Planet X Holdsworth steel frame.

ugo.santalucia · May 2016

MikeBrew wrote:

"Ugo compared it to a Legend - why don't it ride like one ?"[/b], just may fail to cut the mustard that The PX refund desk.

You do not understand bicycles. Either you are new to the sport, or you are not interested in the mechanics/dynamics of a bicycle, or, which is a possibility, you are only here to stir things up and throw mud to a selected number of retailers that probably are not on your good book, for a reason or another, which could even be you being on the payroll of a competitor.

I will say it again: if two bicycle frames are made with the same tubings and they have the same geometry and features, the only difference is the colour and the typography and content of the stickers. Who made them is irrelevant, as long as he knows how to join tubes.
I have no evidence whatsoever of a single frame (and more specifically metal frames) sold by Planet X which was not built properly, which is not the case for other, more upmarket brands you might lure after.
So this is my evidence that the frame in question will be very similar, most likely identical (bar the fork which is not the same as) to the Legend we discussed.
I might end up being wrong, but my argument is based on some evidence, while yours is based on a bias and nothing else.

As a matter of fact, I am not quite sure why I waste my time coming down to your level, as I should know very well by now that I can't polish a turd...

darkhairedlord · May 2016

In other news, Mikebrew moans about Planet-x.

hazy_day · May 2016

Looking at one of these frames and currently seem to be good value as they are on special offer. Any thoughts , well made etc. I know there is a big thread on PX pricing but would just like opinions on this frame only.I'm also looking at the Ritchey Logic.

Mike please read the opening post.I referred specifically to the thread you opened on Planet X pricing.requesting that opinions be offered on the frames mentioned or other steel frames. I am not interested in owning a CAAD 12 or Supersix (they are not steel ) as I already have a Synapse Hi Mod. I'm not interested in Ti frames either having previously owned one. I would like to thank Ugo and the other posters who offered opinions on the frames I asked about. I think 7 pages and growing on smoke and mirrors should give anyone that has a gripe with PX pricing strategy (and many of us have) happy. I should add I have bought from PX,Evans, CRC ,Wiggle,Ribble and numerous German and Dutch online retailers as well as LBS quite happily and will probably continue to do so into the future.

bendertherobot · May 2016

Anyhow, the Ritchey Logic is a much better value bike and probably a better bike

hazy_day · May 2016

Thanks I was leaning towards that or a Genesis Volare.

bendertherobot · May 2016

hazy day wrote:

Thanks I was leaning towards that or a Genesis Volare.

For all the obfuscation and chaos the Ritchey is a sublime frame with a great fork. Stiff but nice ride, rewards you putting the hammer down. The front end in particular is lovely. I got the wrong size sadly so had to let it go.

letap73 · May 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MikeBrew wrote:

"Ugo compared it to a Legend - why don't it ride like one ?"[/b], just may fail to cut the mustard that The PX refund desk.

You do not understand bicycles. Either you are new to the sport, or you are not interested in the mechanics/dynamics of a bicycle, or, which is a possibility, you are only here to stir things up and throw mud to a selected number of retailers that probably are not on your good book, for a reason or another, which could even be you being on the payroll of a competitor.

I will say it again: if two bicycle frames are made with the same tubings and they have the same geometry and features, the only difference is the colour and the typography and content of the stickers. Who made them is irrelevant, as long as he knows how to join tubes.
I have no evidence whatsoever of a single frame (and more specifically metal frames) sold by Planet X which was not built properly, which is not the case for other, more upmarket brands you might lure after.
So this is my evidence that the frame in question will be very similar, most likely identical (bar the fork which is not the same as) to the Legend we discussed.
I might end up being wrong, but my argument is based on some evidence, while yours is based on a bias and nothing else.

As a matter of fact, I am not quite sure why I waste my time coming down to your level, as I should know very well by now that I can't polish a turd...

What you have said here is very interesting and worthy of a thread in its own right - without recourse to the histrionics that we seem to be having in this thread.

