My commuting bike lasted 4 months....
Comments
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Where has this bike been stored is my question? Indoors? In a shed/garage? Outside covered? Outside not covered?
I ride my commuting bike every day in all weathers and have to leave it uncovered at work even when raining because bike storage is crap. At home it lives in a shed. As above I use a decent wet lube and clean the bike and chain maybe once a month. It builds up a disgusting grime but once washed off and wiped down the chain and cassette is still reasonably shiny and rust free.
The only time I have ever seen something like this was on an old bike of mine when I was lodging in a house and they put my bike outside under a leaky bike cover over Christmas while I was away (without asking me). When I got back the chain and cassette was bright orange with superficial rust which was rather annoying. So I'm wondering if the bike has been left outside/somewhere damp for an extended period? Even those bike covers aren't great as the bike just ends up surrounded by damp air when it's raining.
As for the hub, it was probably just cheap and that's why the seal broke.0 -
The bike is in a garage at night when not being used and is exposed to the elements when it's locked up during my working day. 8.30-6pm
I clean it once a week, but I clearly haven't done enough when I've ridden home in the wet. I used a specific chain lube that Evans sold me.
anyway a bit of an of an update..
The bill of £195 came as a bit of a shock. When the shop called me with the quote they were adamant that I needed all the parts listed to get my bike on the road. I was horrified.
Turns out all I need to pay is £22 for the part and £20 labour….. Customer services are now saying that the other £153 were just “advisory items” “like you’d see on an MOT certificate for your car”.. If I wasn’t such a tight git I would have paid it without thinking. They are a sales operation not a cyclist friendly operation. I assume LBS means Local Bike Shop? I will be upgrading the parts, but I’ll be doing it willingly with an indi bike shop, and not tricked in to it by Evans.
Anyway, the whole experience has been a learning curve in terms of bike maintenance. I’ve watched a million youtube vids on the subject now and I promise never to let it get in that state again.
Again, thanks for all your help.
Nick.0 -
If the "hot soapy water" was washing up liquid it could have made things worse. Washing up liquid contains salt and strong detergent so will strip everything. Best to use a dedicated bike wash like muckoff. Commuting in the rain requires daily chain lubricating.0
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I Have used mucoff. It's a pink spray bottle which you spray on and leave to work before washing off. It works well. I use a low pressure hose to wet the bike first and wash off. In the past it's been a bucket of washing up liquid or even car wash stuff on my bike as a kid. My dad used to make us wash our bikes regularly and even use chrome polish to keep the shiny bits clean / rust free. That was years ago and I never kept it up however with a little care I still kept my 25 year old road bike on the road and in mint condition. Shame I started to commute on it because the roads near work destroyed it.
The photos from the OP look bad and I think I'm in the camp that feels the OP hasn't looked after it that well. I'm irregular with my maintenance but have never had a bike go like that.
Glad it's a smaller bill now but I'd look into maintenance a bit more and even learn how to do a bit more than just clean it. I guess you'll be replacing the other parts in due course, spreading out the cost of course. At least you can still enjoy your bike with the smaller immediate bill. Happy riding!0 -
Great news about the bill reduction. A new cassette and either a hub replacement or thorough clean and seal is all it really needs.
Salt on the roads in winter is a sod when combined with rain, which is why you need to ensure you rinse down with fresh water and then re-lube the moving parts so often.Carrera Subway 2015
Boardman Hybrid Team 20140 -
redbikejohn wrote:If the "hot soapy water" was washing up liquid it could have made things worse. Washing up liquid contains salt and strong detergent so will strip everything. Best to use a dedicated bike wash like muckoff. Commuting in the rain requires daily chain lubricating.
No way - use a decent wet lube and clean every couple weeks if you've ridden in the rain unless really bad...0 -
I'm properly slack with my maintenance and my bike is nowhere near that bad. But my bike lives indoors when it's not being ridden.
I lube the chain every week or so with 3in1, WD40 and relube if it's been raining heavily. I don't wash it often though, maybe that's the secret, it's done 3000+ miles and is on it's second chain. Other than tyres and one gear cable it's all still standard.Saracen Tenet 3 - 2015 - Dead - Replaced with a Hack Frame
Voodoo Bizango - 2014 - Dead - Hit by a car
Vitus Sentier VRS - 20170 -
Just to say to those who are using washing up liquid to clean their bikes - please stop doing this. It has salt in it and can damage your drivetrain; if you don't want to use specialist bike cleaning product, use laundry detergent, which does not contain salt.0
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Unless you leave it on and dont rinse then it wont damage your drivetrain - rinse it off and there is nothing left to do any damage. I have been using it for years and no problems. In fact, when I strip down, I leave the chain and cassette and chainrings in a bowl of it to soak and then scrub them.0
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And to those who use your bikes in Winter on roads, don't, there's salt on the roads. Oh, and don't live by the sea because there's salt in the air.
There's a million and one things in the environment that are more likely to cause significant damage to bikes than a bit of Fairy Liquid once or twice a week.0 -
salt on the roads IS more of a problem, because you are more likely to put the bike away without rinsing it off. I try and run the chain through a tea towel briefly to dry it and wipe some crud off when the roads are salty, if I can be bothered.0
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I don't bother with much bike cleaning and mine lives in a conservatory/dry shed.prawny wrote:I'm properly slack with my maintenance and my bike is nowhere near that bad. But my bike lives indoors when it's not being ridden.
I've had a freehub get full of mud once after lots of riding along flooded mountain tracks and leaving it, however it's only happened once and I put it down to something being wrong with a seal.
