Advice on position

markhewitt1978

Svetty wrote:

Reputable or not, your saddle is definitely too high!

Yup! It would seem so

drlodge

Mark, bit of a tricky one this. I looked at the video again, as well as the saddle looking a tad high, I also note your back is curved which may well be contributing to your problem. I don't know how best to resolve this as you may not have the flexibility to bring your back straight as your hips would need to be rotated forward. Tilting the saddle forward might help, or just bring about other issues. I am no exert in this field.

In order to get to the bottom of it, I would suggest a "reputable" bike fitter, but one who is known to not only fit the bike to you, but really get into your physiology and understand the causes of the problems you have. If the causes are not known and the fitter makes changes to the setup, its not going to fix the underlying problem.

One I would recommend is thebikewhisperer, not cheap (or possibly near you) but someone like this will spend the necessary time understanding your body as well as your bike.

FWIW, when I had my bike fit he found the bike was a good fit to me (not surprising as it was custom built!) but there was some rocking in my hips. This was due to my spine/hips naturally not being straight and a combination of wedges & a 4mm spacer on my left shoe made my pedalling a lot smoother. Most of the time was spent on the foot/pedal interface, he also performed quite a number of tests to understand my physiology i.e. the setup of my body.

markhewitt1978

drlodge wrote:

One I would recommend is thebikewhisperer, not cheap (or possibly near you) but someone like this will spend the necessary time understanding your body as well as your bike.

288 miles away :shock: - I live near Durham. Although I'm not opposed to the idea of getting another fit done, the last two were more of a case of make a change and them go "does that feel better" - well, erm, I don't know really, aren't you supposed to be telling me if it's better or not? What feels fine now won't be fine once I've been riding 50 miles flat out.

A quick google comes up with the likes of this http://www.bike-science.com/pages/preci ... ke-fitting Retul fit apparently; which is above a farm shop in a remote village near Richmond N. Yorkshire

BTW this is where I got my previous fit http://www.bikefitnortheast.com/ and the saddle height they set was some 5mm above what is in the video. I don't wish to bash them or anything like that as that wouldn't be fair; just to give an example of the type of fit which didn't really work for me.

paul2718

Just looking at your right leg the saddle isn't obviously too high, and it's not clear due to lack of contrast and the angle whether you are really bouncing on the saddle or whether all the motion through your back has other causes.

It's counter-intuitive but I wonder if going lower and further at the front would actually help. The reasoning is to give more for your legs to work against, so rather than all your back, shoulder and arm muscles having to work against the pedalling it's done more with sheer mass.

Of course if you are stretching for the pedal at the bottom of the stroke then the saddle is too high.

I think I'll start a contrary bike fit business. Lever, mass, reaction, fulcrum, build some core strength. Develop some jargon from there.

Paul

markhewitt1978

paul2718 wrote:

It's counter-intuitive but I wonder if going lower and further at the front would actually help. The reasoning is to give more for your legs to work against, so rather than all your back, shoulder and arm muscles having to work against the pedalling it's done more with sheer mass.

Early last year I had an 80mm stem fitted and my back pain was almost as bad then; I had the thought that it could be that I was actually using a stem which is too short and would lead to me being hunched over in the saddle. So I tried a 90mm stem instead; in short it didn't seem to make any difference and a couple of weeks later I went for my bike fit and the fitter said 70mm stem.

kajjal

I would suggest getting your saddle position correct. That means your legs are in the right position and you start from a well balanced point. Start with saddle height and if unsure be a little too low, you want to be stable on the saddle without stretching to the pedals and pointing your feet downwards. Make sure the saddle is level. Then read up on KOPS and use it to get the saddle fore / aft position right, once done it may need a slight adjustment to get it right for you.

Then look at the bar position, your arms should be slightly bent as you lean into the bike a little wherever you are on the bars. Too close and you will be crunched up and too far away you will be over stretched. Both will affect your weight distribution and make things less comfortable. To begin with look for about an inch saddle to bar drop to give a more relaxed position. Locked arms generally mean the bar is too far away or has too much drop. Key is make changes one at a time so you can see the effect they have. My first road bike took me weeks to get right but what i learnt meant the next bike took only a few rides to get the way i wanted it.

The other big factor is what type of back injury you have. I put my back in spasm and bike riding plus exercises sorted it in only a few days. Other injuries mean under no circumstances should someone be riding a bike. Best to confirm with your doctor if you haven't already.