Given the comparison of the geometry of the Holdsworth and originally comparing it with the Ritchey Logic and the Legend and arguing that they have similar geometry, similar tubes and constuction you argue there is not a huge difference in performance but there certainly is in price. I assume you could extend this argument to any number of frame builders from the artisan frame buiders to far cheaper mass produced frames. In which case would you argue that that buying an expensive Steel frame could very much be a case of " Emperors new Clothes"

Would the arguments extend to other materials like Carbon, Aluminium etc.

What for example is the essential difference between Cervelo R5 frame and RCA apart from £3500?

ugo.santalucia · May 2016

letap73 wrote:

Would the arguments extend to other materials like Carbon, Aluminium etc.

What for example is the essential difference between Cervelo R5 frame and RCA apart from £3500?

I put my hands forwards... I never took much of an interest in carbon as a material, as no matter how hard I tried, I never managed to find some science about it that speaks my language. The way I see it is that carbon is a more complicated material, in that not only you have all the grades of fibre, but you can lay your fibres to obtain different mechanical properties along different directions. So, two frames which look exactly the same, made with the same fibre/resin, might be completely different.

Steel is a material that I understand better, in fact I use to teach steel as part of a module and framebuilders use tubings... so all they do is design a frame and join the tubes, which are already butted, tapered and wahtnot by Columbus, Reynolds, Deda etc. Therefore two frames made with the same tubings with the same geometry, you guessed it, they are the same thing, provided they are both equally "straight" and proficiently joined. One might argue the joys of brazing rather than welding, but in essence they won't make any difference to the end user (unless you need a repair)

That seems to me pretty straightforward to understand ,although one might not necessarily expect everybody to understand... :roll:

hazy_day · May 2016

Thanks Bender just waiting on a German website to see if they will do a price match. I'm 5'7" with a 30" inseam and am looking at a 51cm Logic as being a good fit.

bendertherobot · May 2016

hazy day wrote:

Thanks Bender just waiting on a German website to see if they will do a price match. I'm 5'7" with a 30" inseam and am looking at a 51cm Logic as being a good fit.

Sounds right to me. I erred and had the big one. Should have had a 53 (5ft 10)

pinno · May 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

letap73 wrote:

Would the arguments extend to other materials like Carbon, Aluminium etc.

What for example is the essential difference between Cervelo R5 frame and RCA apart from £3500?

I put my hands forwards... I never took much of an interest in carbon as a material, as no matter how hard I tried, I never managed to find some science about it that speaks my language. The way I see it is that carbon is a more complicated material, in that not only you have all the grades of fibre, but you can lay your fibres to obtain different mechanical properties along different directions. So, two frames which look exactly the same, made with the same fibre/resin, might be completely different.

Steel is a material that I understand better, in fact I use to teach steel as part of a module and framebuilders use tubings... so all they do is design a frame and join the tubes, which are already butted, tapered and wahtnot by Columbus, Reynolds, Deda etc. Therefore two frames made with the same tubings with the same geometry, you guessed it, they are the same thing, provided they are both equally "straight" and proficiently joined. One might argue the joys of brazing rather than welding, but in essence they won't make any difference to the end user (unless you need a repair)

That seems to me pretty straightforward to understand ,although one might not necessarily expect everybody to understand... :roll:

That's because you have never ridden a C40...

stevie63 · May 2016

hazy day wrote:

Thanks Bender just waiting on a German website to see if they will do a price match. I'm 5'7" with a 30" inseam and am looking at a 51cm Logic as being a good fit.

I am the same height as you but with a 31 inseam and it was the 51cm for me.

MikeBrew · May 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MikeBrew wrote:

"Ugo compared it to a Legend - why don't it ride like one ?"[/b], just may fail to cut the mustard that The PX refund desk.

You do not understand bicycles. Either you are new to the sport, or you are not interested in the mechanics/dynamics of a bicycle, or, which is a possibility, you are only here to stir things up and throw mud to a selected number of retailers that probably are not on your good book, for a reason or another, which could even be you being on the payroll of a competitor.