I've never had a cassette rust/corrode like that. If the bike gets put away wet then I might get isolated spots of rust on it, but it doesn't go dull and matt.0 -
Well, looks like it's not just you that's managed to do this... viewtopic.php?f=40004&t=13061706
This thread made me realise I'd not checked mine despite striping down the rest of the bike...
What did they actually charge you new parts for?Intent on Cycling Commuting on a budget, but keep on breaking/crashing/finding nice stuff to buy.
Bike 1 (Broken) - Bike 2(Borked) - Bike 3(broken spokes) - Bike 4( Needs Work) - Bike 5 (in bits) - Bike 6* ...0 -
Cannot recommend the LBS route enough. I too bought a commuter under a cycle-to-work scheme. I was restricted to the big H and ended up with their own-brand C at £350. In 18 months and 2,000 miles it's had a new chain, new brake cables, new headset and a new bottom bracket. It was all covered by a 3-year service scheme and they were surprisingly open about the low quality of the parts that needed replacing. I was content with the service, if not happy overall. When the bottom bracket came loose again I tore up the service agreement and took it to my LBS. They quoted £20 to fix it and then only charged me £10 because it only needed tightening. We presume it was due to a poor installation.
I now hate the bike, but it's not all bad... I soon caught the bug and now I have a road bike from my LBS. The difference in quality and service is simply astounding. I also learnt a thing or two by talking to my LBS. Things like don't use a pressure washer, do keep the chain clean, don't over lube, don't get degreaser in the bottom bracket, and odd things like lift the front wheel to vertical after cleaning and do lube the brake cables on the commuter but not on the road bike. Turns out cleaning is fun. Who knew?!0 -
Another update, So Evans are refusing to fix any part of my bike now unless I go for everything on the quote. Saying that, well here is the email…..
Hi Nick,
I am still waiting to get final pricing on the part we need for your wheel.
I have been talking at length though with our customer relations team and my workshop manager and we have additional concerns. I have been looking at your original quote today and we have a mutual concern that only doing half the job could still leave the bike in a less than road-worthy condition.
If we undertake part of the job and give the bike back to you in a condition we still consider to be sub-standard, were anything to go wrong as a result of the other components failing, it would be hard for us to absolve ourself of responsibility.
It is the opinion of both customer relations and the workshop that if we aren't able to complete the whole job, to avoid any potential liability, we should refuse to carry out any work at all.
I know this is not what you want to hear but I do have to ensure that I make the most sensible and professional decision for our store and our reputation. I am sure you can understand that a dissatisfied customer is bad for our reputation but a customer involved in an accident because of a decision we made is far worse.
Kind regards,
Evans
So I’ve had enough. I tell them not to touch It.
I pick it up and deliver it to my local bike shop. I apologise profusely for buying it elsewhere (all the other bikes in our stable come from here) and he has a look..
I do need a new wheel, and it’s only because the part on the original is so cheap and likely spurious, it would be impossible to source a replacement. Everything else is absolutely fine.
Lesson…. ONLY GO TO YOUR TRUSTED LOCAL BIKE SHOP0 -
I am sorry, but what is a 'spurious' part? I would be surprised if they couldnt source a replacement - more likely they couldnt be bothered with the effort and/or wanted to sell you a new wheel. And as for saying everything else is fine - it certainly doesnt look that way in the photos. I dont think your LBS comes off any better in this based on my evaluation...
Having said that, yes the original wheels will be cheap and not very good, but unless you are paying a reasonable sum of money, I cant see the LBS putting any better a wheel on. You can get 'cheap' wheels that are actually pretty good on the web but not so much in an LBS.
The communication from Evans is a little strange and doesnt read well, but I have to wonder if it is the result of a protracted and complicated dialogue of someone that they perceive to be a difficult customer that they would rather draw a line under now and send you elsewhere. We dont know the detail of what led up to this point. I am sure that if you had kept the bike at home and just brought the wheel in, asking them to fix it, that they would do that and not worry about the rest of the bike. I suspect they are anticipating you coming back and blaming them for something else if they just do half a job. They have just tried to put it in more 'diplomatic' wording that doesnt quite make sense.0 -
The chain, cassette and probably chainrings are worn through lack of maintenance. That is a fair chunk of the repair bill. The freewheel shouldn't have failed though (as it should be sealed from water ingress) and should be considered separately. I guess the new wheel is suggested due to the wheel bearings being knackered from water ingress. I'd argue that the freewheel / wheel bearings are not fit for purpose so should be covered y sale of goods act. You shouldn't be expected to re-grease wheel bearings in the first 6 months of use, even in the bike is stored outside.0
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Wolfsbane2k wrote:Ok, so you've had some more educated feedback while I wrote my missive. Looks like they generally align with my thoughts.
You could be tempermental and ask them to repair/refund the bike as "Not fit for purpose" under the Sales of Goods act/ SADFART rules - (see MSE), bypassing the warranty, and therefore ensuring labour is covered too, but that's a different path.
But it might place you in a position where the repair is cheaper than the original proposed £200.
All else aside rebuilding a hub isn't a "consumer" activity.
The bike was sold (or technically leased) for commuting in the UK so whereas we might strip hubs and check seals and grease this is for your average consumer a once a year trip to the LBS. (And then I think that's an extra to a "service") so quite honestly not what your average commuter is expected to do FURTHER if they did they would doubtless void warranty.
Neither does the average consumer have tools for removing a cassette and the rust (which is anyway superficial) is on the inside and not something you can easily see.
Neither can I see where £200 comes from.... I can certainly spend £200 on a chain, cassette and some seals/bearings but not on a £500 bike! They must be adding 2hrs labour at £60/hr.... which given the circumstances you'd expect free.
I'll also admit my commuter bike has been outside all winter (with some wet oil applied in Sept after last use last year) and its fine! It's certainly nothing special but the shimano cassette/hubs are both 6 years old and still fine....
