Planet X Holdsworth steel frame.

hazy_day

Looking at one of these frames and currently seem to be good value as they are on special offer. Any thoughts , well made etc. I know there is a big thread on PX pricing but would just like opinions on this frame only.I'm also looking at the Ritchey Logic.

arlowood

hazy day wrote:

Looking at one of these frames and currently seem to be good value as they are on special offer. Any thoughts , well made etc. I know there is a big thread on PX pricing but would just like opinions on this frame only.I'm also looking at the Ritchey Logic.

The Ritchey frameset will cost you ~£200 more than today's "flash" sale price of the Holdsworth but my money would be on the Ritchey. A bit more pedigree than a frame where PX have bought the Holdsworth brand name and slapped it onto a generic steel frame.

Some satisfied customers here if you need more convincing

viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=13022481&p=19861555&hilit=Ritchey+Logic#p19861555

bendertherobot

What you need to know is that the Holdsworth is named after Reg Holdsworth and shamefully apes that Coronation Street vibe without paying any due to the creators of that amazing show.

ugo.santalucia

The PX should be a much stiffer frame than the Logic... just look at the size of the tubings and the tapered head tube. It's also made of Columbus Spirit, which is as good (and light) as tubings get... if you like it, I would say the Holdsworth is the better frame, then of course it depends on the fit

MikeBrew

The bad thing about an offer than ends imminently, is that creates all the right pressures for you to buy in haste. The good thing about it is that you get to regret it at your leisure...
I love the paint scheme, but that's only as it mimics that the Real Holdsworth Professional of yesteryear. As already mentioned by Arlowood, this offering is in reality a frame of unkown origin with paint scheme and purchased brand name evocative of better things.
The quality of the ride and longevity of the build is anyone's guess. At £300 I'd be tempted, just for a cheap nostalgia trip, despite the noticeable orange peel finish. And despite my opinion that rather than any real attempt at resurrecting the venerable Holdsworth from the dead, all that PX have really done with the name is to try to get a few free drinks at the funeral wake.
Notwithstanding all of that, I'd likely take a punt at £300, but not a penny more. After all, what does £300 quid buy these days anyway... :idea:

ugo.santalucia

MikeBrew wrote:

The bad thing about an offer than ends imminently, is that creates all the right pressures for you to buy in haste. The good thing about it is that you get to regret it at your leisure...
I love the paint scheme, but that's only as it mimics that the Real Holdsworth Professional of yesteryear. As already mentioned by Arlowood, this offering is in reality a frame of unkown origin with paint scheme and purchased brand name evocative of better things.
The quality of the ride and longevity of the build is anyone's guess. At £300 I'd be tempted, just for a cheap nostalgia trip, despite the orange peel finish. After all, what does £300 quid buy these days...

Fairly standard compact geometry, top quality tubings, not sure how it is worse than a Legend by Bertoletti TBH. The only question mark is the fork, which could be good or could be made of carbon-cheese.

Not many had problems with PX steel frames, they are generally as good as any

ugo.santalucia

In fact for the closest sizes

Legend Fedaia PX Holdsworth

Top tube 542 550
Head tube 144 155
Seat Tube C-T 495 500
Seat Angle 73.5 degrees 74 degrees

Which basically is the same geometry, same tubing, same tapered head tube... it's really down to spotting the little differences

MikeBrew

Which basically is the same geometry, same tubing, same tapered head tube... it's really down to spotting the little differences

Little things like the quality of the welding/who actually built it ? It's almost a given that PX are extremely adept at making their products mimic the APPEARANCE of superior products. Even right down to the purchased brand names. Appearance alone is a poor guide to quality.
Bear in mind that a pretty convincing copy of a £10000 Rolex can be picked up for £30.

ugo.santalucia

MikeBrew wrote:

Which basically is the same geometry, same tubing, same tapered head tube... it's really down to spotting the little differences

Little things like the quality of the welding/who actually built it ? It's almost a given that PX are adept at making their products mimic the APPEARANCE of superior products. Even right down to the purchased brand names.

