Advice on position

markhewitt1978

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZp-EyPA7bc

Short video of me riding my bike on the turbo. I've been having back issues for a while now. Some I've shown this to suggest that my saddle is too high, would that be accurate?

keef66

Looks OK to my untutored eye. Your leg's nowhere near straight at the bottom of the pedal stroke, you don't look to be having to point your toes down (although your feet are partly out of shot at the bottom of the stroke) and your pelvis isn't obviously rocking - but that's easier to spot from behind.

Alex99

markhewitt1978 wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZp-EyPA7bc

Short video of me riding my bike on the turbo. I've been having back issues for a while now. Some I've shown this to suggest that my saddle is too high, would that be accurate?

You saddle looks quite a bit too high to my eyes. I reccommend that you take a look at this page:

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... n-it-be-2/

This link is to a follow up posting which has two videos, where the pedal stroke is not unlike yours. The original article has a link at the top which should be read first.

markhewitt1978

Alex99 wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZp-EyPA7bc

Short video of me riding my bike on the turbo. I've been having back issues for a while now. Some I've shown this to suggest that my saddle is too high, would that be accurate?

You saddle looks quite a bit too high to my eyes. I reccommend that you take a look at this page:

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... n-it-be-2/

This link is to a follow up posting which has two videos, where the pedal stroke is not unlike yours. The original article has a link at the top which should be read first.

I have read that article before and his story about the lady who needed surgery is a bit of a worry, as I do have some consistent back pain at the moment, seeing a physio at the weekend.

Alex99

keef66 wrote:

Looks OK to my untutored eye. Your leg's nowhere near straight at the bottom of the pedal stroke, you don't look to be having to point your toes down (although your feet are partly out of shot at the bottom of the stroke) and your pelvis isn't obviously rocking - but that's easier to spot from behind.

Two replies, two totally opposite views.

@20-40 seconds, I see a lot of ankle movement and toe pointing. Watch closely as the pedalling starts slowly and winds up.

Camcycle1974

Measure in-seam in cm, multiply by 0.887 to get saddle height in cm, multiply by 10 to get saddle height in mm. This is the Greg lemond method which is pretty accurate. My saddle height comes out at 750mm rounded down a bit.

Alex99

Camcycle1974 wrote:

Measure in-seam in cm, multiply by 0.887 to get saddle height in cm, multiply by 10 to get saddle height in mm. This is the Greg lemond method which is pretty accurate. My saddle height comes out at 750mm rounded down a bit.

Not wanting to knock this method which clearly works for some, but I don't understand how it works. For starters, where do you measure to on the saddle, and wouldn't that point depend on which saddle you have, how much flex it has and where exactly you sit on it?

drlodge

Yep saddle looks a bit high to me too, rocking in the hips which is not good.

I note the stem is flipped, how much pressure is going through your arms? You might want to try moving the saddle slightly rearwards too as this would move your CofG backwards and relieve your arms/hands of some weight.

markhewitt1978

drlodge wrote:

I note the stem is flipped, how much pressure is going through your arms?

That was only since last weekend as I was trying a slightly higher bar position to relieve pressure on my back. Looking in the wrong place, as it would seem.

kajjal

keef66 wrote:

Looks OK to my untutored eye. Your leg's nowhere near straight at the bottom of the pedal stroke, you don't look to be having to point your toes down (although your feet are partly out of shot at the bottom of the stroke) and your pelvis isn't obviously rocking - but that's easier to spot from behind.

I was just thinking completely the opposite

To me you are rocking a little on the saddle and your feet are pointing down a bit at the bottom as you stretch to reach the pedals. I would drop the saddle a little to see if it helps.

The point we are both making is having the saddle too high means you over stretch at the bottom of the pedal stroke causing all kinds of injuries. Signs of this are your hips rocking on the saddle, feet pointing down at the bottom of the pedal stroke etc.

Also look up KOPS which helps get the saddle fore / aft position in roughly the right place and you can then adjust to suit. Saddle position is purely to get your legs in the right position and not to adjust reach.