I had a SOGA claim I made on a second hand car. After the turbo blew TWICE .... and they came back with a similar response ...I should have stripped and cleaned the turbo.... yep right.... They were stupid enough to let this go to small claims court by which time I added costs, vehicle hire and at least £500 of time wasted.
They had their 10 seconds in court.... where the judge gave them one last chance to settle (after strongly hinting they should) and come back in a hour and they sensibly did.
The question is perhaps if this is SOGA or consumer credit given its the cycle to work scheme.
I'll also say my local Evans (Woking) is very good.
I bought my kids first bike there and when I wanted a 32T freewheel they were unable to supply BUT they did fit it for free. (OK its 5 mins but they also checked chain length)
I bought a BB from them Tuesday....as I wanted to try the length before buying (heavily/extreme customised kids bike not even bought from them and had to decide between a 113 and 188 moving from a 122) .. and they let me try the BB then fitted the new one and cranks for free. (I didn't have the heart to tell them I was pulling the cranks off this weekend anyway but it was a nice gesture)0 -
The difficulty here is that the bike shop and us forumites have no way of knowing how the hub has been treated. Yes, this should not have failed under normal circumstances, but if the hub was submerged or caked in mud as mountain bike hubs are sometimes, then seals fail. Not always but sometimes. Its quite likely that the OP didnt do something of that nature but given how poorly the rest of the bike has been treated, who can say? Whether user servicing of this nature is reasonable is arguable but generally these are considered as consumable items and subject to wear and tear and a little care from the user. I would have thought they would sort the hub free as a goodwill gesture but I am wary of how the OP has acted and whether they have affected any goodwill by being abrasive and difficult to deal with. The demeanor with which you ask someone in a shop to help you often has a massive bearing on how helpful they are.0
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Afternoon ,
Carole has asked me to answer the more technical questions you have posed with regard frequent servicing of more hidden/integral parts of the bike.
The pictures you are referring to are of the part which has broken. The freehub body is a sealed unit which is not easily accessible and would only be examined during a hub service. The point that is being made with regard servicing is that warranties only cover manufacturing defects. Any component part which when stripped apart shows signs of rust would not constitute a manufacturing defect. Had the bike had a regular hub service, the seals could be inspected and maintained and the grease levels may have been topped up where appropriate.
There are two problems here. One is the term warranty. As above, this applies only to manufacturing defects. If the freehub had failed because a component had snapped for example, it might be considered warranty. In this case the freehub has failed because of water ingress, rust and a lack of grease. This would rule out warranty as it was not in this condition when the bike was sold (or when it was serviced).
If one is arguing whether a part is fit for purpose i.e. one acknowledges that it is not a manufacturing defect but one feels it should have lasted longer, the issue becomes somewhat more subjective. To decide if an item is fit for purpose, the purpose must be clearly defined and, in addition to this, there will usually be a caveat along the lines of 'so long as regular maintenance procedures are carried out'. The condition of the part at this point again becomes key. If the freehub body was in good condition and had simply worn out (springs had lost tension, pawls or ratchet had worn down etc.) then maybe we could argue that it was not fit for purpose. Because these parts are showing signs of significant water ingress and a distinct lack of grease, any manufacturer will argue that it has not been maintained well enough for your specific usage. They will back this up by the volume of units they produce and the numbers which show significant levels of water ingress. This would be their defence against 'defective' seals.
I hope the above makes sense. I have deliberately tried to avoid any subjective language and describe the way in which manufacturers view their parts and the expected life and maintenance procedures associated with them.
I am well aware this conversation could get very complicated being shared between three people so by all means, simply respond to Carole who is now dealing with this in its entirety. I have copied her in on this email so she should be fully up to speed.
Any further technical questions, please feel free to ask.
Kind regards,
Ted
Evans Cycles
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Evans Cycles is the trading name of F.W. Evans Cycles (UK) Ltd. Registered Office: Camino Park, James Watt Way, Crawley, West Sussex RH10 9TZ. Company Number: 2784079. VAT Number: 927-170-229. Registered in the UK
Mar 8
to macclesfield.m., Carole
Thanks Ted,
If the bit that has broken is a sealed unit how could I maintain this? Also with it being a sealed unit surely that fact water has got into it would suggest a manufacturing defect?
The bike was only serviced a few months ago by yourselves. How often do I need to get the part serviced to ensure it lasts longer than 4 months?
Now I am no expert, but from the noise it made and how it broke something did break inside it? Which again would suggest a manufacturing defect?
Thanks,
Nick.
Sent from my iPhone
On 8 Mar 2016, at 15:59, macclesfield.manager@evanscycles.com wrote:
Afternoon
Carole has asked me to answer the more technical questions you have posed with regard frequent servicing of more hidden/integral parts of the bike.
The pictures you are referring to are of the part which has broken. The freehub body is a sealed unit which is not easily accessible and would only be examined during a hub service. The point that is being made with regard servicing is that warranties only cover manufacturing defects. Any component part which when stripped apart shows signsh of rust would not constitute a manufacturing defect. Had the bike had a regular hub service, the seals could be inspected and maintained and the grease levels may have been topped up where appropriate.
There are two problems here. One is the term warranty. As above, this applies only to manufacturing defects. If the freehub had failed because a component had snapped for example, it might be considered warranty. In this case the freehub has failed because of water ingress, rust and a lack of grease. This would rule out warranty as it was not in this condition when the bike was sold (or when it was serviced).