Hope you get it sorted out it is very frustrating.

markhewitt1978

Kajjal wrote:

I would suggest getting your saddle position correct. That means your legs are in the right position and you start from a well balanced point. Start with saddle height and if unsure be a little too low, you want to be stable on the saddle without stretching to the pedals and pointing your feet downwards. Make sure the saddle is level. Then read up on KOPS and use it to get the saddle fore / aft position right, once done it may need a slight adjustment to get it right for you.

Then look at the bar position, your arms should be slightly bent as you lean into the bike a little wherever you are on the bars. Too close and you will be crunched up and too far away you will be over stretched. Both will affect your weight distribution and make things less comfortable. To begin with look for about an inch saddle to bar drop to give a more relaxed position. Locked arms generally mean the bar is too far away or has too much drop. Key is make changes one at a time so you can see the effect they have. My first road bike took me weeks to get right but what i learnt meant the next bike took only a few rides to get the way i wanted it.

Yes; this is pretty much my plan, despite having this bike for three years, back to basics! . Ideally I think starting with no reference to my current position, perhaps put the saddle down to minimum and work upwards from there.

The other big factor is what type of back injury you have. I put my back in spasm and bike riding plus exercises sorted it in only a few days. Other injuries mean under no circumstances should someone be riding a bike. Best to confirm with your doctor if you haven't already. Hope you get it sorted out it is very frustrating.

It is very frustrating that's for sure but it's been bugging me for over a year now so I do need to spend some time to get it finally sorted out. I'm seeing a physio on Saturday but I've already prepared myself that I'm not going to be doing any riding at least until the end of next week and even then probably short rides on the turbo at first to see how I get on. Depends what the physio says of course.

photonic69

I'd seek a physio that treats cyclists. There is one in Bath where I live that does treatments and also does bike fits.

Seems probable that the saddle is too high. I'd also be looking at your flexibility and core strength. I had quite bad lower back pain from cycling. Did all the online bike fit advice which helped somewhat. I now do lots of core strengthening exercises and stretching and mobility work - basically yoga. It really has helped a lot. If I've not done the exercises for a week or more then cycle my back complains again.

HTH

Nic.

darkhairedlord

bend your elbows and relax the shoulders, you're too tense, bound to hurt your back like that.

drlodge

darkhairedlord wrote:

bend your elbows and relax the shoulders, you're too tense, bound to hurt your back like that.

He's not wrong, it does look like your back is doing a lot of tense work.

mugensi

It certainly does look like your saddle is too high (by about 2cm by my reckoning) Also what shoes/cleats are you using? Its difficult to tell but it appears like the pedal is right under your foot arch whereas it should be under the ball of your foot. That alone will cause you have your leg straighter when pedalling.

Another thing is, your arms are locked when your riding on the bars behind the hoods which suggests you are too far forward and high. Drop the saddle and move it back a 5-10mm and try and develop a bend in your arm when on the bar top/corners.

markhewitt1978

darkhairedlord wrote:

bend your elbows and relax the shoulders, you're too tense, bound to hurt your back like that.

Although I am tense because it was a few seconds of cycling after a long setup process. I do have that issue that I cycle shoulders up, difficult to remember to relax.

amrushton

You could go to Cyclefit in Manchester. Some sensible advice on here but motion capture and an understanding of physiology is what Cyclefit specialise in. Adrian at Cadence or the Bike Whisperer are highly regarded. When my wife had saddle issues (a long running saga) I was not prepared to spend more money guessing at a saddle. We went to Cyclefit in London where £150 and over 3 hours work solved the saddle issue - but opened up other issues which were related - basically foot issues - all related and remember every change you make impacts somewhere else. That £150 was worth it - a saddle at £100 a pop might not have worked - in fact it wouldn't because the width was a real issue

paul_onabike

What size inside leg measurement, and what length cranks do you have? Your cranks may be too long for your size and flexability.

Elfed

You mention that you've done a lot of indoor riding over winter, but hardly any outdoors.
Due to circumstances I couldn't control I was in a similar position and what I noticed on my first couple of outdoor rides this year was how much my core and upper body strength had depleted just doing the turbo.
My shoulders and back would get painful, legs and lungs fine, felt really weird, worth a thought.

markhewitt1978

Paul Onabike wrote:

What size inside leg measurement, and what length cranks do you have? Your cranks may be too long for your size and flexability.

29" (736mm) pant size. 165mm cranks.

markhewitt1978

Elfed wrote:

You mention that you've done a lot of indoor riding over winter, but hardly any outdoors.
Due to circumstances I couldn't control I was in a similar position and what I noticed on my first couple of outdoor rides this year was how much my core and upper body strength had depleted just doing the turbo.
My shoulders and back would get painful, legs and lungs fine, felt really weird, worth a thought.

