Budget £9k, choose me a bike.

ugo.santalucia · April 2016

solboy10 wrote:

been wondering for while why there are less threads appearing on BR but I now think I know why :roll:

It's the opposite. Arguments pump up the numbers, it's when nobody replies or the replies are dull, then you get less forum action

veronese68 · April 2016

This is the third page of MikeBrew slagging off a frame builder because he doesn't like the look of it. I don't know if the guy assaulted his grandmother or something, but it really is time to move on.
To the OP I would say good luck. I struggle to think about spending that much on a bike, but spending vicariously I would probably go for a custom build because most top end bikes are better than I will ever be so I'd want something a bit special that makes me smile when I look at it. I would be more likely to spread it over 2 bikes though. I like the idea of a tandem and something like Dr Lodge's Rourke. I'd probably spec it differently and choose different colours. Not because he is wrong but because we are all different and that's the point of going custom.

PTestTeam · April 2016

MikeBrew wrote:

Ptest wrote:

You can only claim that if you've ridden both. I suspect you haven't

So, on balance, what would YOU say the chance of one bloke building bikes in his garage since 2015, getting a product that is already the equal of that produced, after many years of refinemen, by a company that has been in the business for decades and has huge resources, is ? Fair to middling or non existent That is, if you really thought about it.
I suspect you haven't....
You might also like to note that what I actually said was that, that was my feeling on the subject. I think you'll find tha, despite your view to the contrary, I'm amuniquely qualified to claim that I know my own feeling on a subject, whether or not I've actually ridden one, none or all three of the two bikes in question hock:

You are. I'll grant you that. But your opinion can be ignored on this thread because you haven't owned, ridden or experienced riding a custom carbon frame. You're just assuming it won't be good. I can assure you that as an owner of a custom carbon frame, that is made up of custom drawn carbon tubes, with custom hand wrapped joints that results in a frame that is tailored to my riding style and weight, that my opinion is more valid.

Put it this way. I would listen and value someone's review of a film they've actually seen, and ignore somoene's opinion of a film they haven't seen. No matter how belligerent they were about it.

drlodge · April 2016

I can't opine on how that Filament frame will handle or the quality of the ride. What I can opine on without knowing anything about the builder is:
- there is a rather large distance between the top tube and the top of the head tube. Aesthetically this looks wrong to me and I believe this is poor frame design.
- the stem looks very short. It might be this is just a stem that was laying around, however if its the stem that this frame is to be used with, it looks as though its too short and it would have been better the have a shorter top tube and longer stem.

If I wanted a custom carbon frame and was presented with one that looked like this, I'd be very disappointed. Angry in fact.

ugo.santalucia · April 2016

The Lemon looks alright to me, you're a bunch of snobs... it's just pipes innit? :-)

MikeBrew · April 2016

@ PTest
I think that you're missing the point completely and, in doing so, putting words into my mouth. So much so that we are, essentially, talking at cross purposes. This :

Ptest wrote:

You're just assuming it won't be good

is a mis-comprehension on your part.
In essence, what I actually said was that, despite being very expensively "Bespoke", it would appear highly unlikely that a new builder's early offerings would be an equal to the factory built products of the likes of Cannondale. Products developed and refined over many years, by not one but multiple skilled engineers - rather than a lone Joe Bloggs . Products developed, not in some blokes garage, but in dedicated research facilities. Products developed with the aid of Pro teams, rather than a quick spin around the cul-de-sac by the builder himself. Products developed with the revenue of decades of revenue from successful bike sales, rather than financed by a Nat West small business start up loan. Where that is only my common sense opinion, I think what is a fact is that Filaments products remain - by any meaningful measure - unproven.
As I said before it is only an opinion that he is highly unlikely to get it spot on first time, though common sense does appear to have something to do with such an opinion. If a one-man-band in his garage, with only a years experience can equal the best efforts of the likes of Cannondale , it pretty much much begs the questions Why are more people doing it ? ; What took the big manufactures so long to get a decent product ; Why is he charging so much for it ?
In truth though, a warts and all review of such products is unlikely to ever be forth coming as not enough folk will ever own one for long enough. Also who is ever likely to stand up and say "Oh yes that £2700 custom frameset I bought turned out to be a complete Lemon"... Of course it may turn out to be a decent product, but at this stage in it's history, who could possibly really say that they know ?
Which brings me neatly back to my overall point - sorry to labour it but it seems to get missed every time - People are surprising happy to shell out large chunks of cash for "exclusivity" , the product doesn't necessarily have to be stellar, superior, better, good, as good or even proven.... Filament, being so very unproven, just happens to be a perfect case in point.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with a pure vanity purchase if that whats floats your boat. And there's nothing wrong with calling it what it is either - where on earth you get the idea that saying it like it is, is belligerent God only knows.