If one is arguing whether a part is fit for purpose i.e. one acknowledges that it is not a manufacturing defect but one feels it should have lasted longer, the issue becomes somewhat more subjective. To decide if an item is fit for purpose, the purpose must be clearly defined and, in addition to this, there will usually be a caveat along the lines of 'so long as regular maintenance procedures are carried out'. The condition of the part at this point again becomes key. If the freehub body was in good condition and had simply worn out (springs had lost tension, pawls or ratchet had worn down etc.) then maybe we could argue that it was not fit for purpose. Because these parts are showing signs of significant water ingress and a distinct lack of grease, any manufacturer will argue that it has not been maintained well enough for your specific usage. They will back this up by the volume of units they produce and the numbers which show significant levels of water ingress. This would be their defence against 'defective' seals.
I hope the above makes sense. I have deliberately tried to avoid any subjective language and describe the way in which manufacturers view their parts and the expected life and maintenance procedures associated with them.
I am well aware this conversation could get very complicated being shared between three people so by all means, simply respond to Carole who is now dealing with this in its entirety. I have copied her in on this email so she should be fully up to speed.
Any further technical questions, please feel free to ask.
Kind regards,
Ted
Evans Cycles
macclesfield.manager@evanscycles.com
Mar 8
to me, Carole
Hi Nick,
To keep it simple, I have answered your questions below.
Regards,
Ted
Original Message
From: "Nick"
Sent: Tuesday, 8 March, 2016 16:19
To: macclesfield.manager@evanscycles.com
Cc: "Carole Harris" <carole.harris@evanscycles.com>
Subject: Re: Ongoing complaint
Thanks Ted,
If the bit that has broken is a sealed unit how could I maintain this? Also with it being a sealed unit surely that fact water has got into it would suggest a manufacturing defect? The freehub has two sides to it. One is easily serviceable and would be done routinely in maintaining a hub. The rear of the freehub is less accessible and although it is supposed to be a sealed unit, there is often a way of getting some grease in there should it be deemed necessary. Both sides needed attention. As for the sealing of the hub, they are by no means water proof. The seals are designed to keep the kind of water out that you are likely to encounter when riding in bad weather. If the bike were to be washed with a hose pipe or left in the rain for a prolonged period of time, this is not the kind of ingress the seals are designed to withstand. As I mentioned at the end of my last message, manufacturers would use the volume of sales to back this up i.e. they can reasonably assume that most people use the product as intended and as very few people have problems, the product, including its seals are fit for purpose.
The bike was only serviced a few months ago by yourselves. How often do I need to get the part serviced to ensure it lasts longer than 4 months? Sadly this is a how long is a piece of string type question. A bike which is only ridden in good weather, with a light rider with smooth pedalling technique may only need to service their hubs yearly. If we take myself as an example, I weigh over 100kg, ride in all weathers on rough roads for upwards of 100 miles a week and I trashed by rear hub within the space of a couple of months. I rebuilt my rear wheel on to a higher spec hub (a MTB hub actually) knowing that this would be of higher quality than the hub that came as standard on my bike. This hub will again still need maintenance but hopefully less of it and the expected life will be a little longer.
Now I am no expert, but from the noise it made and how it broke something did break inside it? Which again would suggest a manufacturing defect? The question here would be whether whatever broke inside would have broken had the hub been kept in top condition. As the hub wasn't in top condition, this is something we could only speculate on. The likelihood is that the build up of dirt and lack of grease has led to undue stress being applied to an internal component causing it to break or it may be the case that there is nothing actually broken it has just seized up because of the build up of grit and lack of grease.
Thanks,
Nick.
Sent from my iPhone
On 8 Mar 2016, at 15:59, macclesfield.manager@evanscycles.com wrote:
Afternoon
Carole has asked me to answer the more technical questions you have posed with regard frequent servicing of more hidden/integral parts of the bike.
The pictures you are referring to are of the part which has broken. The freehub body is a sealed unit which is not easily accessible and would only be examined during a hub service. The point that is being made with regard servicing is that warranties only cover manufacturing defects. Any component part which when stripped apart shows signsh of rust would not constitute a manufacturing defect. Had the bike had a regular hub service, the seals could be inspected and maintained and the grease levels may have been topped up where appropriate.
There are two problems here. One is the term warranty. As above, this applies only to manufacturing defects. If the freehub had failed because a component had snapped for example, it might be considered warranty. In this case the freehub has failed because of water ingress, rust and a lack of grease. This would rule out warranty as it was not in this condition when the bike was sold (or when it was serviced)..
If one is arguing whether a part is fit for purpose i.e. one acknowledges that it is not a manufacturing defect but one feels it should have lasted longer, the issue becomes somewhat more subjective. To decide if an item is fit for purpose, the purpose must be clearly defined and, in addition to this, there will usually be a caveat along the lines of 'so long as regular maintenance procedures are carried out'. The condition of the part at this point again becomes key. If the freehub body was in good condition and had simply worn out (springs had lost tension, pawls or ratchet had worn down etc.) then maybe we could argue that it was not fit for purpose. Because these parts are showing signs of significant water ingress and a distinct lack of grease, any manufacturer will argue that it has not been maintained well enough for your specific usage. They will back this up by the volume of units they produce and the numbers which show significant levels of water ingress. This would be their defence against 'defective' seals.
I hope the above makes sense. I have deliberately tried to avoid any subjective language and describe the way in which manufacturers view their parts and the expected life and maintenance procedures associated with them.
I am well aware this conversation could get very complicated being shared between three people so by all means, simply respond to Carole who is now dealing with this in its entirety. I have copied her in on this email so she should be fully up to speed.
Any further technical questions, please feel free to ask.
Kind regards,
Ted
Evans Cycles
Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to
This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please phone to follow up any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. Evans Cycles cannot guarantee the integrity and security of this message on the Internet.
