Henao, you're a rockstar, get your show on, get paid!

yourpaceormine

Interesting stuff, unfortunately I didn't listen in biology at school so you've gone and lost me a bit. Any accurate, simpleton's guides to all this blood stuff online? Ta in anticipation

ddraver

Tibetans Breathe faster

Columbians have more red blood cells

Ethiopians have more efficient blood

rick_chasey

Pity the poor Europeans who have won all those Grand Tours and World championships.

ddraver

I know right, It's almost like this is a nuanced conversation!

Richmond Racer 2

Sergio Henao has had a nightmarish couple of years. Good luck to him now

RichN95.

I had another scan through Epstein's chapter and I overgeneralised them. There are actually distinct groups - those whose ancestors have been at altitude for thousand of years and those that moved there around 500 years ago. The latter group has blood like the Andeans and provide almost all the top runners.

He also suggests there are possibly benefits for someone with lowland genetics born and raised at altitude

Mad_Malx

Relating back to the original thread then, the biopassport needs continual refinement. It's based on a statistical model of 'normal' fluctuations, with a large error margin to avoid false positives. Ethnicity does feed into the calculations but there are likely some situations that are under-represented in the model, ie all gene/environment combinations.
Since, as discussed above, there are multiple genes involved in the body's response to oxygen shortage (altitude/threshold exercise) then no two individuals will be exactly the same. No-one knows how someone with Henao's specific mix of Andean/Iberian/Bigfoot genes will respond to his training schedule without doing the study.

Sky spotted Henao heading for a red flag and, rather than waiting for WADA to notice they decided to investigate themselves and go public to avoid leaks and adverse publicity. Looks very well handled to me.

ocdupalais

RichN95 wrote:

He also suggests there are possibly benefits for someone with lowland genetics born and raised at altitude

Someone born and raised in somewhere like Nairobi, perhaps?

rick_chasey

That'd explain why dish rides like sh!t off a shovel...

Mad_Malx

Nairobi at 1800m not really high enough, although I don't know about the top of Froome Towers or how long he spent there.
.

RichN95.

OCDuPalais wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

He also suggests there are possibly benefits for someone with lowland genetics born and raised at altitude

Someone born and raised in somewhere like Nairobi, perhaps?

I can let Epstein himself answer that one. From a Guardian online Q&A:

Q: What do you think of the claims about Chris Froome having a huge advantage (at cycling up mountains) because he was brought up in Kenya? That's a nature (white guy) v nurture (Kenya) issue.

A: Well, Chris was born in Nairobi, which is at moderate altitude. As I discuss in the book, the ideal situation (all other things being equal) for an endurance performer, would be to have sea level genetics but be born at altitude. This leads both to increased hemoglobin and to larger lung surface area. (After adolescence, the window for the latter adaptation closes, but the former remains open to adults.) That is Froome's situation. It's also the life story of the top male American marathoner (Ryan Hall) and the top female (Shalane Flanagan). And it's also the background of the Kalenjin people of Kenya and the Oromo people of Ethiopia, both minority tribes that produce nearly all of the great runners. The altitude Froome was born at is a bit lower than ideal, though, and it's not as if he's the only one that had that experience. While I do think it's advantageous--again, all other things being equal--I certainly don't think it's an unfair advantage at all. In fact, I think it's a cool bit of physiology, and he's hardly the only endurance athlete with that background.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... e#comments

RichN95.

Henao is in Sky's Dauphine team. Add Thomas into that octet and I think that will be their Tour team.

Richmond Racer 2

Meanwhile - more interestingly than having to schlep around the French Alps for a week carrying bidons for Fenton - we get a chance to see how much Thomas Geraint has improved enough to get the win this time at TdS

iainf72

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Meanwhile - more interestingly than having to schlep around the French Alps for a week carrying bidons for Fenton - we get a chance to see how much Thomas Geraint has improved enough to get the win this time at TdS

Ha, you said "interesting" and "TdS"

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Meanwhile - more interestingly than having to schlep around the French Alps for a week carrying bidons for Fenton - we get a chance to see how much Thomas Geraint has improved enough to get the win this time at TdS

Ha, you said "interesting" and "TdS"

But there will be heart rates on the screen which will be relevant because everyone's heart and body is identical.