Ps you neatly avoided attempting an answer to my question to you :

MikeBrew wrote:

So, on balance, what would YOU say the chance of one bloke building bikes in his garage since 2015, getting a product that is already the equal of that produced, after many years of refinemen, by a company that has been in the business for decades and has huge resources, is ? Fair to middling or non existent That is, if you really thought about it.
I suspect you haven't....

Take your time............

MikeBrew · April 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The Lemon looks alright to me, you're a bunch of snobs... it's just pipes innit? :-)

Very expensive pipes, but pipes all the same. Still think he should of left his surname on those pipes though, despite the potential Fanny related jibes.
Distancing oneself from the product is strange in the world of bespoke frame building. Maybe he fell out with his dad !

ugo.santalucia · April 2016

MikeBrew wrote:

Very expensive pipes, but pipes all the same.

I think it's market price... is 2.7K not the price of a NON-bespoke Trek-alized frame made by an 8 years old boy in China?

MikeBrew · April 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MikeBrew wrote:

Very expensive pipes, but pipes all the same.

I think it's market price... is 2.7K not the price of a NON-bespoke Trek-alized frame made by an 8 years old boy in China?

Very possibly so - though it might depend on whether it's TCT , OCLV or even MUMN . And, in fairness, that poor wee lad doesn't get to have his family name on the down-tube either.

ugo.santalucia · April 2016

MikeBrew wrote:

Very possibly so - though it might depend on whether it's TCT or OCLV . And, in fairness, that poor wee lad doesn't get to have his family name on the down-tube either.

I think "filament" comes from the process used to manufacture carbon tubes, which is filament winding, it stands out from the mass produced in mould monocoques and gives the exact idea of what it is: a bespoke carbon product. If you have a good surname, like "Feather" you can use it, ifyou have a bad one, it's bestto brand your company like this... how about Mr Enigma?

I think the finish is beautiful, in fact I thought it was a steel frame, so smooth are the transitions between tubes. If you don't like the long head tube... well, I don't like it either, but maybe it makes sense for the user. It would be good to have the insight of one of the local frame builders.

I think there far too many strong opinions about frame geometry from folks who have never designed, let alone built, a frame themselves.

MikeBrew · April 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MikeBrew wrote:

Very possibly so - though it might depend on whether it's TCT or OCLV . And, in fairness, that poor wee lad doesn't get to have his family name on the down-tube either.

I think the finish is beautiful, in fact I thought it was a steel frame, so smooth are the transitions between tubes.

Indeed, and as a first time departure from the Impec like carbon lugged approach of his previous builds, lets hope he's hit a hole in one. Seeing those smooth transitions sans cracks, after time and miles can and will be the only true test.

thepeginator · April 2016

I've read the original post but haven't waded through the comments so apologies if I'm repeating something already posted.

With a budget of 9k my immediate answer would be:
- Specialized Venge Vias
- Trek Madone

But then you say you don't want anything too racey. Also, while you could afford the initial outlay - I'm not sure how you'd feel about the ongoing costs. For example my LBS are a Specialized dealer. The head mechanic and owner had to go on a specific course with Specialized to teach him how to build the Venge Vias as it's THAT integrated and specific. In addition, because of the level of integration, changing a brake cable is a half day job and therefore comes with a workshop bill of £80. So those bikes really are for the select few with the time and money to dedicate to it.

My other choice would be something like a top of the line mason resolution/definition (dura-ace di2, carbon wheels etc) - but to be honest apart from the blingy groupset/wheels it's not very different to what you already have. It's essentially a road disc bike with a slightly relaxed geometry clearance for bigger tyres.