Yes; I think that's definitely part of the issue at play. Notably I was fine all through the winter doing some quite hard efforts and didn't give my back a second thought - my knee on the other hand was another matter! And I'm sure that having strong legs and lungs but no stability is a big factor.

The first few rides of the year however were fine, no particular back issues apart from climbing Crawleyside which is a particularly killer local climb, but a 2 minute rest at the top and I was good.

On the week proceeding when I hurt my back I was on holiday so turbo riding almost every day, including 90 minutes the day before the ride, then went outside to do a ride, which was actually way too slow for me because of the pace of the club steady ride, came back and my back was in agony, which still hasn't really subsided fully and it's been two weeks. Looking back going on that ride was a mistake as I was far too tired from the rides I'd done during the week (And my saddle was too high), but hindsight is always perfect.

Camcycle1974

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Paul Onabike wrote:

What size inside leg measurement, and what length cranks do you have? Your cranks may be too long for your size and flexability.

29" (736mm) pant size. 165mm cranks.

Pant (trouser) size is not the same as the inside leg measurement though. Measure it properly then your saddle height can be approximated.

markhewitt1978

Camcycle1974 wrote:

Pant (trouser) size is not the same as the inside leg measurement though. Measure it properly then your saddle height can be approximated.

It was on my first fit which led to the saddle height you see there, so . In any case the question was of crank length, I don't really want to go shorter than 165mm if I can help it, especially since that's the shortest that's readily available for cranks like Ultegra.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

What is the BB- saddle top distance currently?

markhewitt1978

NitrousOxide wrote:

What is the BB- saddle top distance currently?

662mm.

I found my inseam measurement from my previous fit which is 755mm

paul_onabike

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Camcycle1974 wrote:

Pant (trouser) size is not the same as the inside leg measurement though. Measure it properly then your saddle height can be approximated.

It was on my first fit which led to the saddle height you see there, so . In any case the question was of crank length, I don't really want to go shorter than 165mm if I can help it, especially since that's the shortest that's readily available for cranks like Ultegra.

Yes, I can sympathise with you there. You're about the same size as me, and I use 165 on the road, but 160 on the TT bike.
165 really is on the upper limit for me, so I have to visit the physio now and again to get some flex back in my lower back - which helps with the pain. The 160 cranks were expensive but make a big difference when down on the bars.

I would work on flexibility and core strength first before making adjustments, though you do appear to be sitting rather more rearward in the saddle than I could do comfortably, especially on the drops.

debeli

This has been an interesting and illustrative thread. I do not have any firm advice, but I do notice the following:

1. It would be easier to make some sort of judgement if the OP stopped moving occasionally during the video at 90 degree intervals. It is jolly hard to get a clear impression from a few seconds on a turbo.

2. I do notice that the lower back stays in pretty much the same (upright) position whatever the position of the arms and hands. The main adjustment made to accommodate a more 'aero' position seems to be made half way up the spine. This may be because of the back pain and may just as easily be its cause.

3. As other posters have said, do not expect to find expert analysis on the basis of a 20-second turbo snippet popped on a forum.

4. I am troubled (this is the luddite git in me speaking) that a clearly keen cyclist with a nice bike, nice kit and a posh turbo and with two professional fits behind him has not yet achieved the fairly simple prerequisite of comfort on a bicycle. Somebody, somewhere, in Sales or Strategic Aspirational Concepts has made a faux pas.

5. By luck or judgement, I've set road bikes up for all my kids from small to adult and have set things up for quite a few friends too. Thus far, no complaints. My 'wisdom' is based on the musings of older members of clubs who've passed them on after watching me ride on the road. Broadly, as follows:

Seat height: Get it so you can lock your knee with your heel on your pedal. There are subtleties, but that is the crux of it.

Seat fore-aft: With foot forward and crank horizontal, drop a plumb line from the bottom of your knee cap. Adjust to saddle to allow the string to pass through the line of your pedal fulcrum.

Handlebar height/stem length: This is a mix of so many variables, but should not be addressed until the other two have been. You will see as many different bar approaches as there are cyclists, but a good rule of thumb for me has been that the handlebar should obscure the front hub when you're on the hoods.

The OP (in the video) seems quite 'rigid' (and may not ride like that on tarmac, but turbos are turbos). I'd recommend flattening that back (spine). Sticking one's arse out backwards and imposing a sort of concave spinal shape between shoulders and hips can be helpful - do this while in motion.