One is brazed, one is welded, the brazing always looks better, welding is less time consuming, but in practice it's the same thing. If the welds don't fail (and why should they?) then what is the difference? There is no magic... it's just about joining pipes... same material, pretty much same geometry= pretty much the same thing

I like beautiful things... but if one cannot afford the 2 grand frames, then why not get a Plnet X, which rides the same?

MikeBrew

ugosantalucia wrote:

There is no magic... it's just about joining pipes... same material, pretty much same geometry= pretty much the same thing

So, in essence, are you saying that the whole "Artisan" thing is a bit of a myth ?

ugo.santalucia

MikeBrew wrote:

Bear in mind that a pretty convincing copy of a £10000 Rolex can be picked up for £30.

Rolex retain their value as luxury items, artisan frames don't, so it's not the same thing. If Rolex did not retain value, then the convincing 30 quid copy that does not break the law is the better deal for sure

ugo.santalucia

MikeBrew wrote:

ugosantalucia wrote:

There is no magic... it's just about joining pipes... same material, pretty much same geometry= pretty much the same thing

So, in essence, are you saying that the whole "Artisan" thing is a bit of a myth ?

Yes... in essence it is what I am saying... that said, they are beautiful and exclusive things, if one is into owning things of beauty

MikeBrew

Oh so it's all about appearance and residual value. I kind of thought it might have at least a little to do with how the products actually performed in their intended usage.
The precision and engineering excellence of a genuine Rolex I can do without as I have a clock on my phone. A bit of £30 bling on my wrist would suffice (were I bling orientated), as a few minutes it lost a day or week wouldn't impact my life.
A facsimile frame-set that flexes and weaves on fast, technical mountain descents, might prove slightly more problematic.. It's lack of precision might even stop "my clock" altogether...

ugo.santalucia

MikeBrew wrote:

A facsimile frame-set that flexes and weaves on fast, technical mountain descents, might prove slightly more problematic.. It's lack of precision might even stop "my clock" altogether...

If it was made of cheese or bamboo, then yes, but it's made of the same tubings, with pretty much the same geometry... how can one be stiff and the other one floppy... you really have no faith in mankind...

It's not that Planet X have their frames made by folks who haven't got a clue how to join steel tubes... I would argue that most likely they have more precision instruments in a large factory than an artisan in his workshop... the ONLY difference will be the cosmetic finish... of course Bertoletti will put one hundred hours to make sure the finish is immaculate, while Mr Li Chen will probably just give a rough finish to his welds and happy days... he can weld 5 frames in a day... none of them inferior to the ones painstakenly assembled in a workshop.

They are different products for different customers, but once you are riding them, they are the same thing

MikeBrew

ugosantalucia wrote:

I like beautiful things... but if one cannot afford the 2 grand frames, then why not get a Plnet X, which rides the same?

ugosantalucia wrote:

the ONLY difference will be the cosmetic finish

ugosantalucia wrote:

hey are different products for different customers, but once you are riding them, they are the same thing

You seem to adhere to the belief that if you assert something stridently enough, enough times, it becomes established fact. That work's, but only in the minds of the easily led.

To wit, none of your above assertions are established facts, particularly the idea that said machines would ride equally well. :idea: That said, I still think that the PX is worth a £300 nostalgia punt. So you see, I really do have faith in mankind, I just have more faith in some members of the human race than I do in others . And THAT, really is a fact...

ravey1981

MikeBrew wrote:

ugosantalucia wrote:

I like beautiful things... but if one cannot afford the 2 grand frames, then why not get a Plnet X, which rides the same?

ugosantalucia wrote:

the ONLY difference will be the cosmetic finish

ugosantalucia wrote:

hey are different products for different customers, but once you are riding them, they are the same thing

You seem to adhere to the belief that if you assert something stridently enough, enough times, it becomes established fact. That work's, but only in the minds of the easily led.

To wit, none of your above assertions are established facts particularly the idea that would ride equally well :idea: That said, I still think that the PX is worth a £300 nostalgia punt. So you see, I really do have faith in mankind, I just have more faith in some members of the human race than I do in others . And THAT, really is a fact...