So my choice would probably be...

TL:DR
- Carbon Endurance Bike (with caliper brakes): Canyon CF / Defy Advanced / Roubaix / Domane etc.
OR
- Just buy some nice wheels for the Genesis e.g. Zipp 303/handbuilt Carbon Clincher Disc, transform the ride at a fraction of the cost?

ugo.santalucia · April 2016

thepeginator wrote:

I've read the original post but haven't waded through the comments so apologies if I'm repeating something already posted.

With a budget of 9k my immediate answer would be:
- Specialized Venge Vias
- Trek Madone

But then you say you don't want anything too racey. Also, while you could afford the initial outlay - I'm not sure how you'd feel about the ongoing costs. For example my LBS are a Specialized dealer. The head mechanic and owner had to go on a specific course with Specialized to teach him how to build the Venge Vias as it's THAT integrated and specific. In addition, because of the level of integration, changing a brake cable is a half day job and therefore comes with a workshop bill of £80. So those bikes really are for the select few with the time and money to dedicate to it.

My other choice would be something like a top of the line mason resolution/definition (dura-ace di2, carbon wheels etc) - but to be honest apart from the blingy groupset/wheels it's not very different to what you already have. It's essentially a road disc bike with a slightly relaxed geometry clearance for bigger tyres.

So my choice would probably be...

TL:DR
- Carbon Endurance Bike (with caliper brakes): Canyon CF / Defy Advanced / Roubaix / Domane etc.
OR
- Just buy some nice wheels for the Genesis e.g. Zipp 303/handbuilt Carbon Clincher Disc, transform the ride at a fraction of the cost?

Good post, like your comments re. the Venge.
I had a croix de fer, the problem is the sluggish frame and fork... you'd have to change that, as well as the wheels...

mrb123 · April 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

thepeginator wrote:

I've read the original post but haven't waded through the comments so apologies if I'm repeating something already posted.

With a budget of 9k my immediate answer would be:
- Specialized Venge Vias
- Trek Madone

But then you say you don't want anything too racey. Also, while you could afford the initial outlay - I'm not sure how you'd feel about the ongoing costs. For example my LBS are a Specialized dealer. The head mechanic and owner had to go on a specific course with Specialized to teach him how to build the Venge Vias as it's THAT integrated and specific. In addition, because of the level of integration, changing a brake cable is a half day job and therefore comes with a workshop bill of £80. So those bikes really are for the select few with the time and money to dedicate to it.

My other choice would be something like a top of the line mason resolution/definition (dura-ace di2, carbon wheels etc) - but to be honest apart from the blingy groupset/wheels it's not very different to what you already have. It's essentially a road disc bike with a slightly relaxed geometry clearance for bigger tyres.

So my choice would probably be...

TL:DR
- Carbon Endurance Bike (with caliper brakes): Canyon CF / Defy Advanced / Roubaix / Domane etc.
OR
- Just buy some nice wheels for the Genesis e.g. Zipp 303/handbuilt Carbon Clincher Disc, transform the ride at a fraction of the cost?

Good post, like your comments re. the Venge.
I had a croix de fer, the problem is the sluggish frame and fork... you'd have to change that, as well as the wheels...

Agreed. I'm a Croix de Fer owner and fan but I'm not sure that any carbon wheels in the world would turn it into a superbike.

mercia_man · April 2016

drlodge wrote:

I can't opine on how that Filament frame will handle or the quality of the ride. What I can opine on without knowing anything about the builder is:
- there is a rather large distance between the top tube and the top of the head tube. Aesthetically this looks wrong to me and I believe this is poor frame design.
- the stem looks very short. It might be this is just a stem that was laying around, however if its the stem that this frame is to be used with, it looks as though its too short and it would have been better the have a shorter top tube and longer stem.

If I wanted a custom carbon frame and was presented with one that looked like this, I'd be very disappointed. Angry in fact.

The extended head tube may look wrong to 21st century cyclists impressed by slammed stems but there are certain advantages to this design.