Without basic comfort, cycling is just pants. I do hope the situation is resolved. Before you spend a penny more on professionals, I'd join a local club and ask some of the old-timers to have a look at your set-up on a club run. Do not mock the old ways - they got a lot right for decades before the laser & micrometer brigade took over the factory.

Good luck and keep at it.

Elfed

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Elfed wrote:

You mention that you've done a lot of indoor riding over winter, but hardly any outdoors.
Due to circumstances I couldn't control I was in a similar position and what I noticed on my first couple of outdoor rides this year was how much my core and upper body strength had depleted just doing the turbo.
My shoulders and back would get painful, legs and lungs fine, felt really weird, worth a thought.

Yes; I think that's definitely part of the issue at play. Notably I was fine all through the winter doing some quite hard efforts and didn't give my back a second thought - my knee on the other hand was another matter! And I'm sure that having strong legs and lungs but no stability is a big factor.

The first few rides of the year however were fine, no particular back issues apart from climbing Crawleyside which is a particularly killer local climb, but a 2 minute rest at the top and I was good.

On the week proceeding when I hurt my back I was on holiday so turbo riding almost every day, including 90 minutes the day before the ride, then went outside to do a ride, which was actually way too slow for me because of the pace of the club steady ride, came back and my back was in agony, which still hasn't really subsided fully and it's been two weeks. Looking back going on that ride was a mistake as I was far too tired from the rides I'd done during the week (And my saddle was too high), but hindsight is always perfect.

Could you be riding too much and tiredness is exaggerating all your aches and pains?

markhewitt1978

Interesting point you make about my back seemingly bending to accommodate my position on the drops etc bending from the middle. I certainly do get more discomfort riding on the drops than the tops.


If that's because of improper riding technique, a lack of flexibility or because I'm accommodating an incorrect position such as too short a cockpit, I have no idea.

markhewitt1978

Debeli wrote:

4. I am troubled (this is the luddite git in me speaking) that a clearly keen cyclist with a nice bike, nice kit and a posh turbo and with two professional fits behind him has not yet achieved the fairly simple prerequisite of comfort on a bicycle. Somebody, somewhere, in Sales or Strategic Aspirational Concepts has made a faux pas.

Try living with it . It's been three years now in various configs but still I haven't managed to get a bike setup I can feel fully comfortable with. Quite frustrating in that I want to put in the effort in my training but whenever I feel like I'm getting somewhere, as I have this year, then it's my joints or back or something that pushes me back, sorry bit whiny there!

There is a physio place in Newcastle which also does retul bike fitting, quite expensive but might be worthwhile doing. One issue is that I'm in the middle of a weight loss programme. Lost 10kg so far this year with 12kg to go which hopefully I'll achieve by August. I'd rather not spend on another fit until I'm the weight I intend to be after that.

keezx

Saddle height looks not good, FAR too high.
Start lowering the saddle 5 mm and do a few rides.
If it feels good or better lower it another 5 mm until it starts feeling too low , then raise it 5 mm.
Costs you nothing and make you wiser.
Seat length (reach) looks good to me, maybe a little too short.
Remark: Lots of people think that sitting short is better for the back but often the opposite is the case.
The pelvis should be tilted forward to prevent draining power from the back, which will hurt after a short time.
Power should come from glutes and quads and NOT by bending the lower back.
As said, start with the saddle and ignore fitters who made you sit too high.

markhewitt1978

Been to see a physio who gave me a lot of information I haven't quite taken in yet.

Says no serious issues but I do have posture issues slumped over too much and my left foot 'goes over' a bit. He used some vibration machine thing on my back and on the back of my legs then put me in various positions and cracked some of my bones!

The basic advice was some core exercises to do in the mornings. Some foam roller exercises and recommended I do Pilates sessions.

Posture issues in the car and at work might be more difficult to resolve.

He recommended I ease back into cycling no more than 15 minutes at first then build up gradually. Although I'm still minded to leave that until next weekend.

andrewjoseph

More info here:

http://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=73840

cycleclinic

If the saddle is too high you will normally feel strain. Sadle height from a fit is a starting point. It may need adjusting downwards. I tend to take a couple of mm of the bike fit suggestion as rule as a starting point.

Kops is pointless. When you are pedalling you will move to position your knees like. If you backside is not at the back of the saddle move it, this works every time. If you have knee problems after proper positiong of the saddle look at the cleats. Check those anyway but proper saddle height should cure most of your fit issues.

Dont be afraid of making changes one at a time. I would flip the stem. If that