I will say it again: if two bicycle frames are made with the same tubings and they have the same geometry and features, the only difference is the colour and the typography and content of the stickers. Who made them is irrelevant, as long as he knows how to join tubes.
I have no evidence whatsoever of a single frame (and more specifically metal frames) sold by Planet X which was not built properly, which is not the case for other, more upmarket brands you might lure after.
So this is my evidence that the frame in question will be very similar, most likely identical (bar the fork which is not the same as) to the Legend we discussed.
I might end up being wrong, but my argument is based on some evidence, while yours is based on a bias and nothing else.

As a matter of fact, I am not quite sure why I waste my time coming down to your level, as I should know very well by now that I can't polish a turd...

Oddly enough, I had feeling that you might be right , and me wrong - call it a premonition if you will. I also somehow intuitively knew that you would be functioning on a higher plane, with deeper understanding and a more enlightened cognizance. :idea:
As for the bit about you not being able to polish a turd, I have say that I'm really rather surprised to "hear" you say that. You had appeared, to me, to be really rather adept at it

At the end of the day, it MIGHT be a good frame. If you weren't so caught up in your pretentious, self elevating babble, you'd really that I did already say that. :roll: As for your protestations that you have evidence that is a good frame, well your sofa muffled most of that. And frankly, as far as demonstrable facts go , it muted very little indeed.

The bottom line is, it could be great or rubbish. The only real fact here is that spending £500 that unproven frameset of God knows what real origin is a gamble. Spending the £1000 that's it's up for at the moment, would be a leap of blind faith - in the dark.

ravey1981 · May 2016

Ahhh i remember back in the good old days of 2015 when we didn't have MikeBrew around...... Can he be kicked off soon?....please. We could hold a vote....

MikeBrew · May 2016

hazy day wrote:

Looking at one of these frames and currently seem to be good value as they are on special offer. Any thoughts , well made etc. I know there is a big thread on PX pricing but would just like opinions on this frame only.I'm also looking at the Ritchey Logic.

Mike please read the opening post.I referred specifically to the thread you opened on Planet X pricing.requesting that opinions be offered on the frames mentioned or other steel frames. I am not interested in owning a CAAD 12 or Supersix (they are not steel ) as I already have a Synapse Hi Mod. I'm not interested in Ti frames either having previously owned one. I would like to thank Ugo and the other posters who offered opinions on the frames I asked about. I think 7 pages and growing on smoke and mirrors should give anyone that has a gripe with PX pricing strategy (and many of us have) happy. I should add I have bought from PX,Evans, CRC ,Wiggle,Ribble and numerous German and Dutch online retailers as well as LBS quite happily and will probably continue to do so into the future.

Obviously, what you say here is fair comment. The bottom line though, is that the Holdsworth frame is an unkown quantity. Short of someone who owns one giving you real feedback, the only way to find out would be to buy one and find out. Ugo can draw notional parallels to Legend, to try to sell one of his mate Dave's frames, and theorize as much as he likes, but at the end of day he doesn't KNOW any better than you or I regarding that bike.. That's really all I was pointing out. At the end of the day, you pay your money you take your chance. At least if you get a Ritchey, you have some real world feedback available about what you're getting.
If you love the look of the Holdsworth and feel like taking a punt, do it. It'll £500 (or less) again soon enough.What I said was that I'd be tempted at £300 not 5. That's a very simplefact

MisterMuncher · May 2016

All due deference, it's not the unknown quantity you insist it is. It's a well known tubeset, made to a familiar geometry. Given the number of Pominos/Pompetamines/Kaffenbacks knocking about, it's fair to say that PX have found a subbie who can weld frames rather nicely. It is possible that they've decided to make a sow of this one, but it seems somewhat unlikely. It's fairly obvious they have the right materials, and the right builders to put them together. In all truth, I'm struggling to understand why I'd be more dubious about this frame than any other new-ish frame from an established brand with a reasonable reputation for building in the relevant material.