Evans Cycles is the trading name of F.W. Evans Cycles (UK) Ltd. Registered Office: Camino Park, James Watt Way, Crawley, West Sussex RH10 9TZ. Company Number: 2784079. VAT Number: 927-170-229. Registered in the UK
Evans Cycles
Nick
Mar 8
to macclesfield.m., Carole
Thanks Ted,
Please can you send me a quote just to replace the broken part.
Evans Cycles
Evans Cycles
Ted Gordon - Evans Cycles Macclesfield
Mar 8
to me
Hi Nick,
I can't get a proper price until tomorrow but you would be looking at around £40-50 as an educated guess including the hub service needed to fit it which would include new bearings and grease.
I'll get a better quote to you tomorrow.
Regards,
Ted
Sent from my Sony Xperia™ smartphone
---- Nick wrote ----
Evans Cycles
Evans Cycles
Evans Cycles
Nick
Mar 8
to Ted
Thanks Ted,
Look forward to receiving it.
I obviously can't hide my disappointment in the fact that your colleague suggested I have neglected the bike. Following our chat after the 6 week service I have kept to a maintenance schedule whereby I clean the bike with soapy water on a weekly basis and get rid of all the gunk that has collected and oil the chain.
I'm not sure what else I could've done without a workshop as well equipped as yours.
It's a shame its not as rugged as a mountain bike..
Evans Cycles
Evans Cycles
Evans Cycles
macclesfield.manager@evanscycles.com
Mar 9
to me, Carole
Afternoon,
Sorry for the delay, it has been a bit mental here today.
I have spoken with my workshop manager and looked over your hub again and there are several options:
Option 1: Replacement freehub and hub service. (£20 freehub, £22 labour, grease and bearings.) The concern with this option is that the bearing surfaces on the hub itself are also worn.. This means the wheel will work again but it would be hard to say how long for and it would definitely need frequent maintenance work to remain smooth.
Option 2: Complete replacement hub and wheel rebuild. £22.49-35.99 for the hub (the dearer option is the hub I use) plus £40 labour and spokes for the rebuild. Total £62.49-75.99
Option 3: Replacement rear wheel. Higher spec rear wheel using sealed cartridge bearings which are easier to replace and are better sealed in the first place. One such wheel would be https://www.evanscycles.com/mavic-aksiu ... 6-EV254260 which costs £82.80.
I don't think it will come as a surprise to hear that we would recommend either option 2 or ideally option 3.
I hope that is clear and understandable, if not, let me know and I will endeavour to elaborate.
Kind regards,
Ted
Original Message
From: "Nick"
Thanks Ted,
If the bit that has broken is a sealed unit how could I maintain this? Also with it being a sealed unit surely that fact water has got into it would suggest a manufacturing defect? The freehub has two sides to it. One is easily serviceable and would be done routinely in maintaining a hub. The rear of the freehub is less accessible and although it is supposed to be a sealed unit, there is often a way of getting some grease in there should it be deemed necessary. Both sides needed attention. As for the sealing of the hub, they are by no means water proof. The seals are designed to keep the kind of water out that you are likely to encounter when riding in bad weather. If the bike were to be washed with a hose pipe or left in the rain for a prolonged period of time, this is not the kind of ingress the seals are designed to withstand.. As I mentioned at the end of my last message, manufacturers would use the volume of sales to back this up i.e. they can reasonably assume that most people use the product as intended and as very few people have problems, the product, including its seals are fit for purpose.
The bike was only serviced a few months ago by yourselves. How often do I need to get the part serviced to ensure it lasts longer than 4 months? Sadly this is a how long is a piece of string type question. A bike which is only ridden in good weather, with a light rider with smooth pedalling technique may only need to service their hubs yearly. If we take myself as an example, I weigh over 100kg, ride in all weathers on rough roads for upwards of 100 miles a week and I trashed by rear hub within the space of a couple of months. I rebuilt my rear wheel on to a higher spec hub (a MTB hub actually) knowing that this would be of higher quality than the hub that came as standard on my bike. This hub will again still need maintenance but hopefully less of it and the expected life will be a little longer.
Now I am no expert, but from the noise it made and how it broke something did break inside it? Which again would suggest a manufacturing defect? The question here would be whether whatever broke inside would have broken had the hub been kept in top condition. As the hub wasn't in top condition, this is something we could only speculate on. The likelihood is that the build up of dirt and lack of grease has led to undue stress being applied to an internal component causing it to break or it may be the case that there is nothing actually broken it has just seized up because of the build up of grit and lack of grease.
Thanks,
Nick.
Sent from my iPhone
On 8 Mar 2016, at 15:59, macclesfield.manager@evanscycles.com wrote:
Afternoon,
Carole has asked me to answer the more technical questions you have posed with regard frequent servicing of more hidden/integral parts of the bike.
The pictures you are referring to are of the part which has broken. The freehub body is a sealed unit which is not easily accessible and would only be examined during a hub service. The point that is being made with regard servicing is that warranties only cover manufacturing defects. Any component part which when stripped apart shows signsh of rust would not constitute a manufacturing defect. Had the bike had a regular hub service, the seals could be inspected and maintained and the grease levels may have been topped up where appropriate.
There are two problems here. One is the term warranty. As above, this applies only to manufacturing defects. If the freehub had failed because a component had snapped for example, it might be considered warranty.. In this case the freehub has failed because of water ingress, rust and a lack of grease. This would rule out warranty as it was not in this condition when the bike was sold (or when it was serviced)..
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Nick
Mar 11 (12 days ago)
to macclesfield.m.
Hi Ted,
Can you crack on with option 1 please?
I cant spend any more money with you guys knowing the attitude of your customer services department.