Which is why most of you're 400 odd posts have been dedicated to slateing PX just because you don't agree with their marketing policy?? Why don't you start on DFS next.... :roll: :roll:

ugo.santalucia

You can put faith wherever you want, but if you think a Morgan is a better car than a Dacia or a Tata, because it's made in a converted shed in Merseyside by a mad man instead of a large factory in Romania or India, then I am afraid that is not the case...
I have owned two Genesis frames welded in the far east by folks who churn them by the hundreds and the welds are as strong as any Bertoletti/Pegoretti...

imposter2.0

MikeBrew wrote:

ugosantalucia wrote:

There is no magic... it's just about joining pipes... same material, pretty much same geometry= pretty much the same thing

So, in essence, are you saying that the whole "Artisan" thing is a bit of a myth ?

Definitely a myth. Just blokes with welding torches at the end of the day. Some have beards, so charge more...

bendertherobot

ugo.santalucia wrote:

You can put faith wherever you want, but if you think a Morgan is a better car than a Dacia or a Tata, because it's made in a converted shed in Merseyside by a mad man instead of a large factory in Romania or India, then I am afraid that is not the case...
I have owned two Genesis frames welded in the far east by folks who churn them by the hundreds and the welds are as strong as any Bertoletti/Pegoretti...

Seen the crash test for the Tata Nano? And when did Morgan move?

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

Seen the crash test for the Tata Nano? And when did Morgan move?

It's a car for the Indian market, where road safety is not as high on the agenda as here. I don't know why I was convinced Morgan was Liverpool, despite passing in front of the factory not long ago in Malvern... that doesn't make them any less unreliable, mind you...

MikeBrew

ravey1981 wrote:

MikeBrew wrote:

ugosantalucia wrote:

I like beautiful things... but if one cannot afford the 2 grand frames, then why not get a Plnet X, which rides the same?

ugosantalucia wrote:

the ONLY difference will be the cosmetic finish

ugosantalucia wrote:

hey are different products for different customers, but once you are riding them, they are the same thing

You seem to adhere to the belief that if you assert something stridently enough, enough times, it becomes established fact. That work's, but only in the minds of the easily led.

To wit, none of your above assertions are established facts particularly the idea that would ride equally well :idea: That said, I still think that the PX is worth a £300 nostalgia punt. So you see, I really do have faith in mankind, I just have more faith in some members of the human race than I do in others . And THAT, really is a fact...

Which is why most of you're 400 odd posts have been dedicated to slateing PX just because you don't agree with their marketing policy?? Why don't you start on DFS next.... :roll: :roll:

Good point, well spotted. In answer to that : I haven't done the maths on my post count(I'm sure you WILL), so you might be right or you might be exaggerating a just tiny bit; I have never yet had cause to ride a sofa down a mountain, so DFS are pretty safe from my attentions; I have every faith in people being able and willing, to make full use of their thinking furniture to make up their own minds; and I happen to believe in what I'm saying.... (Should I do a triple rolly eye thing here for Uber emphasis ?)
Of course as a PX owner you are obviously keen to protect your buying decisions. Maybe you even got a decent deal.

And please don't misunderstand , I am not anti PX per se. What I against is the way they P+ss about with prices in an attempt to confuse and bedazzle folk as to the actuall value/price of a given product. I daresay a Pro Carbon frame is good value at around the £250 mark, so why falsely inflate it to £450 then say it's massively discounted at £250. Totall bollox, you 'd have to agree I think.
Remember it Px that coined the "SIMPLE NO NONSENSE PRICING" slogan. Why not call it what it is and sell it for what it's "worth"....as the slogan suggests.

bmxboy10

ugo.santalucia wrote:

In fact for the closest sizes

Legend Fedaia PX Holdsworth

Top tube 542 550
Head tube 144 155
Seat Tube C-T 495 500
Seat Angle 73.5 degrees 74 degrees

Which basically is the same geometry, same tubing, same tapered head tube... it's really down to spotting the little differences

That is a good comparison. Ugo keeping it real again 8)

bmxboy10

solboy10 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

In fact for the closest sizes

Legend Fedaia PX Holdsworth

Top tube 542 550
Head tube 144 155
Seat Tube C-T 495 500
Seat Angle 73.5 degrees 74 degrees

Which basically is the same geometry, same tubing, same tapered head tube... it's really down to spotting the little differences

That is a good comparison. Ugo keeping it real again 8)

Another good comparison is the Enigma HSS Elite. The one looked at a couple of years ago (the demo bike) had untidy welds and the masking of the paint was ropey IMO - they sell for north of £1500!

