Watts Not Translating To Speed

spredy

Hi there,

I have a reoccurring problem on group rides and in races, and need advice or speculation on how to remedy it. Despite being a weedy 6ft 3 at 68kgs, in group rides and races I have to put out sometimes significantly more power than my heavier counterparts, even going uphill with far less drafting.

An example of which, in a recent race going up a 6% hill for two and a half minutes, I threw out 396 watts, while two other competitors threw out 316 and 345 watts. Now unless the first cyclist was 55kg giving a similar power to weight (there was no one that small) I can't fathom how he had to push so few watts. He also averaged 163 watts for a hilly 8 mile lap while I averaged 250.

The problem is, I can't hang on in races and group rides due to this excessive expenditure of energy. I have an ftp of 315 watts/4.63 watts per kg, so am not unfit, but an extra 40 actual watts per hour than others means my longevity compared to others is limited.

Could positioning really account for the difference? Any ideas? Thanks.

maryka

Is your powermeter accurate? Sounds like it may not be. Being unaero going up a 6% hill should not cost you that much, even if sat upright. Can you borrow another to test against? e.g., if you have cranks, can you borrow pedals or powertap wheel, or vice versa.

How do you fare up steeper hills? The steeper the hill, the slower the speed, the less it matters how aero you are or aren't. Can you do some testing where you ride side-by-side with someone whose weight and power are known, and you compare afterwards?

Hard to tell from one example of course, but it's possible the other guy's is underreading too (which doesn't solve your problem, I know).

napoleond

Sounds like your power meter is well out.

spredy

maryka wrote:

Is your powermeter accurate? Sounds like it may not be. Being unaero going up a 6% hill should not cost you that much, even if sat upright. Can you borrow another to test against? e.g., if you have cranks, can you borrow pedals or powertap wheel, or vice versa.

How do you fare up steeper hills? The steeper the hill, the slower the speed, the less it matters how aero you are or aren't. Can you do some testing where you ride side-by-side with someone whose weight and power are known, and you compare afterwards?

Hard to tell from one example of course, but it's possible the other guy's is underreading too (which doesn't solve your problem, I know).

I recently got a new bike and power meter, as my old one wasn't compatible with the new bottom bracket, and when making the change all my power bests stayed the same, I didn't suddenly start putting out more power, so I think it's accurate.

When riding side by side with a friend whose weight and power is known our numbers are generally within a few watts over a ride, which would lead my to think it's a drafting/position thing. But that wouldn't explain the hill thing?

amaferanga

Zeros included in your power average?

Which power meter?

spredy

amaferanga wrote:

Zeros included in your power average?

Which power meter?

A Quarq Rikken, zeros included!

amaferanga

Well your ftp is good enough to be a competitive 2nd Cat, but what about your power bests for shorter durations? Do you train race-type efforts and/or are you race fit? There's a big difference between fit and being race fit....

I still suspect an iffy power meter though.

spredy

amaferanga wrote:

Well your ftp is good enough to be a competitive 2nd Cat, but what about your power bests for shorter durations? Do you train race-type efforts and/or are you race fit? There's a big difference between fit and being race fit....

I still suspect an iffy power meter though.

Admittedly I'm probably not 'race fit'. I have no sprint from 5-30 seconds. Looking at it now, I heavily weight my training towards the longer aerobic style stuff. This may be an issue.

Best power durations are:
5 seconds: 895 watts
30 seconds: 720
1 minute: 588 watts
2 minutes: 477 watts
5 minutes: 390 watts
20 minutes: 333 watts
60 minutes: 315 watts
90 minutes: 295 watts
120 minutes: 286 watts

Again, all at 68kg, for reference.

spredy

Also, I am very new to racing/fast group rides, so it could be my inexperience and thus inefficiency with group riding. Just don't know if it can really make such a large power difference.

Alex_Simmons/RST

spredy wrote:

Also, I am very new to racing/fast group rides, so it could be my inexperience and thus inefficiency with group riding. Just don't know if it can really make such a large power difference.

On a longer climb, no - it's a paced W/kg effort that determines speed. Same speed should result in pretty much same W/kg (weight of bike + rider) on steeper climbs. If the speed/power relationship diverges a lot, then there is likely something wrong with the measurements. Are you experiencing any torque zero drift?

On the flat terrain however there can be massive differences in power demand between riders depending upon individual aerodynamics, your position in the group, and your group riding skills/nouse. If you are tall and especially if long legged, it's quite likely you have a relatively high aerodynamic drag and that makes a big difference. Couple that with inexperience and the differences can be stark. There is a rider who completed a road stage of the TdF one year with an average power of ~ 100W.

cycleclinic

I think it is mostly rider position and those long pistons/torso/arms i.e large frontal area. Aerodynamics drag is unfriendly.

I would look at your position is there anything you can do to improve it. I am 80kg and to keep up in a race all I need to average is 210W -230W I am 6ft1 (although that is a single sided meter so it is possible actual numbers are 4% more) Hence alex is quite right there is a very large difference in power numbers between riders. Last year there was one race until a crash I had to stop for where I averaged 190W and it was a fast day I was 82kg and I worked on the front.