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Ted Gordon - Evans Cycles Macclesfield
Mar 15 (8 days ago)
to macclesfield.w., me, Carole
Hi Nick,
I am still waiting to get final pricing on the part we need for your wheel.
I have been talking at length though with our customer relations team and my workshop manager and we have additional concerns. I have been looking at your original quote today and we have a mutual concern that only doing half the job could still leave the bike in a less than road-worthy condition.
If we undertake part of the job and give the bike back to you in a condition we still consider to be sub-standard, were anything to go wrong as a result of the other components failing, it would be hard for us to absolve ourself of responsibility.
It is the opinion of both customer relations and the workshop that if we aren't able to complete the whole job, to avoid any potential liability, we should refuse to carry out any work at all.
I know this is not what you want to hear but I do have to ensure that I make the most sensible and professional decision for our store and our reputation. I am sure you can understand that a dissatisfied customer is bad for our reputation but a customer involved in an accident because of a decision we made is far worse.
Kind regards,
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Nick>
Mar 21 (2 days ago)
to Ted, Carole, Evans
Hi Ted,
I have just seen this message, it was in my junk file. I was wondering over the weekend where you were up to regarding the fix and this answers my question.
Just so I am clear on this. You are not going to fix any part of my bike unless I spend £200 with Evans Cycles? Within that work you will fit a new wheel that has a part that is " better sealed in the first place"?? I would hope that part on the bike I bought was adequately sealed in the first place. In fact I have been asking for evidence of the fact this seal was adequate and it has not been provided.
What is most annoying and upsetting is I was more than willing to spend the full allocation of my ride to work budget (£1000) but was convinced by one of your sales guys to go for the Hoy. I was assured this matched my requirements, even the sales blurb on your website describes is as “as rugged as a mountain bike”. I obviously realise now I was being pushed down the “own-brand route” where I would have rather spent the money at the start of the process on a bike where parts were better sealed in the first place and have been left with a bike that is not fit for purpose.
Having taken the advice of your sales guys when I bought the bike, please forgive me for not being able to trust it again with regards to the fix. I will be reporting Evans to the relevant authorities for not being compliant with the Sale of Goods Act; Consumer Rights Act 2015.
Please let me know when I can pick up what is left of my bike.
Cheers,
Evans Cycles
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Carole Harris
Mar 21 (2 days ago)
to me, Macclesfield
Dear,
As your bicycle is an unfit state, it has been decided that to just fix the part you have asked us to do may cause concern over safety if the other worn parts are not replace, you are of course not obliged to have the full amount of work required, carried out by us.
We, however are not obliged to carry out work on a bicycle that is now so neglected that it may be unsafe to just fix certain issues for you.
As you have been advised on several occasions, the hub was thoroughly inspected and no fault or defect was found, the issue was due to wear and tear and lack of maintenance.
We are, as a company, fully compliant with the Sale of Goods Act and Consumer Rights Act , and as you have been advised we will supply all of the information and photographs that we have of your bicycle to your legal representative.
I would like to advise you that we do not subscribe to any ADR services and would only supply information to a formal legal body.
Yours sincerely,
Carole Harris
Customer Relations Executive
From: Nick
Sent: 21 March 2016 13:48
To: Macclesfield Manager <macclesfield.manager@evanscycles.com>
Cc: Carole Harris <carole.harris@evanscycles.com>; Macclesfield Workshop <macclesfield.workshop@evanscycles.com>
Subject: Re: Ongoing complaint
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Nick
Mar 21 (2 days ago)
to Carole, Macclesfield
I asked when I could pick my bike up Carole? Not what ADR services you subscribe to….
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macclesfield.manager@evanscycles.com
Mar 21 (2 days ago)
to me, Carole
Hi Nick,
I am sorry that you feel you have been put in this situation by poor advice on our part. I am sure you do not want me to go over old ground but I feel it is worth saying that we do not offer staff incentives that detract from advising on what we think is most appropriate for that individual.
Your bike will be available for you to collect any time after 11am tomorrow.
Regards,
Ted
Original Message
From: "Nick"
Sent: Monday, 21 March, 2016 13:47
To: "Ted Gordon - Evans Cycles Macclesfield" <macclesfield.manager@evanscycles.com>
Cc: "Carole Harris" <carole.harris@evanscycles.com>, "Evans Cycle Central Workshop" <macclesfield.workshop@evanscycles.com>
Subject: Re: Ongoing complaint
Hi Ted,
I have just seen this message, it was in my junk file. I was wondering over the weekend where you were up to regarding the fix and this answers my question.
Just so I am clear on this. You are not going to fix any part of my bike unless I spend £200 with Evans Cycles? Within that work you will fit a new wheel that has a part that is " better sealed in the first place"?? I would hope that part on the bike I bought was adequately sealed in the first place. In fact I have been asking for evidence of the fact this seal was adequate and it has not been provided.
What is most annoying and upsetting is I was more than willing to spend the full allocation of my ride to work budget (£1000) but was convinced by one of your sales guys to go for the Hoy.. I was assured this matched my requirements, even the sales blurb on your website describes is as “as rugged as a mountain bike”. I obviously realise now I was being pushed down the “own-brand route” where I would have rather spent the money at the start of the process on a bike where parts were better sealed in the first place and have been left with a bike that is not fit for purpose.
Option 1: Replacement freehub and hub service. (£20 freehub, £22 labour, grease and bearings.) The concern with this option is that the bearing surfaces on the hub itself are also worn... This means the wheel will work again but it would be hard to say how long for and it would definitely need frequent maintenance work to remain smooth.
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Nick
Mar 21 (2 days ago)
to macclesfield.m., Carole
I'm not annoyed about the advice, I'm pissed off it lasted 4 months..