MikeBrew · May 2016

MisterMuncher wrote:

All due deference, it's not the unknown quantity you insist it is. It's a well known tubeset, made to a familiar geometry. Given the number of Pominos/Pompetamines/Kaffenbacks knocking about, it's fair to say that PX have found a subbie who can weld frames rather nicely. It is possible that they've decided to make a sow of this one, but it seems somewhat unlikely. It's fairly obvious they have the right materials, and the right builders to put them together. In all truth, I'm struggling to understand why I'd be more dubious about this frame than any other new-ish frame from an established brand with a reasonable reputation for building in the relevant material.

To be frank. I think something as simple as common sense is the best tool here. If something is £1000 one day, then £500 the next, then £1000 again the day after that, and so on..... What's it's true value, and what does that say about it's quality ? It just makes it very too hard to gauge either. Was it ever really worth £1000, how huge is the profit margin at 1k if it can be sold for half that ?
In essence, how do you take that product or the manufacturer/retailer seriously enough to spend a significant sum of money with them ?

MisterMuncher · May 2016

I'd take account of it being a generally volatile, discount led business in the first place. Flash sales are a thing now. PX didn't invent them, they're not the worst offender I know of, and we all know how the game works by now. Frankly, none of that really enters into a debate about the relative merits of the frame, which is the question actually being asked. Ugo isn't wrong here: It's good steel, to a proven geometry, being joined up by people who, according to all past evidence, can weld a bit. It might not have the cachet of a Legend &c., but I've not seen a single reasonable argument that it wouldn't be a comparable ride.

Is my SuperSix Evo worth less because the frame was £2200, £750 and £900 over the space of a few days? Can I take Paul's or Cannondale seriously?

ugo.santalucia · May 2016

MikeBrew wrote:

As for the bit about you not being able to polish a turd, I have say that I'm really rather surprised to "hear" you say that. You had appeared, to me, to be really rather adept at it

The insult, if there was one, was not implying that you are turd, but rather implying that you are here as a troll on the payroll of some Planet X competitor, just like your predecessor.

Fact that has already benn pointed out a few times by quite a few people and that you keep ignoring, which really says a lot about your motivations...

MikeBrew · May 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MikeBrew wrote:

As for the bit about you not being able to polish a turd, I have say that I'm really rather surprised to "hear" you say that. You had appeared, to me, to be really rather adept at it

The insult, if there was one, was not implying that you are turd, but rather implying that you are here as a troll on the payroll of some Planet X competitor, just like your predecessor.

Fact that has already benn pointed out a few times by quite a few people and that you keep ignoring, which really says a lot about your motivations...

Insult, who said anything about any insult ? I was simply highlighting part of your skill set, in response to your previous comments. You attacking my motivation and self personally is more of a complement, as it underlines that you can't deal the message, so you're attempting to cut down the messenger.
As far PX competitors go - you refer to them a lot - who would you say that they are, and why ? I don't see anyone else out there buying up multiple defunct brand names and applying them willy-nilly to Chinese frames that they've bought in in large numbers, then retailing them direct. Some Tomacs and Viner models, for instance, appear to be indistinguishable from each other, but for colour scheme, decals and , somewhat more inexplicably, price.

hazy_day · May 2016

I think I have all the info I require to make a decision on the question asked so I think we should leave it at that and put the soap-box away. Thanks to all.

MikeBrew · May 2016

MisterMuncher wrote:

Is my SuperSix Evo worth less because the frame was £2200, £750 and £900 over the space of a few days? Can I take Paul's or Cannondale seriously?

What I actually said was

how do you take that product or the manufacturer/retailer seriously enough to spend a significant sum of money with them ?

And clearly, by buying a Canndondale, you did spend a significant of money with the companies that you mention. In fairness to you, there was never any shortage of information out there regarding Cannondale and the Supersix to aid you, or anyone else for that matter, in that purchasing decision.
The world and his wife knew the deal that Pauls was offering for the 2015 Evo himod was pretty much one off great deal for a sublime machine, due to to the 2016 being a new version. It is less clear that anything like that is true of the PX sorry, I mean Holdsworth .

MikeBrew · May 2016

hazy day wrote:

I think I have all the info I require to make a decision on the question asked so I think we should leave it at that and put the soap-box away. Thanks to all.