Good luck

lesfirth

I think your saddle is too high. Try ridding with it a bit lower,you can always move it back if needed. Adjusting your saddle height does not cost anything and you can do it as many times as it takes to get it in right position for you.
I have found the Lemond method a good starting point.

JesseD

Saddle definitely looks to high to me, though as been mentioned above a view from behind would show this more.

I used to ride with mine too high which I thought was comfortable although after a while I did get lower back pain and pins and needles in my hands, then had a bike fit and my saddle was lowered considerably (20mm) and moved forward 15mm, my bars were also raised 15mm (though as I've lost weight and become more flexible this has reduced again).

Initially I lost power and was very uncomfortable on the bike, but after an adaptation period of around a month I am now very comfortable on the bike, feel like I have more power than before (though that could be my fitness improving) but the most important bit was no pain at all even on longer rides.

I would get someone to look at your position personally, if you are getting pain, spending a little cash to get the right position would be the best bet, or if you are a member of a club see if anyone there is able to advise. You can do it yourself but you will be forever tinkering with your position and saddle height.

markhewitt1978

JesseD wrote:

I would get someone to look at your position personally, if you are getting pain, spending a little cash to get the right position would be the best bet, or if you are a member of a club see if anyone there is able to advise. You can do it yourself but you will be forever tinkering with your position and saddle height.

The position I have is the result of a professional bike fit, and having two of them, one of which made my comfort on the bike worse and the other making no difference I don't have confidence that a third fit would do any better.

Alex99

markhewitt1978 wrote:

JesseD wrote:

I would get someone to look at your position personally, if you are getting pain, spending a little cash to get the right position would be the best bet, or if you are a member of a club see if anyone there is able to advise. You can do it yourself but you will be forever tinkering with your position and saddle height.

The position I have is the result of a professional bike fit, and having two of them, one of which made my comfort on the bike worse and the other making no difference I don't have confidence that a third fit would do any better.

That's really bad to hear. Woud either of these fitters take another look at you since they haven't helped? Maybe you've lost faith in them anyway.

It depends a bit on how happy you are adjusting things yourself. I do understand, it can feel like you're in a hole with these things, expecially when you're worried about injuring yourself. I'd still strongly reccommend following Steve Hogg's process yourself out on the road armed with some allen keys. Take your time over it.

keef66

Alex99 wrote:

keef66 wrote:

Looks OK to my untutored eye. Your leg's nowhere near straight at the bottom of the pedal stroke, you don't look to be having to point your toes down (although your feet are partly out of shot at the bottom of the stroke) and your pelvis isn't obviously rocking - but that's easier to spot from behind.

Two replies, two totally opposite views.

@20-40 seconds, I see a lot of ankle movement and toe pointing. Watch closely as the pedalling starts slowly and winds up.

The perils of trying to watch Youtube clips in an open plan office I think... I'll have another look when my colleague goes to lunch. Frustratingly I couldn't see what was happening to his feet at the bottom of the pedal stroke...

I have a personal interest since I too have a dodgy lower back and am currently tinkering with saddle height. My one and only bike fit was nearly 9 years ago and I've set bikes up using that saddle height since then. Until recently that's always been comfy, and cycling has relieved rather than caused / exacerbated any back pain. A recent flare up of back trouble however has me thinking that at nearly 59, some things may have tightened up a bit.

markhewitt1978

Alex99 wrote:

That's really bad to hear. Woud either of these fitters take another look at you since they haven't helped? Maybe you've lost faith in them anyway.

To an extent. My trouble is that while I can do saddle height, or reach or whatever, putting them all together into a coherent package is another thing entirely. Then there's the issue of if my bike frame size is suitable at all.

It depends a bit on how happy you are adjusting things yourself. I do understand, it can feel like you're in a hole with these things, expecially when you're worried about injuring yourself. I'd still strongly reccommend following Steve Hogg's process yourself out on the road armed with some allen keys. Take your time over it.