Tony Oliver, nuclear physicist and renowned 1980s frame builder wrote about extended head tubes in his seminal work on custom frame design and construction. He used extended head tubes on his expedition bikes, allowing a normal height top tube and standover height with a high bottom bracket for off-road. An extended head tube also provides more support for the steerer tube than a load of spacers, thus stiffening up the front end and improving handling for a tall rider wanting an upright position.

I agree the stem looks a bit short. But I would rather have a longer top tube and shorter stem than a shorter top tube, longer stem and toe overlap.

But, as you know with your lovely Rourke, the beauty of having a custom frame is that you can have exactly what suits you rather than a mass-produced monocoque with a catch-all design for everyone from a 65kg whippet to a 100kg-plus hunk.

kleinstroker · April 2016

Has the OP actually bothered to get involved in the discussion?

tomsdad · December 2016

MikeBrew wrote:

Does a lot of money on a bespoke frame necessarily mean it's better, in any remotely tangible or demonstrable way, than a factory built alternative though ? Surely small frame builders lack the R+D budget and experience of the like of Cannondale who have been in the industry far longer, and hence can produce highly competent frames without asking exorbitant prices...

Case in point, look at this lemon

Built by thep reviously named Craddock Cycles , recently renamed Filament - presumably due to no one wanting to be called a Fanny on a Craddock- this is a circa £2700 custom built frame, and yetit has a has couple of inches of stem spacers and a minuscule stem ? Not to mention the head-tube towering over the top tube by a couple of inches. Custom built - Really ? Or just really badly ?
Well it's different and some people will pay a lot of money for that. To some insecure souls it doesn't even have to be "superior", "better" or even "good" just different. :roll:
Getting things right often occurs slowly over time, with lots of mistakes along the way. The likes of Cannondale have served their apprenticeship and are now in the master craftsman league. Why pay through the nose to an apprentice for one of their early Mary Shelly-esque creations ? Just to be different ?

It's my bike I had it built by Richard as i could not find anything that i was comfy on. I have been riding it for the last 6 months or so and can assure you it is a lovely ride . You want to see a long head tube i will send you a picture of my custom built Argos if you want You can fit a drink bottle in there.

tomsdad · December 2016

Gweeds wrote:

What you've done there Mike is pick a custom frame, decided it's wrong, and then called it a lemon without knowing anything about why the rider and builder have ended up there.

That's why it's called custom.

Thank you When he grows up to be a fully grown person ie over 2 metre tall he might want to go custom built(or have to ) or buy a stem extender longer stem longer seat post laid bak of course and then have your knees hit your chin

tomsdad · December 2016

Oh and where does the 9k come from It certainly was not that much even with Enve forks through axles, discs and di2 etc

socrates · December 2016

What really will happen is that after spending that amount of money you will see a bike next which you like even better. Second hand value of the 9k one through the floor.

flanners1 · December 2016

kleinstroker wrote:

Has the OP actually bothered to get involved in the discussion?

I love these 'Ive got a huge amount of money and have not a clue how to spend it..I am unable to research and have no ability to make a decision on my own' :roll: type posts.

'Budget £9K choose me a bike' :oops:

paulmon · December 2016

MikeBrew wrote:

Does a lot of money on a bespoke frame necessarily mean it's better, in any remotely tangible or demonstrable way, than a factory built alternative though ? Surely small frame builders lack the R+D budget and experience of the like of Cannondale who have been in the industry far longer, and hence can produce highly competent frames without asking exorbitant prices...

Case in point, look at this lemon

Built by thep reviously named Craddock Cycles , recently renamed Filament - presumably due to no one wanting to be called a Fanny on a Craddock- this is a circa £2700 custom built frame, and yetit has a has couple of inches of stem spacers and a minuscule stem ? Not to mention the head-tube towering over the top tube by a couple of inches. Custom built - Really ? Or just really badly ?
Well it's different and some people will pay a lot of money for that. To some insecure souls it doesn't even have to be "superior", "better" or even "good" just different. :roll:
Getting things right often occurs slowly over time, with lots of mistakes along the way. The likes of Cannondale have served their apprenticeship and are now in the master craftsman league. Why pay through the nose to an apprentice for one of their early Mary Shelly-esque creations ? Just to be different ?