Absolutely. Enjoy your new machine - whatever one you finally settle on.

ugo.santalucia · May 2016

Pinno wrote:

That's because you have never ridden a C40...

Indeed, but that has no equivalent, innit? Or maybe if you look in the same period high end Look range and compare the geometries, you might find something very close to a C40

Something like a Look 381 might be reasonably close in geomtery and "manufacturing", although I don't have numbers at hand to compare

DSC-4217.sized.jpg

drlodge · May 2016

I bought a steel frame in 1987, still in use today

Some 25 years later I bought a Reynolds 953 bespoke frame, it cost an awful lot more, has custom geometry so fits a little better, but it essentially feels much the same to ride. The old frame is a little more harsh due to the steel forks.

Steel is steel. As Ugo said, all things being equal the frames will ride the same. Newer frames are likely to be made with thinner materials (953 or triple butted etc) so will be more compliant and have a nicer feel. Good forks will also make a difference so the trick is finding out how the frames differ and what the consequence of that difference is.

pinno · May 2016

I have read this thread from the beginning and I am a bit confused as to the essence of the arguments [I feel for the OP more than anything].

It raises a number of questions:

1. I don't know what PX is up to. Is the bouncing pricing and the difference in price between a frameset and a complete bike just a loss leader?
2. Are they trying to drum up initial sales to create a (niche) market using the Holdsworth reputation and name?
3. Is there a sustainable long term market given a loss leader for a steel frame based bike?
4. Pretty paint job but that means Jack sh1t.
5. Why the continued steel fetish amongst certain forumites - 'It's what i have always ridden and i'm not going to ride anything else'. I had steel frames for years and I would never go back to them.
6. So steel gives you similar geometry to when 'I was a lad' as if there isn't a plethora of CF frames to choose from with the geometry that would suit.
7. How about a Cannondale CAAD 12 if you were that way inclined?

The 'genuine' Holdsworth is a grand for the frameset alone:

http://road.cc/content/buyers-guide/175 ... road-bikes

Are you getting a genuine Holdsworth for this money? Given the prices of bespoke and off the peg steel frames, I would be genuinely concerned with a price tag of > £500 that is is all marketing hype.

It is a common theme that riders above 6 foot tall don't quite get the benefits out of a CF frame that those under 6ft get. I know a number of tall riders who have always struggled to find a CF that ticks all the boxes and that isn't taken into consideration during the argument of Steel vs Carbon. I am not saying that this is a universal theme but a common one at least.
Same goes for wheels. Taller riders love Mavic Ksyriums but a little short 4rse like me (5'9") find them as forgiving as dustbin lids.

PTestTeam · May 2016

Pinno wrote:

I have read this thread from the beginning and I am a bit confused as to the essence of the arguments [I feel for the OP more than anything].

It raises a number of questions:

1. I don't know what PX is up to. Is the bouncing pricing and the difference in price between a frameset and a complete bike just a loss leader?
2. Are they trying to drum up initial sales to create a (niche) market using the Holdsworth reputation and name?
3. Is there a sustainable long term market given a loss leader for a steel frame based bike?
4. Pretty paint job but that means Jack sh1t.
5. Why the continued steel fetish amongst certain forumites - 'It's what i have always ridden and i'm not going to ride anything else'. I had steel frames for years and I would never go back to them.
6. So steel gives you similar geometry to when 'I was a lad' as if there isn't a plethora of CF frames to choose from with the geometry that would suit.
7. How about a Cannondale CAAD 12 if you were that way inclined?

The 'genuine' Holdsworth is a grand for the frameset alone:

http://road.cc/content/buyers-guide/175 ... road-bikes

Are you getting a genuine Holdsworth for this money? Given the prices of bespoke and off the peg steel frames, I would be genuinely concerned with a price tag of > £500 that is is all marketing hype.