Id take a punt on the Holdsworth.

MikeBrew

Ah, but in what size ? And at what price? It changes tomorrow and, very possibly, the day after that and the week after that, and so on and so forth

ugo.santalucia

MikeBrew wrote:

Ah, but in what size ? And at what price? It changes tomorrow and, very possibly, the day after that and the week after that, and so on and so forth

I do agree PX pricing policy is annoying, but their bikes and frames especially are very good value. I recently got a Kaffenbeck for 150 pounds. The paintwork is immaculate, the frame is well built, straight as a dye (unlike some Cervelo I came across, where the perfectly dished real wheel was not sitting in the middle of the stays).
Personally, I would not buy the Holdsworth, because Holdsworth means nothing to me, I'd probably buy it if it was a plain orange frame... but I have to admit a Columbus Spirit frame with full carbon fork, modern geometry, oversized tubings at that price is a steal

bendertherobot

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

Seen the crash test for the Tata Nano? And when did Morgan move?

It's a car for the Indian market, where road safety is not as high on the agenda as here. I don't know why I was convinced Morgan was Liverpool, despite passing in front of the factory not long ago in Malvern... that doesn't make them any less unreliable, mind you...

But it's not the best analogy. In ours the Holdsworth is as good as the other, wherever ridden. FWIW, it looks fantastic.

MikeBrew

ugo.santalucia wrote:

at that price is a steal

Well it's £500 at the moment.... When they do a Super-Duper-Uber-Xtra, one second sale @£300 I'll have one - If I don't sneeze, f@rt or blink at the wrong moment and miss my opportunity completely

Yes Bender, they absolutely look nice........

ugo.santalucia

MikeBrew wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

at that price is a steal

Well it's £500 at the moment.... When they do a Super-Duper-Uber-Xtra, one second sale @£300 I'll have one - If I don't sneeze, f@rt or blink at the wrong moment and miss my opportunity completely

Yes Bender, they absolutely look nice........

I thought 500 was the deal, didn't see the 300. An artisan will charge between 1500 and 2500 for a frame made in Columbus Spirit... mind you, for that money you should get a made to measure slash colour of choice, which might take 6-18 months to be ready, rather than 3 days.

The Logic is 850 or so and is a mass manufactured frame, just like the PX, but in less wonderful tubing

MikeBrew

To be fair it hasn't, to my knowledge, been offered at £300 - yet. My price reasoning is that if they can bang out the whole 105 5800 equipped bike for a grand, then the frame alone at £500 doesn't look to be discounted at all. At £300, I could see that it might be. Interestingly, although the £500 is an offer price that ends at midnight, the ad doesn't state what price the frame was previously offered at. In fact, if you scroll the linked page down it appears that it was once FREE http://www.planetx.co.uk/deals :shock: Bugger, I totally missed that.

ugo.santalucia

MikeBrew wrote:

To be fair, it hasn't, to my knowledge, been offered at £300 - yet.

So basically you are trying to confuse the already confusing PX pricing... :roll:

It's not for you, we got that.

Moral is, for the benefit of the OP... the Holdsworth is a better frame at a lower price

MikeBrew

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MikeBrew wrote:

To be fair, it hasn't, to my knowledge, been offered at £300 - yet.

So basically you are trying to confuse the already confusing PX pricing... :roll:

Well, no. You got confused, without me trying to confuse anyone. And no, it's not "not for me" : it's not for me at that price.
Lets not put words in each others mouths, hey.
And my experience of PX tells me that I won't have to wait for ever for it to be offered at under £499.

ugosantalucia wrote:

Moral is, for the benefit of the OP... the Holdsworth is a better frame at a lower price, in my opinion

Otherwise I might add words like the above words in bold which you so obviously omitted...Though it is more factually accurate with the ad on, IMO.