Sent from my iPhone
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macclesfield.manager@evanscycles.com
Mar 22 (1 day ago)
to me, Carole
Good morning ,
This is just a courtesy email to let you know that your bike is still OK for you to collect after 11. It is also to let you know that because we had to do some investigation work, your rear wheel has been disassembled. We have not put it back together as it is not fit to ride and as it didn't work when you dropped it off, I made the decision that you were no worse off for it being in pieces. They are all bagged up and will make the job of re-assembling it at a later date easier because the hub or wheel will have to be replaced as we have discussed.
Any queries, please feel free to call the shop. I will be in a meeting until around 1pm but Chris in the workshop will be able to help you.
Regards,
Ted
Original Message
From: "Nick" <njp1975@googlemail.com>
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This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please phone to follow up any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines.. Evans Cycles cannot guarantee the integrity and security of this message on the Internet.
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Nick
Mar 22 (1 day ago)
to macclesfield.m., Carole
Thanks Ted,
My wife (Nicki) will be in shortly to collect it.
Nick
Sent from my iPhone0 -
Mate you are going to need to edit that....so people can read it.
I totally agree that a commuter hub should go 4 months without a service...
I would imagine that the damage to the hub (in that time frame) is down to a faulty seal in the first place hence a manufacturing defect.
Regardless Evans sell lots of 700c wheels and lots are well under £100 (for the whole wheel) some are under £50
A chain and cassette are likewise .. well under £100 (£100 is a very expansive chain and cassette)
If you post the bike I'm sure the forumites can advise on a much cheaper solution from Evans competitors!
An interesting question I don't know the answer to is who owns the bike? (Presumably the cycle to work scheme)0 -
Having read that, I cant see anything wrong with their response. If you had approached them differently, they may have given you the benefit of the doubt and been more helpful to retain you as a customer but I think you were too confrontational and they closed up as a result.
Water can get in past a seal in one wash with a jetwash, the day after it has been serviced. Even on a wheel with 'better seals'. There are other forms of abuse that could also do similar.
The bike has clearly been neglected/abused from the photos and is consistent with everything Evans are saying.
I am not surprised that on reflection they decided not to just replace the freehub as the cups and cones sound like they are knackered on the wheel too - so you would be back again in 5 minutes saying that the wheel is running rough and that this is their fault.
If it had been me, I might have offered to give you a replacement wheel at cost price as a compromise gesture, but that depends on whether you had rubbed me up the wrong way and whether I thought you would just be bringing that wheel back soon because something had gone wrong with that.
Sorry mate but you just have to give up as you are wrong. Its not Evans fault - yes, they could have been more helpful and done stuff for free or half a job but why should they? especially when they were clearly shown that you would be back again with more problems later.
The second LBS are saying to repace the wheel because not just the freehub but the whole hub is knackered and it wouldnt be worth rebuilding it. Nothing to do with cheap or 'spurious' parts. That they are not telling you to replace the casette and chain is kind of surprising and would give me doubts about them, if anyone...0 -
Finally tried to make sense of that email trail.
Yes, you went in hot and hard a bit early, but it looks like the facts appear to be :
1) Evans told you that Hoy Route met your needs ( Asssuming you said "riding in bad weather in mud, gave them your weight etc)
2) There wasn't a reported problem at the 6 week inspection. What does the 6 week inspection include with Evans? Typically it's a basic check it's safe to ride, and to counter cable stretch. Would they have picked level of pitting up? Do you have any pictures of the bike around this time?
3) You haven't used a hose pipe on the bike since the 6 week inspection but have continued to clean your bike( but note - https://www.evanscycles.com/coffeestop/ ... your-bike/ says "spray over the bike to remove the dirt" , whereas https://www.evanscycles.com/coffeestop/ ... your-bike/ says "Wipe the bike with clean water and a rag or sponge, then rinse again to remove any residue")
4) The bike didn't come with any guidance/service manual for cleaning/servicing the Hub
Therefore, you could, if you wanted to, go SOGA on them via a small claims court. a new car or motorbike comes with an indepth service manual, included recommended maintainance periods, and the jobs to be done.
Therefore, in correlation, a bicycle should have the same. If yours didn't, then you "might" have a case of evidence against them by the lack of supporting information.
It's quite possible that you'd already got the water into the hub before the 6 week service, but it wasn't noticeable until later. Or, that you hadn't actually ridden it particularly much before that service.
However, you could have tried the nicely-nicely route earlier, but that's not really possible now.
Sorry to hear you've not got a working bike though :-(Intent on Cycling Commuting on a budget, but keep on breaking/crashing/finding nice stuff to buy.
Bike 1 (Broken) - Bike 2(Borked) - Bike 3(broken spokes) - Bike 4( Needs Work) - Bike 5 (in bits) - Bike 6* ...0 -
When I took the bike to the shop, it had broken on the ride home, it was easier to take the bike to the open shop and jog home. That evening it had been raining following a long cold spell when the roads had been gritted several times.
When first took the bike one of the mechanics said it was the free wheel mechanism that had broken. They said at the time it should be covered on the warranty and I'd have to pay labour to fit it. I was happy with that.
The next day I get a call to say the hub had clearly had no grease in it for a while, they could tell this from the way it had worn. They also tell me that my entire drive train needs replacing. I ask about the warranty and they said because of the wear it wouldn't be covered. I asked if the would mind approaching the manufacturer and ask, they wouldn't. They then said it was because I had done too many miles on my bike. I thought this was odd as most warranties are time based not usage based.
So as the warranty is between me and the manufacture I went to the Hoy website and completed their contact form asking about the warranty. I got an email reply stating that the frame is covered for 12 months and the parts for 3. However this email comes from an Evans email address.. My wife digs out the paperwork that came with the bike. Turns out it's all covered for 12 months.