It is a common theme that riders above 6 foot tall don't quite get the benefits out of a CF frame that those under 6ft get. I know a number of tall riders who have always struggled to find a CF that ticks all the boxes and that isn't taken into consideration during the argument of Steel vs Carbon. I am not saying that this is a universal theme but a common one at least.
Same goes for wheels. Taller riders love Mavic Ksyriums but a little short 4rse like me (5'9") find them as forgiving as dustbin lids.

They need to look at custom made carbon frames. They can be built made-to-measure and custom tube lay-ups and joints can take into account their weight and power

veronese68 · May 2016

MikeBrew wrote:

Ugo can draw notional parallels to Legend, to try to sell one of his mate Dave's frames, and theorize as much as he likes, but at the end of day he doesn't KNOW any better than you or I regarding that bike.

It's quite clear to everybody else on this thread that Ugo knows quite a lot more than you do. We all realise you don't like the Planet X pricing policy. As others have also pointed out the tubing it is made from is a known quantity, the geometry tells you everything else you really need to know. Obviously you won't believe this and will bang on regardless but you really are getting incredibly tedious and most people wish you would stop.
I also sympathise with the OP that his question has been completely derailed by a bore with a bee in his bonnet.

ugo.santalucia · May 2016

Pinno wrote:

5. Why the continued steel fetish amongst certain forumites - 'It's what i have always ridden and i'm not going to ride anything else'. I had steel frames for years and I would never go back to them.

I don't think the material has any bearings. Carbon combined with CAD allows a virtually infinite number of possible designs, hence it's loved, because you can make your product look unique... although you can be sure within 12 months your unique design will be ubiquitous...
But you can come up with a new design and stay on the crest of the wave, so to speak!
Metal frames are made by joining lengths of pipe, so to speak, so the design options are far reduced... it will look like a two triangles sharing all or part of one of the sides, no matter how hard you try.

There is a weight difference and a stiffness difference, but they are feeble arguments for the non competitive cyclist, although often hyped to the stars... the real deal about a carbon frame is that you can make it look like a trident submarine if you want to with little to no penalty, which you cannot do with steel or aluminum or titanium. Incidentally large flat surfaces also please sponsors and manufacturers, who see the size of their logo multipled n times and visible on TV!!!!

My main gripe against carbon is that it is quite expensive for my pocket, even second hand. I bought a second hand frame on ebay in alloy for 200 quid, there was the same frame in carbon (identical geometry, same brand) in similar conditions, but they wanted 750.

Other folks might not like the idea of a hole opening on the top tube if you accidentally drop a D lock on it, but it's a small (and often paranoid) group of people.

MikeBrew · May 2016

Veronese68 wrote:

MikeBrew wrote:

Ugo can draw notional parallels to Legend, to try to sell one of his mate Dave's frames, and theorize as much as he likes, but at the end of day he doesn't KNOW any better than you or I regarding that bike.

It's quite clear to everybody else on this thread that Ugo knows quite a lot more than you do, IMO. We all realise you don't like the Planet X pricing policy. As others have also pointed out the tubing it is made from is a known quantity, the geometry tells you everything else you really need to know. Obviously you won't believe this and will bang on regardless but you really are getting incredibly tedious and most people wish you would stop.
I also sympathies with the OP that his question has been completely derailed by a bore with a bee in his bonnet.IMO

Apparently you missed this post that preceded your post - and thereby obviated the content of your post, in support of your buddy almost completely. :

MikeBrew wrote:

hazy day wrote:

I think I have all the info I require to make a decision on the question asked so I think we should leave it at that and put the soap-box away. Thanks to all.

Absolutely. Enjoy your new machine - whatever one you finally settle on.

I should point out that I took the liberty of adding IMO in a couple of places for you . We all have opinions, I think it's important that we all remember A) that we're all entitled to have them and

They are only opinions.C) Stating an opinion an absolute fact - as your good friend Ugo is sometimes wont to do, is not always entirely helpful to anyone, OP or otherwise.
You might also care to remember that your good friend has to been known to espouse quite strong opinions of his own, and also "bang on" - some would say boorishly - at length in the past, as is his wont and his right.
My pleasure, you're very welcome..

Planet X Holdsworth steel frame.

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