Buy a C60 in that size with the high geometry and it too will have a couple of inches of head tube showing over the top tube. Are you saying the C60 is a really badly designed frame as well. I don't know the reason for it but I suspect there is a very good one.

ugo.santalucia · December 2016

Flanners1 wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

Has the OP actually bothered to get involved in the discussion?

I love these 'Ive got a huge amount of money and have not a clue how to spend it..I am unable to research and have no ability to make a decision on my own' :roll: type posts.

'Budget £9K choose me a bike' :oops:

Was it not your dream that of becoming a shopping adviser?

fenix · December 2016

Sooooo - what did you go with in the end Mr Guernsey ?

flanners1 · December 2016

[*]

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Flanners1 wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

Has the OP actually bothered to get involved in the discussion?

I love these 'Ive got a huge amount of money and have not a clue how to spend it..I am unable to research and have no ability to make a decision on my own' :roll: type posts.

'Budget £9K choose me a bike' :oops:

Was it not your dream that of becoming a shopping adviser?

No I don't think so.

I have realised just like Sky, retail therapy has marginal gains

Some info from the purchaser about what they wanted or required would be a start, still it makes us all reconsider our 'dream build' options and cash flow once again.

shortfall · December 2016

I had 3.5k to spend a couple of years ago and went bespoke titanium. For the same sort of money as a cookie cutter, generic carbon bike (albeit a very good one) I got a one off frame that's made to measure and Campagnolo Record groupset and Zonda wheels. I guess there's bike builders and bike builders but anything that's coming out of a factory, no matter how good it might be, is going to be full of inherent compromises. It has to fit a range of different cyclists with a range of different weights, fitness levels and techniques. There're many good examples of such bikes but having owned a few in my time I can testify that going bespoke was the best thing I ever did. You have something unique, something made by a craftsman, something that will (in the case of steel or titanium) last you at least a lifetime and will be a joy to ride because the guy who made it knows as exactly what you want out of it. It's a bit like the difference between an Aston Martin and a Ford Fiesta turbo. The Fiesta is probably nearly as quick on a racetrack and doing 0 to 60 away from the lights, but you don't really lust after it and within 12 months of owning it you'll be bored to tears cos it's just another Ford. The Aston on the other hand will look, sound and feel just as good as the day you bought it ten years down the line, it may even improve with age, and will have a character and aura about it that the Ford can never match. You'll want to polish it and just stare at it and you'll cars about every little blemish or piece of bird sh1t it gets on it. It's not that Fords are bad cars, it's just that you want the Aston Martin a gazillion times more. Just my two pennorth worth. I hope you get something you love. Good luck.

ugo.santalucia · December 2016

Shortfall wrote:

I had 3.5k to spend a couple of years ago and went bespoke titanium. For the same sort of money as a cookie cutter, generic carbon bike (albeit a very good one) I got a one off frame that's made to measure and Campagnolo Record groupset and Zonda wheels. I guess there's bike builders and bike builders but anything that's coming out of a factory, no matter how good it might be, is going to be full of inherent compromises. It has to fit a range of different cyclists with a range of different weights, fitness levels and techniques. There're many good examples of such bikes but having owned a few in my time I can testify that going bespoke was the best thing I ever did. You have something unique, something made by a craftsman, something that will (in the case of steel or titanium) last you at least a lifetime and will be a joy to ride because the guy who made it knows as exactly what you want out of it. It's a bit like the difference between an Aston Martin and a Ford Fiesta turbo. The Fiesta is probably nearly as quick on a racetrack and doing 0 to 60 away from the lights, but you don't really lust after it and within 12 months of owning it you'll be bored to tears cos it's just another Ford. The Aston on the other hand will look, sound and feel just as good as the day you bought it ten years down the line, it may even improve with age, and will have a character and aura about it that the Ford can never match. You'll want to polish it and just stare at it and you'll cars about every little blemish or piece of bird sh1t it gets on it. It's not that Fords are bad cars, it's just that you want the Aston Martin a gazillion times more. Just my two pennorth worth. I hope you get something you love. Good luck.