Very happy making adjustments to the bike, pretty easy to do.

fenix

Yep - saddle too high.

JesseD

Sorry to hear you have had 2 bad bike fits, can I ask did they both put the saddle in that position or is that the height etc you have put it in yourself?

I really found the new position after my fit really weird and uncomfortable but I persevered with it and now am more comfortable than ever, I am glad I did it.

I do think it helps to find someone who knows what they are doing, the guy who did mine runs the LBS, is a member of my club and also races to a decent level and has ridden bikes for years, he used a rutel fit but his experience is the bit that is invaluable, not the fancy system.

With regards to fit the most important bit is the saddle position in relation to the BB, once that is right then worry about reach and bar height.

As mentioned above, can you not go back to one of the fitters (or both) and say you are uncomfortable and get them to re-assess you?

After previous fits, did you stick with it for a while to see if you adapted?

markhewitt1978

JesseD wrote:

Sorry to hear you have had 2 bad bike fits, can I ask did they both put the saddle in that position or is that the height etc you have put it in yourself?

It's a long story and not all of which I can remember tbh.

Back to 2014. I was riding ok, no back issues at all, ever, but my knee was giving me problems. Thought it best to go see a fitter. Traditional type fit with tape measures etc. He put my saddle down substantially (24mm from memory), that's the moment the problems started, back pain almost immediately, stuck with that for 4 months until on a local sportive the pain got much worse at which point I put my saddle up again, out on the road, and that did ease issues for a while.

I went back to another fitter at the start of 2015 wrt my back issues, this time a fancy thing on an auto adjustable bike etc. He didn't alter my saddle height just down by 1mm, but did reduce my stem length from 80mm to 70mm (which is what is on now).

Through 2015 I was reasonable but working around issues rather than having proper comfort, several people (mostly on the CTC) forum saw a video of me riding on the road and said my saddle was way too high, so I dropped it 5mm or so, and eventually went back to the same saddle height as fitter No. 1, which is where it's at now.

Onto winter again and riding on the turbo most of the time with no particular issues. Been outside for a few rides, but what did it was actually a fairly (very) steady club ride a couple of Sundays ago where back pain started and it hasn't really gone.

Bet you wish you'd never asked

keef66

OK, I'll have to retract my earlier statement. Your legs, especially the left, do look to be too straight at the bottom of the stroke, and your pelvis is clearly rocking. So the saddle looks to be too high.

I don't think the bike looks too big for you as you've mentioned elsewhere though

noodleman

Looks a touch too high to me too. I changed saddles once on one of my bikes and didn't realise the hight difference from the rails to the top of the saddle was so different (around 20mm). Went on a 120 mile ride and totally knackered my achilles for two months from over extending. Better to go lower and gradually increase it than vice versa.

Alex99

markhewitt1978 wrote:

JesseD wrote:

Sorry to hear you have had 2 bad bike fits, can I ask did they both put the saddle in that position or is that the height etc you have put it in yourself?

It's a long story and not all of which I can remember tbh.

Back to 2014. I was riding ok, no back issues at all, ever, but my knee was giving me problems. Thought it best to go see a fitter. Traditional type fit with tape measures etc. He put my saddle down substantially (24mm from memory), that's the moment the problems started, back pain almost immediately, stuck with that for 4 months until on a local sportive the pain got much worse at which point I put my saddle up again, out on the road, and that did ease issues for a while.

I went back to another fitter at the start of 2015 wrt my back issues, this time a fancy thing on an auto adjustable bike etc. He didn't alter my saddle height just down by 1mm, but did reduce my stem length from 80mm to 70mm (which is what is on now).

Through 2015 I was reasonable but working around issues rather than having proper comfort, several people (mostly on the CTC) forum saw a video of me riding on the road and said my saddle was way too high, so I dropped it 5mm or so, and eventually went back to the same saddle height as fitter No. 1, which is where it's at now.

Onto winter again and riding on the turbo most of the time with no particular issues. Been outside for a few rides, but what did it was actually a fairly (very) steady club ride a couple of Sundays ago where back pain started and it hasn't really gone.