It's only at this point that I am made aware that Evans actually make the bikes and this is where customer services become involved I went actually went to Hoy directly to keep my relationship positive with the guys in the shop. This is where it all went down hill. It's was their customer services "abrasive" attitude the drove me to mine.
The bike now has an new back wheel. I still have the same chain, cassette, bottom bracket and according to my LBS there is plenty of life left in them. Total cost £80.0 -
Another tack is he took it to trained bike dealers and mechanics for a 6 week inspection.Wolfsbane2k wrote:Finally tried to make sense of that email trail.
Yes, you went in hot and hard a bit early, but it looks like the facts appear to be :
1) Evans told you that Hoy Route met your needs ( Asssuming you said "riding in bad weather in mud, gave them your weight etc)
2) There wasn't a reported problem at the 6 week inspection. What does the 6 week inspection include with Evans? Typically it's a basic check it's safe to ride, and to counter cable stretch. Would they have picked level of pitting up? Do you have any pictures of the bike around this time?
EITHER they pick it up.... or they don't. If they don't (which we both know is unlikely) then it is most certainly not something a consumer could possibly pick up.
Frankly though it's either a really really crap hub.... OR the seals were broken/mis-fitted or both. (Given 4 months)
Good catch....3) You haven't used a hose pipe on the bike since the 6 week inspection but have continued to clean your bike( but note - https://www.evanscycles.com/coffeestop/ ... your-bike/ says "spray over the bike to remove the dirt" , whereas https://www.evanscycles.com/coffeestop/ ... your-bike/ says "Wipe the bike with clean water and a rag or sponge, then rinse again to remove any residue")
Good point.... (as we both know it didn't)4) The bike didn't come with any guidance/service manual for cleaning/servicing the HubTherefore, you could, if you wanted to, go SOGA on them via a small claims court. a new car or motorbike comes with an indepth service manual, included recommended maintainance periods, and the jobs to be done.
Therefore, in correlation, a bicycle should have the same. If yours didn't, then you "might" have a case of evidence against them by the lack of supporting information.
I'm unsure on SOGA as they are not the actual owner but the cycle scheme? I'm no expert but there may actually be better/stronger legislation for hire purchase.
I hose the offroad bikes weekly in winter, sometimes twice weekly or more.... I often do the chain in washing up liquid as a first pass ... (before using the muck off) and monthly take the chains off completely and stick in a bowl of fairy and hot water. (After which they are dried and stuck in a bag with WD40 then taken out wiped down and oiled)I'm also however wondering about point 3. Was this specifically stated in any manual?
My commuting bike has been outside all winter.... its 6-7 years old and a cheap Giant hybrid (much cheaper than the OP's bike) with Acera Groupset.. and everything works perfectly. I stripped the hubs last Autumn after 5 years "abuse" and they were perfect..... I re-greased them as they were stripped down but they didn't need it.
Short of a pressure washer I can't see how and even if some water got in it shouldn't have removed the grease? Unless he took degreaser to the hubs... (WD40?) I'm struggling to see how the grease came out with intact (if poor) seals in 6 weeks.It's quite possible that you'd already got the water into the hub before the 6 week service, but it wasn't noticeable until later. Or, that you hadn't actually ridden it particularly much before that service.0 -
I’ve drawn a line under my relationship with Hoy/Evans. If my maintenance was perfect I would be more bothered. I do genuinely feel that they have tried to rip me off by trying selling me bits the bike just doesn’t need. When I bought the bike I said I wanted a work horse. I didn’t get one. My LBS is looking at the original hub, as they think it may not be made by company that the specs say it’s made by. All the parts on the bike are cheap or a few years old. I had £1000 to spend, but was still advised to buy the Hoy. It will be paid off on October and I will start again…
This experience will make me up my game in terms of bike maintenance and will never veer away from my LBS ever again.
The good news is, because I have been riding my mountain bike for the last 3 weeks on my normal route. Jumped on my (fixed) commuter this morning and broke my PB for top speed, average speed and door to door time…
Thanks for all your input.
Nick.0 -
There is stronger protection for HP, but it's not HP is it, it's a lease scheme, cycle to work CAN NOT be HP.Steve-XcT wrote:I'm unsure on SOGA as they are not the actual owner but the cycle scheme? I'm no expert but there may actually be better/stronger legislation for hire purchase.Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.0 -
The Rookie wrote:
There is stronger protection for HP, but it's not HP is it, it's a lease scheme, cycle to work CAN NOT be HP.Steve-XcT wrote:I'm unsure on SOGA as they are not the actual owner but the cycle scheme? I'm no expert but there may actually be better/stronger legislation for hire purchase.
As I understand it's a lease with an option to buy?
Either way it seems to me he isn't the actual owner of the bike and the bike isn't "sold" so SOGA may be inappropriate?0 -
It is nit a lease with an option to buy, if you read the government guidance there can be no guarantee at the start of the schem of an option to buy as it breaks the fundamental rule that it is a lease scheme, any guaranteed option to buy means it's tax evasion and a criminal offence.Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.0
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I'd say that hub had a severe lack of grease even from new. My Disc Trucker has had 2000 odd miles of being ridden in all weathers, been washed with a karcher, ridden through two winters worth of salt and the darn thing is still on the original chain, cassette and chainrings. I've cleaned the chain twice with a chain tool with kero in it, I've only used proper lube twice, mostly it has been a touch of ATF or spray grease. In fact the only part showing noticeable wear is the largest chainring. The wheels and the XT hubs are as smooth as the day I built the bike.
If the OP specifically asked for a workhorse and the bike was sold as such, then only lasting 4 months is a bit poor, even if it didn't have the easiest life.Disc Trucker
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