This is possibly the worst comparison I've come across... if you want to compare bespoke Vs Factory, I don't think the world of cars is a good example... there is very little in the way of Bespoke, including the likes of Aston Martin or Rolls Royce, you might be able to choose the trimmings. I guess a better comparison is a Saville Row made to measure suit Vs one off the peg sold by Armani or other Fashion house... one is made to be worn for 20 years, the other is made to be admired for a season or two

shortfall · December 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

I had 3.5k to spend a couple of years ago and went bespoke titanium. For the same sort of money as a cookie cutter, generic carbon bike (albeit a very good one) I got a one off frame that's made to measure and Campagnolo Record groupset and Zonda wheels. I guess there's bike builders and bike builders but anything that's coming out of a factory, no matter how good it might be, is going to be full of inherent compromises. It has to fit a range of different cyclists with a range of different weights, fitness levels and techniques. There're many good examples of such bikes but having owned a few in my time I can testify that going bespoke was the best thing I ever did. You have something unique, something made by a craftsman, something that will (in the case of steel or titanium) last you at least a lifetime and will be a joy to ride because the guy who made it knows as exactly what you want out of it. It's a bit like the difference between an Aston Martin and a Ford Fiesta turbo. The Fiesta is probably nearly as quick on a racetrack and doing 0 to 60 away from the lights, but you don't really lust after it and within 12 months of owning it you'll be bored to tears cos it's just another Ford. The Aston on the other hand will look, sound and feel just as good as the day you bought it ten years down the line, it may even improve with age, and will have a character and aura about it that the Ford can never match. You'll want to polish it and just stare at it and you'll cars about every little blemish or piece of bird sh1t it gets on it. It's not that Fords are bad cars, it's just that you want the Aston Martin a gazillion times more. Just my two pennorth worth. I hope you get something you love. Good luck.

This is possibly the worst comparison I've come across... if you want to compare bespoke Vs Factory, I don't think the world of cars is a good example... there is very little in the way of Bespoke, including the likes of Aston Martin or Rolls Royce, you might be able to choose the trimmings. I guess a better comparison is a Saville Row made to measure suit Vs one off the peg sold by Armani or other Fashion house... one is made to be worn for 20 years, the other is made to be admired for a season or two

OK, maybe the comparison wasn't great but the point still stands. Treks, Specialiseds, Giants, etc are everywhere and whilst they might get better the more you spend, they're still built to meet the needs of a vast number of different riders. They have a generic look and feel (or lack of feel) about them and in my opinion they're not particularly desirable. I don't knock anyone who wants to buy one mind you, they just don't float my boat is all.

tomsdad · December 2016

Shortfall wrote:

I had 3.5k to spend a couple of years ago and went bespoke titanium. For the same sort of money as a cookie cutter, generic carbon bike (albeit a very good one) I got a one off frame that's made to measure and Campagnolo Record groupset and Zonda wheels. I guess there's bike builders and bike builders but anything that's coming out of a factory, no matter how good it might be, is going to be full of inherent compromises. It has to fit a range of different cyclists with a range of different weights, fitness levels and techniques. There're many good examples of such bikes but having owned a few in my time I can testify that going bespoke was the best thing I ever did. You have something unique, something made by a craftsman, something that will (in the case of steel or titanium) last you at least a lifetime and will be a joy to ride because the guy who made it knows as exactly what you want out of it. It's a bit like the difference between an Aston Martin and a Ford Fiesta turbo. The Fiesta is probably nearly as quick on a racetrack and doing 0 to 60 away from the lights, but you don't really lust after it and within 12 months of owning it you'll be bored to tears cos it's just another Ford. The Aston on the other hand will look, sound and feel just as good as the day you bought it ten years down the line, it may even improve with age, and will have a character and aura about it that the Ford can never match. You'll want to polish it and just stare at it and you'll cars about every little blemish or piece of bird sh1t it gets on it. It's not that Fords are bad cars, it's just that you want the Aston Martin a gazillion times more. Just my two pennorth worth. I hope you get something you love. Good luck.

jgsi · December 2016

Cant make an off the peg bike fit you like a glove?
You need another fckin hobby mate.

My CAAD10 will be awesome with its 200 quid custom paint job next year.

Budget £9k, choose me a bike.

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