Bet you wish you'd never asked

Those are small adjustments... 1 mm! More difference in a pair of shorts.

I'd not be scarred of dropping it considerably.

markhewitt1978

Alex99 wrote:

Those are small adjustments... 1 mm! More difference in a pair of shorts.

I'd not be scarred of dropping it considerably.

My plan at the moment is to step away from cycling entirely until my back pain subsides - seeing a physio on Saturday for that.

Then on return make a note of the current position then redo the height and layback from scratch and see how I go from there.

Some excellent advice on here already

Alex99

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Alex99 wrote:

Those are small adjustments... 1 mm! More difference in a pair of shorts.

I'd not be scarred of dropping it considerably.

My plan at the moment is to step away from cycling entirely until my back pain subsides - seeing a physio on Saturday for that.

Then on return make a note of the current position then redo the height and layback from scratch and see how I go from there.

Some excellent advice on here already

Good luck. Let us know...

drlodge

Years old rule of thumb: with leg straight and pedal at the bottom, top of foot should just slide underneath the pedal.

Alex99

drlodge wrote:

Years old rule of thumb: with leg straight and pedal at the bottom, top of foot should just slide underneath the pedal.

That's a new one on me... I don't understand it...

Which shoes, which pedals, ankle at 90 degrees, or not? A bit like the heels on pedals and pedal backwards test that you sometimes see. I don't get how it can be useful, but maybe that's just me.

drlodge

Alex99 wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Years old rule of thumb: with leg straight and pedal at the bottom, top of foot should just slide underneath the pedal.

That's a new one on me... I don't understand it...

Which shoes, which pedals, ankle at 90 degrees, or not? A bit like the heels on pedals and pedal backwards test that you sometimes see. I don't get how it can be useful, but maybe that's just me.

Yeh same sort of test. If your leg is straight with either heel on the pedal, or top of foot underneath the pedal, they'll be a bit of a bend in the knee when in the "proper" position. As I said, rule of thumb...or knee.

Alex99

drlodge wrote:

Alex99 wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Years old rule of thumb: with leg straight and pedal at the bottom, top of foot should just slide underneath the pedal.

That's a new one on me... I don't understand it...

Which shoes, which pedals, ankle at 90 degrees, or not? A bit like the heels on pedals and pedal backwards test that you sometimes see. I don't get how it can be useful, but maybe that's just me.

Yeh same sort of test. If your leg is straight with either heel on the pedal, or top of foot underneath the pedal, they'll be a bit of a bend in the knee when in the "proper" position. As I said, rule of thumb...or knee.

Fair enough. I suppose it might get you in the right ball-park.

amrushton

You are seeking advice from a forum - the members of which may have/have not any idea of what constitutes the right position. We know nothing about your physiology, any injuries you may have etc. I would go to a reputable fitter - Cyclefit/Cadence Sport both have good reputations and see what they say. You would be staggered at what Dartfish motion capture and a laser will show.

markhewitt1978

amrushton wrote:

You are seeking advice from a forum - the members of which may have/have not any idea of what constitutes the right position. We know nothing about your physiology, any injuries you may have etc. I would go to a reputable fitter - Cyclefit/Cadence Sport both have good reputations and see what they say. You would be staggered at what Dartfish motion capture and a laser will show.

Of course I'm aware of that. But the position I'm in is from a 'reputable fitter', so who's to say the next one has any better an idea than the first two.

svetty

markhewitt1978 wrote:

amrushton wrote:

You are seeking advice from a forum - the members of which may have/have not any idea of what constitutes the right position. We know nothing about your physiology, any injuries you may have etc. I would go to a reputable fitter - Cyclefit/Cadence Sport both have good reputations and see what they say. You would be staggered at what Dartfish motion capture and a laser will show.

Of course I'm aware of that. But the position I'm in is from a 'reputable fitter', so who's to say the next one has any better an idea than the first two.

Reputable or not, your saddle is definitely too high!