the whipping boys of yesteryear do no exist anymore, because even 'average' international players now earn a living in the upper echelons of European football and thus, play a better standard of football, in turn taking that onto the world stage. So, teams like Iceland, Hungary, Slovakia etc are no longer getting hammered game in, game out and this in turn has shown a team like England to perform and reflect who they truly are and the level at which they can compete. There are parallels within cycling and the often mused 'marginal gains' brought into the sport by SKY. They moved the goal posts and the other teams moved with them. Football has been similar.

England, as a footballing nation have never evolved, moved on or simply got better, despite the post tournament rhetoric wheeled out once again. The best we have mustered since 66 is a semi final at the worlds in 1990 the Euro's in 1996. Personally, I watched it was mildly upset but then realised I have enjoyed watching Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland and to a point Wales more.

What you say makes good sense on paper but then Germany walked over the Slovaks, Wales trampled Russia and then what if France turn Iceland over 4-0? What are they doing right that we can't manage?

Because, Germany have been and always will be a tournament team. Simple. Italy too, and in the recent past France. Football at international level is cyclic and of late Spain were top dogs but they have had their day. (ps. I am not expert).

The Wales result likely born out of them watching how to 'do' them. 130 year old defence was waiting for Vardy to destroy them but alas Woy got it wrong. Wales have on the whole been poor IMO too, though the media are loving them. The Germans, the French and the Italians change at grass level when things go wrong but we do not. We simply churn out the rubbish and then appoint people like Gareth Southgate as manager :shock: Alan Shearer has got a lot right about them taking the wrong players. Drinkwater should have started for sure and I would have picked Defoe, irrespective of age. He scores goals.

Pross

Wales haven't been poor, they've just set themselves up to play tournament football I.e. first make sure you don't lose and then try to nick a goal.

finchy

verylonglegs wrote:

bristolpete wrote:

Lots of conjecture here and most if not all valid. One thing I have been thinking about is that yes, stats add up in so much the key players and the key managers within the Premier league are not English, but there are some reasonably average players. However, I think one thing no one has mentioned here or in the UK media is that the whipping boys of yesteryear do no exist anymore, because even 'average' international players now earn a living in the upper echelons of European football and thus, play a better standard of football, in turn taking that onto the world stage. So, teams like Iceland, Hungary, Slovakia etc are no longer getting hammered game in, game out and this in turn has shown a team like England to perform and reflect who they truly are and the level at which they can compete. There are parallels within cycling and the often mused 'marginal gains' brought into the sport by SKY. They moved the goal posts and the other teams moved with them. Football has been similar.

England, as a footballing nation have never evolved, moved on or simply got better, despite the post tournament rhetoric wheeled out once again. The best we have mustered since 66 is a semi final at the worlds in 1990 the Euro's in 1996. Personally, I watched it was mildly upset but then realised I have enjoyed watching Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland and to a point Wales more.

What you say makes good sense on paper but then Germany walked over the Slovaks, Wales trampled Russia and then what if France turn Iceland over 4-0? What are they doing right that we can't manage?

English players spend all season charging about like mad bulls on amphetamines. Then they're expected to do the same thing in the major tournaments, often in far warmer conditions than they are used to. They look drained. We need to think a bit about the way we play the game.

mr_goo

Some good comments and observations from people in football today.

Harry Redknapp's response to suggestions that Gareth Southgate should succeed was damning. Stating that Southgate is part of the FA system that has consistently failed. And also said that winning the Toulon U21s tournament is nothing as it's now a second rate competition.

Dietmar Hamnan's comment on the Premier League was the best. "It's a Skoda being marketed as a Lamborghini."

But the overwhelming sentiment is that England have consistently picked teams based on reputation and never ever on form.

Also you do not need a team to have a world class player in it. You just need good players that work to a system and work for each other. When have we ever seen that over the last 30 to 40 years?

My own thought is, Why does the National team need to have a permanent captain? Again this means that reputation rather than form is the over riding factor in selection.