So something is up examine everything.

amaferanga

thecycleclinic wrote:

..... (although that is a single sided meter so it is possible actual numbers are 4% more)

Could be high, could be low and could be a lot more than 4% out......

cycleclinic

I have a double sided meter too and I know my balance is normally 46%/54% to 48%/52% l/R so 4% is about right.

amaferanga

Are you sure your L/R balance is really that constant?

46/54 would give an 8% error though which is 'big'.

iPete

spredy, do you know what position they entered the climbs in? they could for example be moving to the front of the group ahead of the climbs and and then dropping back. Perhaps something you could try to keep yourself in the bunch.

napoleond

You're 20kg lighter than me, put out 50 more watts than me for an hour. I'm not brilliant but I'm ok in fast chain gangs and a reasonable TTer.
You should in no way be remotely struggling.
Something is very wrong somewhere.

markhewitt1978

What about trying a different bike (easier said than done) could be some issue with that bike.

spredy

I think it may be an accumulative effect. A drafting thing, a bike/pack position thing. Also, I took a look at my bike, and the back wheel doesn't spin for very long on its own, and when removed from the bike, the centre part (sorry, not clued up on terminology) doesn't spin easily, feels as if it's filled with sand or gravel, so a bearings problem? To add to this, when spinning the chain backwards, there's also a lot of resistance, my dads cheap £200 road bike has no chain or wheel resistance, so I think there may be a loss of wattage here too. I'll be off to the bike shop today.

spredy

NapoleonD wrote:

You're 20kg lighter than me, put out 50 more watts than me for an hour. I'm not brilliant but I'm ok in fast chain gangs and a reasonable TTer.
You should in no way be remotely struggling.
Something is very wrong somewhere.

Thinking about it, I can handle and dish out some pain in smaller chaingangs, maybe the speed, and proximity of larger bunches has me more spooked than I realised.

jrich

If those power figures are accurate then you should be running rings around the bunch in a 3/4 RR and group rides should be an absolute breeze.

Also, consider taking up TTing because if you can transfer that power to a TT bike, you will fly.

napoleond

Do you calibrate your pm at the start of every ride?
Something is robbing you of about 100w+ somewhere!

MikeBrew

What is your cadence like ? Spinning too hard too often, can mean that you're paying more highly in energy terms for each MPH than you really need to. Being able to produce power numbers is really only half the story, the other half is being savvy about how and when you expend that power/energy.

jgsi

This is one case of having a power meter being a hindrance to your competitive cycling.
It's obviously preying on your mind.. I'd use the coming summer to build race fitness with chaingangs/structured intervals and races.
See what it all means come September.
We are supposed to enjoy racing .. arent we? not get depressed by them.

spredy

MikeBrew wrote:

What is your cadence like ? Spinning too hard too often, can mean that you're paying more highly in energy terms for each MPH than you really need to. Being able to produce power numbers is really only half the story, the other half is being savvy about how and when you expend that power/energy.

In races it appears up between 90 and 100, but when riding solo between 80 and 85 RPM.

spredy

JGSI wrote:

This is one case of having a power meter being a hindrance to your competitive cycling.
It's obviously preying on your mind.. I'd use the coming summer to build race fitness with chaingangs/structured intervals and races.
See what it all means come September.
We are supposed to enjoy racing .. arent we? not get depressed by them.

I'd like to think of it as useful rather a hindrance, a means of working out where I'm going wrong and actually let me see the end of a race and enjoy racing, haha.

spredy

NapoleonD wrote:

Do you calibrate your pm at the start of every ride?
Something is robbing you of about 100w+ somewhere!

Yep, I calibrate at the start of every ride.

jrich

Do you have race files with power data on Strava or anything like that? You could post them up so we can examine them. Hard to say what the problem is without actually knowing what's happening.

spredy

My few laps of the race: https://www.strava.com/activities/541090032

Mr 163 watts's strava of the race: https://www.strava.com/activities/541124222

napoleond

The other guy is SO much more efficient at riding than you. Look at how often and how long he isn't pedalling. That means when a dig is needed he's much fresher and is putting out more power. That smacks of an experienced racer.
I bet if you looked at his Normalised Power on training peaks it'd be a hell of a lot higher than 163....

spredy

NapoleonD wrote:

The other guy is SO much more efficient at riding than you. Look at how often and how long he isn't pedalling. That means when a dig is needed he's much fresher and is putting out more power. That smacks of an experienced racer.
I bet if you looked at his Normalised Power on training peaks it'd be a hell of a lot higher than 163....

I think his normalised is 216 watts or something. But if you examine him going up the section of the climb called 'newbald steep climb' his watts are dramatically lower, how can that be explained?

Point taken about the efficiency though. Not pedalling for 30 seconds at a time is a sure fire way to save some watts.

napoleond

The only explanation I can see is any combination of riding out of the slipstream, on a very heavy bike, with bad tyres, brakes rubbing, sat bolt upright, with a Powermeter with a borked calibration slope.