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

But there will be heart rates on the screen which will be relevant because everyone's heart and body is identical.

Combined with on-bike footage, I can't imagine how that will be topped.

Maybe one day they'll work out that maybe some kind of RFID system so you can identify riders in a group easily on telly might improve the viewing experience. Combine it with a 2nd screen or something

I like what the Giro do with the gradients in the mountains. That's relevant and useful info. Knowing that Froome is at 152bpm and Quintana is at 194bpm is utterly pointless.

tailwindhome

iainf72 wrote:

Maybe one day they'll work out that maybe some kind of RFID system so you can identify riders in a group easily on telly might improve the viewing experience. Combine it with a 2nd screen or something

I like what the Giro do with the gradients in the mountains. That's relevant and useful info. Knowing that Froome is at 152bpm and Quintana is at 194bpm is utterly pointless.

Biggest problem with cycling and cycling on TV is combining it with a full time job and a family.

ocdupalais

iainf72 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

But there will be heart rates on the screen which will be relevant because everyone's heart and body is identical.

Combined with on-bike footage, I can't imagine how that will be topped.

Maybe one day they'll work out that maybe some kind of RFID system so you can identify riders in a group easily on telly might improve the viewing experience. Combine it with a 2nd screen or something

I like what the Giro do with the gradients in the mountains. That's relevant and useful info. Knowing that Froome is at 152bpm and Quintana is at 194bpm is utterly pointless.

I know that you started with sarcasm with the first bit - but then can't tell if it tails off towards the end or not. Assuming that your end assertion is straight, I refute it. The gradient is the same for sprinters and climbers alike: if we know that Froome/Quintana's max heart rates are 153 and 195bpm respectively, then 152 or 194bpm suggests they could be about to blow.

RichN95.

OCDuPalais wrote:

if we know that Froome/Quintana's max heart rates are 153 and 195bpm respectively, then 152 or 194bpm suggests they could be about to blow.

Why on earth would a rider do that? No-one important is going to give that intel to an opponent.

ocdupalais

RichN95 wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

if we know that Froome/Quintana's max heart rates are 153 and 195bpm respectively, then 152 or 194bpm suggests they could be about to blow.

Why on earth would a rider do that? No-one important is going to give that intel to an opponent.

Froome's is already out there: and I'm sure while he was looking at his stem, once or twice, he's had a sneaky sideways glance at Quintana's Garmin before doing one of his ridiculous diddle-diddle-diddle attacks - then seeing what it registered... I'd take an informed guess that Quintana's max heart rate is 188. He looks like that kinda guy.

ddraver

To be honest, one stage with the HR on screen where the rider breaks will give us a pretty good idea of where their max HR is - or at least when they re close to the limit or just pretending...

RichN95.

OCDuPalais wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

if we know that Froome/Quintana's max heart rates are 153 and 195bpm respectively, then 152 or 194bpm suggests they could be about to blow.

Why on earth would a rider do that? No-one important is going to give that intel to an opponent.

Froome's is already out there: and I'm sure while he was looking at his stem, once or twice, he's had a sneaky sideways glance at Quintana's Garmin before doing one of his ridiculous diddle-diddle-diddle attacks - then seeing what it registered... I'd take an informed guess that Quintana's max heart rate is 188. He looks like that kinda guy.

I mean live data, not the max HR. It takes the bluffing and psychology out of the game. If I was a top rider, I'd get a electronic whizz to rig my monitor.

Richmond Racer 2

^ Joel's Hungarian professor perhaps?

Turfle

I also think instantaneous knowledge of which riders are in which groups will have an adverse effect on tactics, and on my excitement as a viewer. The intrigue of figuring out which riders haven't made the top group is part of the fun of watching cycling imo.

joelsim

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

^ Joel's Hungarian professor perhaps?

You need to eat if you're hungary.